WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.640 Before we start with the podcast, we would like to say thank you to all of you who support 00:00:04.640 --> 00:00:12.760 the FSFE's work of money, working for software freedom and producing podcasts cost money. 00:00:12.760 --> 00:00:18.440 Please consider supporting us with our nation under FSFE.org/donate and in the show 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:19.440 notes. 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:24.720 As you implement and ultimately what our views are on these questions or what does technological 00:00:24.720 --> 00:00:30.600 sovereignty mean to us, what activity needs to be undertaken and what do we want to see 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:36.240 to achieve this European technological sovereignty, but also what do we need to do when we look 00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:52.360 at our infrastructure? 00:00:52.360 --> 00:00:54.760 Let's get started. 00:00:54.760 --> 00:00:57.160 Welcome to the software freedom podcast. 00:00:57.160 --> 00:01:00.760 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 00:01:00.760 --> 00:01:05.960 We are a charity that empowers users to take control of technology and I'm Bonnie 00:01:05.960 --> 00:01:06.960 Mary. 00:01:06.960 --> 00:01:10.000 Today I'm here with Alexander Zanda. 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:15.320 Alex is the senior policy consultant for the FSFE and as you have already heard in 00:01:15.320 --> 00:01:20.640 previous episodes in his work for the FSFE, he monitors the current happenings in the 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:26.080 European Union and also pushes for the recognition of free software. 00:01:26.080 --> 00:01:33.800 In this policy and it will episode, Alex and I will talk about the European technological 00:01:33.800 --> 00:01:37.040 sovereignty and digital infrastructure. 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:38.040 Any? 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:44.880 Yeah, Alex, I'm sorry, I'm a bit, I have a bit of a flu or cold, I hope you can bear 00:01:44.880 --> 00:01:45.880 with me. 00:01:45.880 --> 00:01:50.200 At least we are not in the same room, so you can't get together, I'm so happy that you 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:51.200 can bear with me. 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:54.600 Yeah, thanks for having me again. 00:01:54.600 --> 00:01:58.880 So I had to search in the internet what any is. 00:01:58.880 --> 00:02:00.480 Could you explain this to us a bit? 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:06.720 I know now that it's own infrastructure procedure, but yeah, it's spelled in capital letters 00:02:06.720 --> 00:02:09.880 so it got the feeling there is something bigger behind us. 00:02:09.880 --> 00:02:15.280 Yeah, it's an initiative procedure and it's an initiative procedure from the European 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:16.280 Parliament. 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:23.560 The European Parliament can up with discussions, proposals, reports, initiatives, in this 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:29.520 case, own initiatives to address topics they want to talk about where they have the feeling 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:38.720 that, for example, the European Commission is not working enough on some things or basically 00:02:38.720 --> 00:02:44.680 these reports are to nudge the Commission to get active and also on the same time to 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:48.600 present the views of the European Parliament towards the Commission. 00:02:48.600 --> 00:02:53.880 So since the European Commission is the entity that proposes law in the European Union, 00:02:53.880 --> 00:02:59.080 so you can basically say that the European Parliament is asking with this own initiative 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:06.080 procedure with this report for lawmaking which then should come from the European Commission. 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:13.000 So one could say this is preparatory work from the European Parliament to address a topic 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:18.920 in this case, European technological sovereignty and digital infrastructure where they believe 00:03:18.920 --> 00:03:23.720 that they want to present some views and that the European Commission, like based on these 00:03:23.720 --> 00:03:29.920 views, then later on should get active and propose law which is going in this direction. 00:03:29.920 --> 00:03:39.960 So it's first basically a request to get active in a specific area to identify gaps in lawmaking 00:03:40.040 --> 00:03:46.040 and also second to also already present some positions and tell the Commission the views 00:03:46.040 --> 00:03:51.880 of the European Parliament in order to allow their majorities afterwards so that the Commission 00:03:51.880 --> 00:03:57.320 is presenting something which also finds majorities later in the Parliament, for example. 00:03:57.320 --> 00:04:03.960 So that's the procedure and so one could say so this is happening in the EATRA 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:09.480 committee in this case so that's the committee for industry and the members of this committee 00:04:09.480 --> 00:04:16.120 and the Parliament said we have some issues with sovereignty and our digital infrastructure. 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:20.040 We need to get active here and that's why they decided to write a report. 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:25.560 This was happening now so the report, the Trump report was presented in the European Parliament 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:30.600 and now the European Parliament discusses the proposal of the rapporteur and then we come up as 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:35.800 final report and push this towards member states and the Commission to get active in this area. 00:04:37.320 --> 00:04:41.000 All right thank you very much one question regarding the any process. 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:48.120 Does this often lead to a law then or is this most often then without any effect? 00:04:49.080 --> 00:04:55.640 No it's it normally leads to something so the latest example we all know is for example the AI 00:04:55.720 --> 00:05:02.040 Act so the European Parliament started to work on the topic of AI very very early many many years ago. 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:07.640 They started to do this with this initiative report they even created their own committee for this 00:05:07.640 --> 00:05:12.920 just to work on this topic and to present. So the position of the European Parliament 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:18.840 already to the Commission while they were working on their own proposal so it's very common 00:05:18.840 --> 00:05:24.280 that the European Parliament gets active and tells the Commission where they want to see law 00:05:24.280 --> 00:05:31.240 however the Commission do not have to react but in terms of goodwill and democracy normally the 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:36.680 Commission picks these reports up they are also part of the debate so they are also sitting in 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:42.360 the European Parliament giving statements to the report giving their views on the report so they 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:50.280 also already interact during this procedure with the European Parliament and normally it won't be 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:57.160 the case that the Commission then proposes a law with exactly the same terms or the exactly 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:02.680 the same scope but normally they come up with laws where they pick up these demands and requests 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:09.560 from the European Parliament and transfer this then into a law proposal so it's it's not that this 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:17.400 work is not considered by anyone it's it's definitely a useful procedure so to say first of all to 00:06:17.400 --> 00:06:22.760 to find already positions in the Parliament and it's also good for the European Commission to 00:06:22.760 --> 00:06:29.240 already learn before they start drafting a law what could be potential debates in the Parliament 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:35.480 what could be potential demands so that they can already pick them up in their specific drafts 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:41.320 and if you look at the European Commission's work program and their agenda of the next term 00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:47.320 so the next five years it's definitely something they also want to work on so they also talk 00:06:47.320 --> 00:06:53.000 about sovereignty they also talk about digital infrastructure and they also talk a lot about 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:58.040 how to protect this how a European answer to this could look like in particular in these changing 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:04.600 times and yeah it's to be expected that the European Commission will also propose law on the topic 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:09.320 that the European Parliament works on at the moment so it's it there will be definitely a follow-up 00:07:09.320 --> 00:07:17.960 I think all right before we dive into the procedure or the report you also mentioned a word 00:07:17.960 --> 00:07:25.000 little perter and now that this is the person who is active on this but I also guess they're 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:33.240 more than one person could you briefly outline who is behind this any now absolutely so every 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:38.920 report in the European Parliament be it such a own initiative report or be it a report on a 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:44.680 Commission proposal like in the Cyber Resilience Act or in the Copyright Debate so every every 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:51.160 file every report gets a so-called repertoire so this is the responsible person in the European 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:57.480 Parliament leading the debate for the European Parliament until it gets into the plenary and gets 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:04.360 a vote so this is basically the person who comes up with a very first draft so basically if it's 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:10.840 a Commission proposal an answer to the Commission proposal so one could say or in this own initiative 00:08:10.840 --> 00:08:17.320 report so the very first draft the world sees is written by this repertoire so and then this 00:08:17.320 --> 00:08:23.400 repertoire is coming from a specific group so it could be a social democrat it can be a green one 00:08:23.400 --> 00:08:30.600 it can be a conservative so every group has so so to say the right to send reperters to reports 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:37.160 but as that there can be only one repertoire but the other groups also send so-called shadow 00:08:37.160 --> 00:08:44.920 reperters the shadow reperters are then the leading persons for this file from a specific group so 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:50.600 ultimately what you have you have a leading repertoire coming from a group and then from all the 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:55.320 other groups that are in the European Parliament they send a shadow repertoire so that there's 00:08:55.320 --> 00:09:00.760 basically one person from each group working on this file and it's being responsible for this file 00:09:01.400 --> 00:09:07.400 so and these are the most important persons if you want to yeah lobby around these documents or 00:09:07.400 --> 00:09:13.480 reports and if you want to reach out you normally reach out to the offices of the reperters or shadow 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:21.720 reperters because they are the ones guiding with the debate they are coming up with amendments and 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:26.600 negotiate these amendments to come up with so-called compromise amendments they are the ones who 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:32.520 prepare the voting list so they advise how the how the whole group should vote on this and this 00:09:32.520 --> 00:09:38.600 is how basically a position is formed in the European Parliament then the committee votes on it 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:42.760 and from the committee it is transferred to the plenary where then all members of the European 00:09:42.760 --> 00:09:47.720 Parliament vote on this and to organize this they have these so-called reperters and shadow 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:53.400 reperters who help to find the compromise on the text and to help to find majority so that's 00:09:53.400 --> 00:09:58.680 basically their role so this means they're very close to the text they negotiate text they come 00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:04.600 up with new ideas they find majority so that's why these are very important roles and positions 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:11.160 in this procedure however also other members of the Parliament and members of other groups can 00:10:11.160 --> 00:10:17.480 also contribute to these reports by amendments so they can say I want to delete this part I want to 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:22.760 add a new word I want to add a completely new idea and all of these amendments yeah they need 00:10:22.760 --> 00:10:26.920 to be discussed they need to be analyzed they need to be streamlined and they need to find 00:10:26.920 --> 00:10:33.960 majorities and this is the work of these reperters so you can basically say it's comparable to a 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:41.400 share part in other Parliament or assistance in other Parliament that help to come up with a final 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:48.280 text so they have a very important role since they are basically the ones who are thriving a file 00:10:48.280 --> 00:10:55.160 so one could say so those are the people you talk to when you want to have free software in there 00:10:55.800 --> 00:11:00.520 absolutely so I definitely talk to them I also talk to others so as said there are sometimes 00:11:00.520 --> 00:11:05.720 also other members who are active in a specific file so you not only have one person working on 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:10.600 digitally topics you have a few and you want to reach out to all of them however the most 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:17.720 influential person in a file is normally the rapporteur and so that's why it's so that you should 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:22.200 at least talk to the rapporteurs and the shadow rapporteurs let's say it like this and you might 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:27.880 also want to talk to others who contribute and you see this that they take part in the Parliamentary 00:11:27.880 --> 00:11:33.560 debate so they speak up they present their position so this is a way where you learn about their 00:11:34.280 --> 00:11:40.040 engagement and but also you see this when amendments are tabled so that they are also 00:11:40.040 --> 00:11:45.080 other members other than the rapporteurs who table amendments who want to modify the text who 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:50.040 want to improve the text and these are basically normally the people that are involved in the debate 00:11:50.040 --> 00:11:55.640 and these are the people you want to talk to until the moment there is a vote when there is a vote 00:11:55.640 --> 00:12:00.200 then this is activity for all members and that's a moment where you might want to talk to all 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:04.520 members and tell them vote in this direction vote in that direction because of this and this reason 00:12:05.240 --> 00:12:11.800 but until the moment there is a vote you normally talk with this group of people who are we 00:12:11.800 --> 00:12:16.360 working on this file and normally do not talk that much with people who are not even in the committee 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:23.800 for example all right thank you so much for outlining this now I would say we can dive into the topic 00:12:23.800 --> 00:12:31.240 directly what's the European technological sovereignty and digital infrastructure any about 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:38.440 and yeah who was behind this I mean in in in general one could say the the European Parliament 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:44.760 also like many other actors these days came to the conclusion that we talk a lot about 00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:51.080 sovereignty we talk a lot about technological sovereignty also we talk a lot about our infrastructure 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:57.000 and the question is like what does it mean so how does this sovereignty should look like so we 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:01.320 have some views and we already presented them quite often on what we do believe what 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:06.840 sovereignty means digital sovereignty but there are also others that have other views on this term 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:13.320 so this term is not defined it's very vague and we are using it quite often but we do not really 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:18.520 know what it means and this also means we do not know as European Union and what to do precisely 00:13:18.520 --> 00:13:23.960 so we do some piecework here some piecework there we might label as as something towards 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:29.080 sovereignty but if this is really the case we don't know since it's a lot of piecework and there's 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:36.520 not really a streamline concept for what is digital sovereignty and how do we achieve it what kind 00:13:36.520 --> 00:13:42.600 of actions do we need this does it need slow making does it need funding all of these questions 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:48.600 they are not really addressed by these days however we have many actors who fill this world with 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:53.560 ideas and maybe already activities but nothing is streamlined in particular if you look at the 00:13:53.560 --> 00:13:59.800 European Union 27 member states 27 opinions on something so there is definitely the need 00:13:59.800 --> 00:14:05.160 to define this term a bit more and also to come up with dedicated actions towards this 00:14:05.160 --> 00:14:12.840 so and these are questions that always arise when we talk about sovereignty and the European 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:20.040 way these days towards digitalization so are there things we need to watch out for in this 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:27.480 changing world and what does it mean for us so and in this and as part of this huge debate this 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:32.520 industry committee and that's also important so they come specifically with a few from industry 00:14:32.520 --> 00:14:38.760 policy so that's why it's in the industry committee right they want to address these questions 00:14:39.640 --> 00:14:45.240 this their specific point of view and so they decided as a committee for all groups 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:51.240 proceeding together and they decided we want to give an answer to this question so from our 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:56.600 perspective from the perspective from the industry and research committee we want to tell 00:14:57.800 --> 00:15:02.680 as you can parliament and ultimately what our views are on these questions or what does 00:15:02.680 --> 00:15:09.080 technological sovereignty mean to us what activity needs to be undertaken and and what do we 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:15.000 want to see to achieve this European technological sovereignty but also what do we need to do when we 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:21.880 look at our infrastructure so and it's a pretty planked paper in the beginning since as it's the 00:15:21.880 --> 00:15:27.560 own initiative there's nothing where they respond to but where they pretty much fill a plank 00:15:27.560 --> 00:15:33.880 paper with their ideas and this is organized now we are coming again to the to the procedures and 00:15:33.880 --> 00:15:40.600 the rapporteurs might so important this is organized by giving to report to one rapporteur 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:45.800 and this rapporteur then writes a draft and based on the draft the other groups and meant to this 00:15:45.800 --> 00:15:52.120 report so they they say are we this one is missing or this one is over the top we need to change 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:59.000 this and we want to have I don't know improvements here and there and this is then how normally 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:04.040 such a report is formed however since we have new majorities in the European parliament since the 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:10.760 last term we also have seen that these procedures are not used as they have been used in last 00:16:10.760 --> 00:16:17.800 terms since we have this far right majority if the EPP goes with them and that's something yeah 00:16:17.800 --> 00:16:25.080 we as FSFE here but also I mean members in the parliament try to come up with majorities that 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:31.960 are not formed with far right members or extremist members so and the thing is however since they 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:37.960 are elected they also get reports and in this case the rapporteur for this report for this own 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:45.560 initiative procedure is a French fascist so and this leads to the problem that's basically 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:55.160 from the procedure wise this person it's she's she's called knafos are knafos from the ESN 00:16:55.880 --> 00:17:03.080 group she presented a report and so now the question from a procedure wise is do we really want to 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:10.120 amend to this report basically if we are for example liberal screens or left ones so and that's 00:17:10.120 --> 00:17:15.960 I can imagine that would be the normal procedure but nobody wants to do this so what happened is 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:23.720 that they let the summer person write a report and then in the meantime the other groups came 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:29.880 together these shadow rapporteurs I was just referring to and the progressive ones came together 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:36.360 and thought how can we find a majority without her and how can we still work on the topic since 00:17:36.360 --> 00:17:40.840 the topic is important and since the questions that come from from this report are important and 00:17:40.840 --> 00:17:47.880 need to be addressed what can we do so and their solution is that they basically came up with 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:55.640 amendments that say to every point what summer says delete and proposed new text so what they do 00:17:55.640 --> 00:18:02.120 basically is to say to whatever she said we want to delete this and we want to replace this with 00:18:02.120 --> 00:18:08.040 other text so and this needs to be ultimately voted and could let to a situation that ultimately 00:18:08.040 --> 00:18:15.480 there will be a report which is still under the name of Zara Knafo but that's not a single word 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:21.000 from her still in this report so that could be a solution and then the question is so from a 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:27.960 procedure wise what could happen is that she then says this is far away from what I think and so 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:35.640 I will list for my name from the report and then it's an unnamed each report coming from the 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:41.480 each committee with a majority without far right so that's basically the political game what's 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:48.280 happening in this specific file we are addressing that also addresses pretty much many topics we 00:18:48.280 --> 00:18:54.360 are working on and that's why it's not a very normal procedure so to say so first of all it's 00:18:54.360 --> 00:19:01.560 this own initiative procedure certainly we have this new majorities so we had a far right member 00:19:01.560 --> 00:19:07.400 as a repertoire so in the from the procedure already a lot is different than to 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:15.400 normal finds files we worked on in the past and that's why next to content related questions like 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:19.480 that's an Open Source for example play a role in this sovereignty question or not 00:19:20.520 --> 00:19:27.080 is basically also in the middle of some other questions that are around for example 00:19:27.560 --> 00:19:32.280 who is a repertoire for this report and how do we find maturity so and that's something one needs 00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:37.320 to know when we talk about this report so it's not just about content here but it's also about 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:43.160 how do we find majorities and will there be on the topics we work on for example the topic of 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:48.680 sovereignty this is a topic where there will be a progressive majority or will there be a far 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:55.480 right majority so there are a couple of questions that are not content related but that are really 00:19:55.480 --> 00:20:01.720 important for the future of the questions of sovereignty but also on Europe in general I think 00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:09.640 yeah I can imagine like I now I have to question why was she handed this any why was it passed 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:16.200 on to her do you know that by any chance so I mean a set of these are elected members so they 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:22.840 have the same rights than any other group and this also means that workload is distributed 00:20:22.840 --> 00:20:28.680 between the members of the parliament so basically they are all equal and I think that's a good 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:35.160 thing for a parliament in general but this also means that they yeah if they want to work they 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:42.680 are allowed to work so and this also means it can't be that reports are only going always to the 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:48.680 big groups because that would mean the majority always get all the reports and that's a bit unfair 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:53.320 also if you look for example to the Greens or the Liberals or smaller groups that also want to have 00:20:53.320 --> 00:20:58.600 a saying the back in the days we remember the data protection reform was the repertoire was a 00:20:58.600 --> 00:21:06.440 green repertoire so it's definitely important and needed that also smaller groups get fired and 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:14.840 they do this by betting points so normally it is the case that yeah based on the strengths of a 00:21:14.840 --> 00:21:22.200 group you you get some points to bet on reports so and by thus you can basically say as a group 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:27.560 I'm particularly interested so for example take the Greens it's very obvious they want to work 00:21:27.560 --> 00:21:33.320 on topics of environmental questions so they will use a lot of their points to to get reports 00:21:33.320 --> 00:21:40.040 that are related to their topics they work on I understand topics that are important for the party 00:21:40.040 --> 00:21:47.240 like they use their points they have to get to get these kind of reports I'm not able to get 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:53.480 every report for themselves exactly so and it's so it's it's to bring some balance and to let 00:21:53.480 --> 00:22:00.280 others also the chance to work on topics they are interested in so and in this case the far right 00:22:00.280 --> 00:22:05.720 group here sent they want to bet some points and they want to get this report and work on this 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:10.840 topic of solidarity and I also think that something we have seen in other countries for example 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:18.280 in the in the hearing in the German Bundestag where there's also the AFD so a far right party that 00:22:18.280 --> 00:22:25.640 also showed their strong interest in the question of sovereignty, technical sovereignty and they 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:30.120 I mean have a completely different view than us on the topic but they see it as definitely as a 00:22:30.120 --> 00:22:34.840 topic they want to work on so and that's something we see in the far right in general they want to 00:22:34.840 --> 00:22:42.200 work on digital topics and they want to talk about sovereignty and so this makes it slightly 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:49.080 difficult for us so to say since they are an important actor since they can bring a majority at 00:22:49.080 --> 00:22:52.760 least in the European Parliament and that's something we fear and that's something we should have 00:22:52.760 --> 00:22:59.480 on the radar and I do believe we don't want to talk about sovereignty in a nationalism way but 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:05.080 more in a European and global way and this is yeah a fundamental question we are discussing at 00:23:05.080 --> 00:23:10.040 the moment and that's why it's so important where my priorities are going and one could also say 00:23:10.040 --> 00:23:15.560 this is basically a test one we see here since this is the very first file in the European Parliament 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:23.000 where we see a fashion stripper tour it's also happening in our space and there will be law-making 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:28.920 upcoming by the European Commission in this direction and so this file is basically a very 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:36.280 important test run in order to see where majorities goes and in these majorities how they value 00:23:36.280 --> 00:23:41.240 Open Source for example if we then talk about our topics so I mean worst case is that the 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:51.080 fascists come up with proposals for Open Source that are very national-centric while the so-called 00:23:51.080 --> 00:23:56.440 progressive majority don't come up with anything on Open Source but they talk about for example 00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:01.560 openness or something like this so and this is what I mean so it prints us often in situations 00:24:01.560 --> 00:24:06.440 where we have to be very fine tuned in our activities also in our lobby activities and where we have 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:14.200 to be very careful whom we support when and why and what this then ultimately means so it's 00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:20.680 definitely not a good idea to go for short wins in this term so to say but to have a long term 00:24:21.320 --> 00:24:26.200 vision on where to go with whom we want to go and why we want to go there and so this is 00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:34.200 so to say other than in other files where we could basically say we go with the majority we get 00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:39.320 I do believe that in this term it will be definitely different and we have to watch out 00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:46.920 for majorities very more than we did in the last term all right so thank you so much for the 00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:51.880 background and thank you so much for yeah giving us some introduction there how is 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:57.960 Open Source seen in this report because actually I could not find a term at all I mean that's a 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:06.360 thing so I mean the knuckle person so the repertoire did not propose anything on Open Source so she 00:25:06.360 --> 00:25:12.600 seems to not have this on the radar or she seems not to to see Open Source as a enabler for 00:25:12.600 --> 00:25:19.400 sovereignty however if you then check the amendments there you can see that there are people 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:26.040 having Open Source on the radar and that they also want to bring it in this report so but here 00:25:26.040 --> 00:25:33.080 again we see that there is so to say a slight shift so in the in the past we have already seen 00:25:33.080 --> 00:25:39.880 that in particular conservatives and liberals they have a hard time to use the word Open Source 00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:46.600 and promoted in a way that it's better than proprietary software for say in easy words 00:25:46.600 --> 00:25:52.360 so they want to go with terms that don't discriminate towards others one could say 00:25:53.080 --> 00:25:59.000 and with this they do believe that giving advantages to Open Source that this would be 00:25:59.560 --> 00:26:04.360 unnecessary interference with the market for to say and that's my day I hesitate to come up with 00:26:04.360 --> 00:26:09.640 these kinds of sayings so even if you have from the German conservatives for example a strong 00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:14.440 statement a party statement where this is going in the direction of public money public codes 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:22.360 we don't see this reflected European might so they value Open Source they do believe that Open Source 00:26:22.360 --> 00:26:29.080 is good however they won't go into the market and give somehow advantages to Open Source by 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:33.880 coming up with sayings like public money public code however they see the benefits so that's 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:38.920 that's something we also need to see so and for example you could also see in the cyber resilience 00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:44.360 act so they don't want to harm this market so they came up with exemptions for Open Source so 00:26:44.360 --> 00:26:49.960 this is what they do but they they are hesitant in order to they're over promoted so to say 00:26:50.760 --> 00:26:56.680 in from from their perspective from their view so and this also means we had also in the past 00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:04.040 other majorities social democrats decrees also the left ones that are very progressive when 00:27:04.040 --> 00:27:09.640 it comes to to our ideas and that mainly follow our ideas on public money public code for example 00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:15.480 right and that would they would be happy to to come up with such amendments and proposals 00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:21.560 and we have also already seen in the past that these votes goes in this direction but EPP is hesitant 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:28.760 together with them so they abstain or even vote against so but since there are these new 00:27:28.760 --> 00:27:34.600 majorities the EPP can decide with whom they go basically they can go with far right majority or 00:27:34.600 --> 00:27:40.440 they can go with the progressive majority but this also means that they can bring in a lot of pressure 00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:45.880 into this progressive group since they can always say if you don't want then we go to another 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:51.480 group where we already have a majority and the progressive part on the other hand don't have 00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:57.400 this option so they can't create pressure on the EPP for example and say look if you don't 00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:03.640 vote with us we find another majority since it is not there anymore so and this gives a very very 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:11.400 strong position to the EPP coming up with like a lot of texts that they want and they are the 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:17.080 progressive parts of the parliament have to eat it so to say since else they would go to a 00:28:17.080 --> 00:28:23.000 fascist majority so and that's the that's a piggy point what I what I meant in the beginning 00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:29.640 where I said we have to yeah watch out and see where majorities can go so and sometimes it might 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:37.240 be the case that we lose Open Source to not have Open Source in a fascist majority all the 00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:42.280 other way around right so and this is this is quite difficult and it's challenging however 00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:49.720 also from the amendments what we can see is and that's already also something where we can see 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:58.120 that the EPP is not only pressuring this progressive majority but also basically talking to them 00:28:58.120 --> 00:29:04.440 and and value this input so what the what the EPP does and this so they came up with with a group 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:10.440 of SMD and Liberals so the the Conservatives the Social Democrats and the Liberals together 00:29:11.080 --> 00:29:15.960 as a group amended to this report and by thus they also already show that they have a majority 00:29:16.760 --> 00:29:22.600 so and they amended in a way that they talk about openness and interoperability and common 00:29:22.600 --> 00:29:28.680 standards so what they don't compromise us basically it's about compromises also in words 00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:32.440 so it's pretty much compromising in words so I mean if you take openness in the 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:38.040 availability and common standards it's very unlikely that you will achieve this without Open Source 00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:44.280 or free software right or open standards it's it's it's it's it's it's nearly impossible I'd say 00:29:45.080 --> 00:29:51.720 however they are afraid of using the term Open Source the only ones bringing up 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:58.040 amendments with the term Open Source are the greens and the left ones so these those groups also 00:29:58.040 --> 00:30:05.160 precisely added amendments on the term Open Source and and want to be clear on this so to say 00:30:05.720 --> 00:30:12.200 and that's a situation where we are so on the one hand we could bend the the terms openness 00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:18.440 interoperability and common standards to a way that we say that this is basically Open Source 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:23.800 or we nudge them as long as possible that they say it and I do believe that's important that 00:30:23.800 --> 00:30:30.200 they say it and this is definitely something we do but it could be that the the the EPP 00:30:31.960 --> 00:30:37.640 won't take this and this is then also what I meant with the test one right so if this test 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:46.520 one we can see how far they go with the wording where the problems with the wording so what could 00:30:46.520 --> 00:30:53.000 be potential outcomes and majorities and where are so to say red lines for them and this will be 00:30:53.000 --> 00:31:00.600 particularly interesting in the in the next weeks to see if the term of Open Source 00:31:00.600 --> 00:31:06.840 can find its way in this report because I do believe if we talk about European technological 00:31:06.840 --> 00:31:13.000 sovereignty we have to talk about Open Source at the same time you see a debate at the moment 00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:20.200 it's just called by European and this is also something what we fear is that people do not 00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:25.640 understand that Open Source is global so and it's good that it's global and there is no European 00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:30.920 Open Source or US Open Source or Chinese Open Source but there's only global Open Source 00:31:31.560 --> 00:31:37.800 and this is also something I think for the next term what we need to explain is sovereignty is 00:31:37.800 --> 00:31:42.760 only possible with free software and free software is global and it's good that it's global 00:31:42.760 --> 00:31:48.440 so and I think these are the two main pain points so to say in the debate we need to discuss 00:31:48.520 --> 00:31:54.600 in the next five years and then we need to find majorities and for this precisely this report but 00:31:54.600 --> 00:32:00.360 we are discussing now is a very good test run where we can see a lot and then also adapt our 00:32:00.360 --> 00:32:06.840 strategies and ideas how we talk to the people how we convince them once we once we bring in some 00:32:06.840 --> 00:32:14.520 lighting this is a short break for our own cause thank you for listening to the software 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:22.120 podcast working for software freedom and producing podcasts costs money please consider supporting 00:32:22.120 --> 00:32:33.640 us with a donation on the fsfe.org/donate and then the show notes I see so this is very 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:39.800 interesting to watch over the next weeks will you care when I own this absolutely absolutely and 00:32:39.800 --> 00:32:46.520 we try to influence it yeah so that's that's also important and I mean I'm sure we will put the 00:32:46.520 --> 00:32:51.560 information to the file in the in the show notes so feel free to also reach out to the members 00:32:51.560 --> 00:32:56.600 of the parliament so you can see the repertoire and the shadow recorders the amendments are also 00:32:56.600 --> 00:33:02.200 linked so you can also see who tabled what and you are absolutely free to reach out to them 00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:09.320 email addresses are easy to find and ask them to add Open Source to the report and to connect the 00:33:09.320 --> 00:33:15.240 topic of serenity with the topic of Open Source and be more clearer on the terms of openness in 00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:22.280 the availability and standards so it needs to be Open Source in the availability and open standards 00:33:22.280 --> 00:33:28.280 that are compatible with Open Source so I think if we have this then we have a good report 00:33:28.840 --> 00:33:32.600 even if you see it's going in the right direction and they understood that inner 00:33:32.600 --> 00:33:36.120 availability is key in particular when we talk about European administrations 00:33:37.560 --> 00:33:42.360 but the only thing I'm asking myself why don't you then just clearly say in the availability 00:33:42.360 --> 00:33:47.880 is only possible with this Open Source because else I mean how should this happen I don't know 00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:52.280 that's what I'm asking myself as well I'm like why are they so afraid of the spread but the 00:33:52.280 --> 00:33:57.320 important thing is that we reach out to them and tell them that we as people think that this is 00:33:57.320 --> 00:34:04.360 very important absolutely and as if we will follow this file and also like continue 00:34:04.360 --> 00:34:09.160 than the work on this serenity terms so it's really just a starting point for the next five years 00:34:09.160 --> 00:34:16.040 so we this the topic will also be done about funding about how do we support movements 00:34:16.040 --> 00:34:20.680 and this is then also important where the money goes for example right so even if you have this 00:34:20.680 --> 00:34:26.040 report there will be a way more questions that need to be addressed in the next five years and 00:34:26.120 --> 00:34:32.120 we will be around and keep you updated in this podcast but also on fsfe.org and other channels 00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:36.760 thank you so much for your time thank you so much for walking us through this report 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:43.000 thanks for having me this was the software freedom podcast if you like this episode 00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:48.920 please recommend it to your friends and rate it stay tuned for more inspiring conversations 00:34:48.920 --> 00:34:53.640 that explore the importance of software freedom and its impact on our digital lives 00:34:54.520 --> 00:34:59.960 this podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe we are a charity 00:34:59.960 --> 00:35:05.800 that works on promoting software freedom if you like our work please consider supporting us 00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:12.840 for the nation you find more information under fsfe.org/donate thank you so much for listening 00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:29.640 thank you so much for your time