WEBVTT

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All right, then let's get started!

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Yay!

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Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.

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This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe.

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We are a charity that empowers users to control technology.

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And I'm here. I'm Bonnie Mehring.

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And I'm here today with my colleague, Alexander Sander.

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Alex, it's so nice that you made the time again for our monthly EU and policy episode.

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Thank you so much.

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Yeah, thanks for having me. Always a pleasure.

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So Alex, this time we will talk about the SFSCON,

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which has just happened this weekend.

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So you were there. I wasn't. I'm really sad that I missed it.

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But maybe next year, can you tell us a bit about what happened

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and what the conference is all about and why it's so important for the Free Software ecosystem?

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Absolutely. So the SFSCON is a very established conference.

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It was the 25th edition already this time.

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So it's, yeah, I said a very established conference.

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It happens in Italy, in Bolzano.

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So in South Tyrol and in the so-called NOI-Tech Park,

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which is also very lovely venue where people think around this technology

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and, yeah, in this regard also with Free Software.

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And the SFSCON is a Free Software conference,

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where around 1,000 people meet and discuss Free Software topics

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and present their projects.

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There's also attached to a data tone.

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And it's happening from Friday to Saturday.

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So it's a two-day conference.

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And it's very intense and very exciting talks.

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And normally it also comes with a dedicated topic.

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It's here, the main topic was ethics.

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So we talked a lot about Free Software and ethics.

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And that was super interesting to hear how other people look at this topic,

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how they work with this and what people are facing in this regard

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and from developers, maintainers, companies,

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but also the SFSFE and Geo's charities have been there.

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And it's a nice mix of Free Software and people coming together

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and discussing for two days, yeah, these exciting topics.

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And that's why we are going there since a couple of years

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and attending this conference with quite a lot of SFE people,

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volunteers, but also people from our office who work for the SFE.

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We also have a booth there where we can interact and chat with people

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who drop by.

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And it's not only interesting to hear and see the conference program

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and the exciting talks, but also to have chats at the booth afterwards

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where we can interact with our community, but also with people

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who never heard about the SFE, which are normally non,

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but yeah, so you have a lot of exchange,

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also others have booths there.

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And it's a very chaty conference where you can network a lot

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and where you can learn a lot about topics people work on these days

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when it comes to Free Software.

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And I said this year, many about ethics,

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but for us, super interesting, especially in the times

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that we are living in at the moment.

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Well, how was this displayed?

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That ethics was the main topic there,

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were there dedicated talks or, yeah, but...

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So there are also like several parallel tracks and sessions,

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so you have a couple of rooms, also like room for keynotes

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and you have virtual rooms.

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And if you take part in the call for papers,

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you normally also have to explain why this topic contributes

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to like the main topic of the conference of this year,

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which was ethics.

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So when you take part in the call for papers,

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you already have to think about why is this an important topic

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for the main issue that they want to discuss.

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However, there are also general talks about Free Software.

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So not everything is around ethics,

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but you see a lot of talks and workshops and conversations,

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panel discussions around those topics,

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in particular, in the main track.

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People share their views on this specific topic.

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And so you really feel that it's an important topic

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for the conference and that it's not just a theme

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or not just a saying,

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but that really people that then discuss these kinds of issues.

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All right.

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You already mentioned that there was a panel.

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So can you tell me a bit more about this panel?

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It is called ethics and software freedom.

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So what was it all about and who was part of this?

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Yeah, it was super interesting.

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Panel since it was Karen Sandler,

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it was Simon Phipps and our president Matthias Kirschner.

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And so we had very experienced people there on the panel,

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but also people who are in this field of resources

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and software since basically forever, if you like,

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since decades and who have really a lot of experience,

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who have seen a lot of debates already happening around Free Software

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and that are familiar not only with the recent debates

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and the general concept,

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but who really made up their mind about these topics.

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Yeah, so since since basically forever.

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And that was super interesting.

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There was not that much of a controversial debate.

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One can maybe also expect,

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however, there was a lot of like stories they told

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and it was super interesting to see how these debates

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on also already happened a couple of years

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or even decades ago and that it's just coming over and over again.

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Just this like different view.

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And one of these stories, for example,

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that Simon Phipps from the open source initiative shared there

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was that there is always this discussion

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about ethical licensing that you restrict the use case of Free Software

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and I think they all agree on that Free Software

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is coming without any restriction in particular

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when it comes about the use case.

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And however, we often see that people discuss,

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shouldn't we include some sort of like ethical use cases

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or like use cases that you,

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and for big people to use your Free Software,

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for example, when it comes to war or criminal activities,

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we also see there's a lot in AI up now

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that they say only for research or something like this.

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And normally there are morally good reasons

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to have this idea and people don't want something bad, right?

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And that's normally something good, right?

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So they make up their mind and they think,

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right, so I don't want that my software is then later

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be integrated in a tank or something like this.

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But however, the story that Simon, for example, shared

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was that back in the days, people, for example,

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when there was the apartheid system in South Africa,

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they said, look, every governmental organization in South Africa

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can't use our Free Software.

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And after the system changed, the license stayed.

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So this means that even maybe good people couldn't use the Free Software

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since it was in the license and it was kind of like

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if you like hard coded there and it couldn't be changed.

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And that makes it complicated in the long one.

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So what might be a good idea today might not be a good idea tomorrow

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since system change, idea change, discussion change.

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And that was I think a nice story to showcase

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why it is so important to not restrict the use case.

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And even if you might have a good reasoning or like a good idea

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or like, yeah, you want to do something good for the world, right?

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And you only want that software you created is only used

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for good purposes.

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This might backfire also one day later.

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So and therefore, yeah, it was an interesting story

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that I think had a lot of people to understand

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why it is so important to not restrict the use case.

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And also why it is then not Free Software anymore

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and we restrict the use case.

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And this panel wasn't this regard very interesting.

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So even if it was not controversial, I think it had a lot

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to understand why it is so important to think about ethics,

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to discuss ethics, to also have like a moral compass

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and I mean also we in FSFE having moral ideas right.

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So and we follow, so we are charity rights

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or we want to empower users to control technology

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which is our mission statement, for example,

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but still we also fight that the use case is not restricted

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and the Free Software remains Free Software.

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And I think for people who are not that much familiar with the

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debate or the backgrounds on all of the debates,

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it was very helpful to understand why this is not a good idea

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to restrict the use case.

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So and ultimately also to believe when we discuss these kinds

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of restrictions, one should also always know

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that we ultimately talk about the license right.

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So and if you as you just mentioned talk about criminal activities

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then these people already do not follow the law

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since they are criminals right.

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Very unlikely that they will be then stopped by a license

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with their activities right.

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So and this is also someone should consider

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and you then might also be understand why there might be

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more downsides if you restrict the use case

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that might backfire one day.

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And that's why it's not a good idea.

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And also you might not stop the people you want to stop.

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Was there also, I find this very interesting.

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I'm just wondering now because one I have always here

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in this context is that it's very much a social problem

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or a problem of our society and it needs to be solved

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within the society.

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It can't be solved by putting a license to something

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or by putting a restricting software use cases

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but it needs to be tackled as a society.

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And there is always this belief or this thought

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that if we put technology there then we will solve the problems.

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So like if we have robots cleaning everything

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then we won't have any debates anymore

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about who is doing the household for example

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because then the robot are doing it.

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But this isn't true.

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It will still be a debate and it will still shift.

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And you still need to think about this.

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It's now a very minor focus.

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But you still need to think about this as a society

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or a social problem.

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Was this argument discussed there at all?

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Absolutely.

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Also the classical debate which you have around tools.

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So you have a hammer and you can use it to have a tool

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which helps you, I don't know, build a house.

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But also you can use the hammer to kill someone.

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And to put a license restriction on the hammer

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to not use it for killing might be a bit useless

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if you then end up in prison anyhow.

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And it won't stop people from killing

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if you just put it in a license.

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So and it's more of a social problem.

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However, I would then also argue that

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this argument has a limit when we talk about weapons rights

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or if you might have weapons for hunters.

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But if you look at U.S. rights

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where people can buy crazy guns and just through the round

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then this also has to some extent some limits there.

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And you also should think about there

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to which extent we want to allow freedom

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when it comes to those kinds of,

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yeah, I wouldn't even consider this then as a tool anymore.

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But you're absolutely right.

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So we have in general social problems

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and we have to face them as a society

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and we can't stop the society

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or we can't change the society

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just as a license change.

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So there's absolutely way more.

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And I think this is also what we do in the FSI with our work.

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So we do not only promote a license

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and we do not only talk about different social license

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but we also talk about values.

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We talk about ideas.

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We talk about concepts.

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We talk about consumer protection, for example.

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And these are completely other debates

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than just talking about a license.

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And I think this is then also what we figured out

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during that conference.

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So that it's not only or that we,

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that we ultimately not only talk about

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a Free Software license

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or the restriction of use case,

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but that there is way more on

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how we need to think about this.

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So and many, many,

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like not only also independent,

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but also many talks then

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adjust the topic of AI

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where we more and more see these questions arising.

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So do we, how do we,

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how do we want to live with AI?

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That's not a license question, right?

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So that's where a social question

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that's a question for our society,

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that's a question for our,

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it's a global question,

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how we, how we want to address this.

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So and the opinion and just started

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with the AI act to regulate it.

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And we also have there,

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and we just recently had a podcast on this one.

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So on the, on the exemptions on Free Software in AI.

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But however, with this,

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we are, we are,

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we not reach the final point of regulating AI

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or we didn't like end the debate on how we look at AI.

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It, I would rather say,

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this is, this is the starting point for the debate around AI

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and how we want to live with this.

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And it's, it's not just a license question.

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So it, this is way, way more.

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And, and also Essex are,

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it's, it's also a term,

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like what means Essex to you,

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to me, to someone from the US,

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from China,

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from Latin America,

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why so different cultures look differently

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at some questions in the world.

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And Essex is also not really a,

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a term which is clearly defined, right?

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So where we all agree or not,

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where we all can say,

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yeah, this is the true,

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the true way here,

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or this is, this is the path we need to go.

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No, it's, it's about discussions.

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It's, it's about finding our ways

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to, to handling global social and societal questions,

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which, which can't be addressed just as a,

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as a license.

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However,

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and I,

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I also do believe that ultimately we should have,

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in particular,

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when we talk about AI Free Software,

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since this helps us to better understand what's happening there,

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to, to better understand where we could go with this.

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And this helps us to debate around this,

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since we have way more,

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for example, transparency,

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and, and by thus,

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we can,

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they better understand how to live and handle this.

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And, and that's why the,

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the Free Software license in this regard is important.

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And we should value it.

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However,

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it won't help us to fix

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all the evil in the world.

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That's a nice sentence.

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All right.

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I hear that there was more happening, actually,

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than this panel.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Which I'm quite sure there will be a recording

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and the recording hopefully will be released soon

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and we will link to it in the show notes.

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Absolutely.

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And also,

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but the super interesting is that already decides

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are already there from all the talks

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on the panel discussion, obviously not.

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But also from the talks,

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the slides are already available.

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So you can click through them.

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Normally they are also quite quick in releasing the videos.

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And you will find them.

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The talks we,

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where we have been around,

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you will also find them on https://media.fsfe.org.

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But also we will find them on the social media channels

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of the SFS,

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S, Scon itself.

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And there have been way more interesting debates.

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We had,

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for example,

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debates about the feedback.

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There have been,

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I myself gave a talk about the funding topic,

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which you also addressed here in the podcast.

16:46.000 --> 16:49.000
My colleague Johannes talked about the procurement,

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reform, public money, public code,

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what to expect there.

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My colleague Darryl talked about route of freedom in Italy.

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Lucas,

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we all know him,

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the fighter for the M.A.

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And the apple case,

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where he fights about software freedom in front of the ECJ.

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So there have been also,

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and other super interesting talks,

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I said it's a two day conference with many talks,

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many stages,

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and many,

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many parallel tracks.

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So there's really a lot to see.

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And even I was not able to,

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to see all the talks that I wanted to see,

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since I said something happened parallel,

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or you have been in a meeting or in a chat with someone.

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It was so interesting that you,

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that you missed a talk.

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So,

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and yeah,

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the recordings definitely help to catch up with all the interesting debates there.

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Also some practical questions,

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so a talk,

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which I really liked a lot was one by Alexios,

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who is also part of our Youth Hacking 4 Freedom competition.

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He's working for Intel,

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and he talked, for example,

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about how to handle AI in the OSPOL in the company.

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So,

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so in the open source program office.

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So what do you need to do?

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And what does it mean,

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basically in reality,

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and how do people who work there?

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Then handle these problems.

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If they are,

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ending up at their desk,

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right,

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so often we discuss AI.

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I would say from a,

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from a bit far away,

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so we have vague ideas.

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And so,

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and so,

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and so,

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and so,

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and so,

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and so,

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and so,

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and so,

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and so,

18:26.000 --> 18:27.000
and so,

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and so,

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and so,

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and so,

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and so,

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and so,

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that differently.

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So we have vague ideas,

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and so we have vague ideas.

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And there

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and this told me I have seen someone who's not necessarily coming

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with AI but it's being confronted with the AI that he needs

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to handle in his OSPOL,

18:49.000 --> 18:50.000
and there was also super interesting talk.

18:50.000 --> 18:51.000
So there are many,

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many different talks that,

18:53.000 --> 18:55.000
that were super interesting.

18:55.000 --> 18:56.000
And not only covering ethics,

18:56.000 --> 18:58.000
but also practical issues.

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many children showed up where there was the other readings, why so much here for this

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children book, this other, so where these children were running around and reading the book

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and then they had a programming session where they learned programming and then they had ice

19:16.480 --> 19:22.640
creams and they had popcorn. So it was also that there were some really nice moments at this conference

19:22.640 --> 19:29.760
which was really nice which you maybe won't find at the recordings. Yeah it's children's

19:30.240 --> 19:33.520
but anyhow so also this happened at this conference or it was not just like

19:34.240 --> 19:40.240
professionals talking about their business but also yeah many emotional moments that happened

19:40.240 --> 19:46.240
at this conference that made it very nice to be there so if you haven't been to this conference

19:47.040 --> 19:51.520
then I can just highly recommend to go there next year it's also always happening

19:51.600 --> 19:55.600
in the beginning of November I'm not really sure about the next date but if you go to the

19:55.600 --> 20:01.280
website of the SFSCON they might release the date or already have released the date for the next

20:01.280 --> 20:08.160
year and it's definitely happening in the beginning of November. It's the 13th and 14th of November

20:08.160 --> 20:15.520
2026. This is the date. Mark this take part in the call for papers and even if you are not around

20:15.520 --> 20:20.560
there as a speaker I'll go there as a participant it's a really nice conference and also

20:20.560 --> 20:27.040
personally I have to say I like the area a lot there are many mountains so if you if you have

20:27.040 --> 20:33.120
the chance to stay one day longer I can highly recommend to visit the area there I go for a hike

20:33.120 --> 20:37.840
go in the mountains it's just so lovely there and yeah that makes it a really nice conference

20:37.840 --> 20:44.000
with a nice experience not only at the conference but where you can also spend some free time

20:44.000 --> 20:48.160
in the mountains which makes it at least for me very very nice conference. It sounds a bit like

20:48.240 --> 20:53.600
there's a lot of community that you experience there and that comes together and yeah

20:54.880 --> 21:00.160
exchanges ideas about Free Software about current debates and just

21:02.080 --> 21:09.040
enjoys to network or to talk with each other. Absolutely and normally always for auto run into

21:09.040 --> 21:14.720
new people and and hear about new ideas so and this is like auto in the evenings in the bars

21:15.360 --> 21:21.920
it's it's it's just nice to yeah meet people exchange and have a have a really nice time there

21:22.480 --> 21:30.160
and normally you also learn a bit or even a bit more and that makes it yeah very nice experience

21:30.160 --> 21:37.040
to go there. Was there something that stood out to you a lot? Timers running fast I know you

21:37.040 --> 21:42.640
already mentioned the best talk you attended or one of the best that you attended as you

21:43.520 --> 21:48.880
as you also sounded it was like a very busy conference there but was there something that stood

21:48.880 --> 21:56.480
out to you and that you wanted to share with our listeners? I do believe it it was also the

21:56.480 --> 22:03.360
conversations I had after my talk on funding but also Jordan from from the also the

22:03.360 --> 22:08.560
negative impact on the cyber resilience act and this is still something which you which you

22:08.560 --> 22:14.960
see a lot being discussed there on these kind of conferences too where people discuss the topic

22:14.960 --> 22:20.800
of funding so and this is something which is it's a lot around the discussion so cyber resilience

22:20.800 --> 22:29.200
act new regulations but also we see that we have issues with core infrastructure but also on the

22:29.280 --> 22:36.400
other hand innovation procurement so whenever we talk about these kind of topics ultimately you see

22:36.400 --> 22:43.680
people in the end talking about funding and money and this is something where I really do believe

22:43.680 --> 22:49.840
that yeah this is our this is our call for a secured long term funding for the software which is

22:50.960 --> 22:56.400
pulled by private and public money is something which we really need to follow up and where we

22:57.120 --> 23:03.360
was good that we started this initiative some yeah I'd say now years ago to think about

23:03.360 --> 23:08.960
these important questions because it's more and more arising and becoming more and more clear

23:08.960 --> 23:15.920
that we need to address these issues and also what I really liked added to this is that I had

23:15.920 --> 23:22.080
a conversation with Sebastian from Appel that he not only have to think about funding but also

23:22.720 --> 23:30.160
mental health maybe of the people in our community so often we see people that maybe run into burnouts

23:30.160 --> 23:38.000
or that are facing so many problems with their projects that they might be overwhelmed with

23:38.000 --> 23:42.400
whatever they do and I also do believe that this is something where we where we need to have an

23:42.400 --> 23:50.400
eye on that we that we make sure that our community yeah it's not burning out at one point but that

23:50.400 --> 23:56.080
we also not only value their work and in this regard I think it was also super nice that we had

23:56.080 --> 24:02.320
the software freedom awards which this year also came when to to real see a very nice community

24:02.320 --> 24:06.880
project but ultimately it's not only about value in the world but that we also think about more of

24:06.880 --> 24:13.520
like in a way of like sustaining project or to have sustainable project that we that we look

24:13.520 --> 24:17.920
not only at the project but at the people behind and I also do believe that this is something

24:18.000 --> 24:23.120
what you're doing we see we see a lot for software day and in particular like for the next

24:23.120 --> 24:28.240
edition it's very very want to thank maintainers that this is something which is absolutely going

24:28.240 --> 24:33.040
in the right direction and which is addressing also some of these issues which we which we sometimes

24:33.040 --> 24:39.280
do not see or which we do not value that much that there are people behind this and that these people

24:39.280 --> 24:44.960
sometimes really struggle and that we the bare minimum is that we thank them but that we also

24:44.960 --> 24:50.720
think about like how can we make this all a more cozy environment so to say how can we secure

24:50.720 --> 24:55.520
the future of Free Software yeah absolutely I like that and I will take that as a closing word

24:55.520 --> 25:02.560
because time is running so fast again Alex yes thank you so much thank you thank you for having

25:02.560 --> 25:08.320
me it was as always as well as a real pleasure and I'm so happy that you took the time that you

25:09.120 --> 25:15.920
shared your experience from the software SFSCON from the software freedom conference in

25:15.920 --> 25:25.520
Bolzano yeah thanks so much thank you bunny this was the software freedom podcast if you liked

25:25.520 --> 25:31.520
this episode please recommend it to your friends and rate it stay tuned for more inspiring

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conversations that explore the importance of software freedom and its impact on our digital lives

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this podcast is presented to you by the Free Software foundation Europe and BR charity that

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works on promoting software freedom if you like our work please consider supporting us

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with our donation you find more information under fsfe.org slash donate thank you so much for

25:58.640 --> 26:02.480
listening and see you next month thank you so much

26:09.280 --> 26:24.240
hey I'm Alex senior policy consultant from the Free Software Foundation Europe one of my favorite

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podcasts is Linux in laws i very much enjoyed their insightful discussions about Free Software

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and in the end i always have to love about their funny discussions so give them a try under

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