All right, then let's get started!
Yay!
Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.
This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe.
We are a charity that empowers users to control technology.
And I'm here. I'm Bonnie Mehring.
And I'm here today with my colleague, Alexander Sander.
Alex, it's so nice that you made the time again for our monthly EU and policy episode.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, thanks for having me. Always a pleasure.
So Alex, this time we will talk about the SFSCON,
which has just happened this weekend.
So you were there. I wasn't. I'm really sad that I missed it.
But maybe next year, can you tell us a bit about what happened
and what the conference is all about and why it's so important for the Free Software ecosystem?
Absolutely. So the SFSCON is a very established conference.
It was the 25th edition already this time.
So it's, yeah, I said a very established conference.
It happens in Italy, in Bolzano.
So in South Tyrol and in the so-called NOI-Tech Park,
which is also very lovely venue where people think around this technology
and, yeah, in this regard also with Free Software.
And the SFSCON is a Free Software conference,
where around 1,000 people meet and discuss Free Software topics
and present their projects.
There's also attached to a data tone.
And it's happening from Friday to Saturday.
So it's a two-day conference.
And it's very intense and very exciting talks.
And normally it also comes with a dedicated topic.
It's here, the main topic was ethics.
So we talked a lot about Free Software and ethics.
And that was super interesting to hear how other people look at this topic,
how they work with this and what people are facing in this regard
and from developers, maintainers, companies,
but also the SFSFE and Geo's charities have been there.
And it's a nice mix of Free Software and people coming together
and discussing for two days, yeah, these exciting topics.
And that's why we are going there since a couple of years
and attending this conference with quite a lot of SFE people,
volunteers, but also people from our office who work for the SFE.
We also have a booth there where we can interact and chat with people
who drop by.
And it's not only interesting to hear and see the conference program
and the exciting talks, but also to have chats at the booth afterwards
where we can interact with our community, but also with people
who never heard about the SFE, which are normally non,
but yeah, so you have a lot of exchange,
also others have booths there.
And it's a very chaty conference where you can network a lot
and where you can learn a lot about topics people work on these days
when it comes to Free Software.
And I said this year, many about ethics,
but for us, super interesting, especially in the times
that we are living in at the moment.
Well, how was this displayed?
That ethics was the main topic there,
were there dedicated talks or, yeah, but...
Yeah, absolutely.
So there are also like several parallel tracks and sessions,
so you have a couple of rooms, also like room for keynotes
and you have virtual rooms.
And if you take part in the call for papers,
you normally also have to explain why this topic contributes
to like the main topic of the conference of this year,
which was ethics.
So when you take part in the call for papers,
you already have to think about why is this an important topic
for the main issue that they want to discuss.
However, there are also general talks about Free Software.
So not everything is around ethics,
but you see a lot of talks and workshops and conversations,
panel discussions around those topics,
in particular, in the main track.
People share their views on this specific topic.
And so you really feel that it's an important topic
for the conference and that it's not just a theme
or not just a saying,
but that really people that then discuss these kinds of issues.
All right.
You already mentioned that there was a panel.
So can you tell me a bit more about this panel?
It is called ethics and software freedom.
So what was it all about and who was part of this?
Yeah, it was super interesting.
Panel since it was Karen Sandler,
it was Simon Phipps and our president Matthias Kirschner.
And so we had very experienced people there on the panel,
but also people who are in this field of resources
and software since basically forever, if you like,
since decades and who have really a lot of experience,
who have seen a lot of debates already happening around Free Software
and that are familiar not only with the recent debates
and the general concept,
but who really made up their mind about these topics.
Yeah, so since since basically forever.
And that was super interesting.
There was not that much of a controversial debate.
One can maybe also expect,
however, there was a lot of like stories they told
and it was super interesting to see how these debates
on also already happened a couple of years
or even decades ago and that it's just coming over and over again.
Just this like different view.
And one of these stories, for example,
that Simon Phipps from the open source initiative shared there
was that there is always this discussion
about ethical licensing that you restrict the use case of Free Software
and I think they all agree on that Free Software
is coming without any restriction in particular
when it comes about the use case.
And however, we often see that people discuss,
shouldn't we include some sort of like ethical use cases
or like use cases that you,
and for big people to use your Free Software,
for example, when it comes to war or criminal activities,
we also see there's a lot in AI up now
that they say only for research or something like this.
And normally there are morally good reasons
to have this idea and people don't want something bad, right?
And that's normally something good, right?
So they make up their mind and they think,
right, so I don't want that my software is then later
be integrated in a tank or something like this.
But however, the story that Simon, for example, shared
was that back in the days, people, for example,
when there was the apartheid system in South Africa,
they said, look, every governmental organization in South Africa
can't use our Free Software.
And after the system changed, the license stayed.
So this means that even maybe good people couldn't use the Free Software
since it was in the license and it was kind of like
if you like hard coded there and it couldn't be changed.
And that makes it complicated in the long one.
So what might be a good idea today might not be a good idea tomorrow
since system change, idea change, discussion change.
And that was I think a nice story to showcase
why it is so important to not restrict the use case.
And even if you might have a good reasoning or like a good idea
or like, yeah, you want to do something good for the world, right?
And you only want that software you created is only used
for good purposes.
This might backfire also one day later.
So and therefore, yeah, it was an interesting story
that I think had a lot of people to understand
why it is so important to not restrict the use case.
And also why it is then not Free Software anymore
and we restrict the use case.
And this panel wasn't this regard very interesting.
So even if it was not controversial, I think it had a lot
to understand why it is so important to think about ethics,
to discuss ethics, to also have like a moral compass
and I mean also we in FSFE having moral ideas right.
So and we follow, so we are charity rights
or we want to empower users to control technology
which is our mission statement, for example,
but still we also fight that the use case is not restricted
and the Free Software remains Free Software.
And I think for people who are not that much familiar with the
debate or the backgrounds on all of the debates,
it was very helpful to understand why this is not a good idea
to restrict the use case.
So and ultimately also to believe when we discuss these kinds
of restrictions, one should also always know
that we ultimately talk about the license right.
So and if you as you just mentioned talk about criminal activities
then these people already do not follow the law
since they are criminals right.
Very unlikely that they will be then stopped by a license
with their activities right.
So and this is also someone should consider
and you then might also be understand why there might be
more downsides if you restrict the use case
that might backfire one day.
And that's why it's not a good idea.
And also you might not stop the people you want to stop.
Was there also, I find this very interesting.
I'm just wondering now because one I have always here
in this context is that it's very much a social problem
or a problem of our society and it needs to be solved
within the society.
It can't be solved by putting a license to something
or by putting a restricting software use cases
but it needs to be tackled as a society.
And there is always this belief or this thought
that if we put technology there then we will solve the problems.
So like if we have robots cleaning everything
then we won't have any debates anymore
about who is doing the household for example
because then the robot are doing it.
But this isn't true.
It will still be a debate and it will still shift.
And you still need to think about this.
It's now a very minor focus.
But you still need to think about this as a society
or a social problem.
Was this argument discussed there at all?
Absolutely.
Also the classical debate which you have around tools.
So you have a hammer and you can use it to have a tool
which helps you, I don't know, build a house.
But also you can use the hammer to kill someone.
And to put a license restriction on the hammer
to not use it for killing might be a bit useless
if you then end up in prison anyhow.
And it won't stop people from killing
if you just put it in a license.
So and it's more of a social problem.
However, I would then also argue that
this argument has a limit when we talk about weapons rights
or if you might have weapons for hunters.
But if you look at U.S. rights
where people can buy crazy guns and just through the round
then this also has to some extent some limits there.
And you also should think about there
to which extent we want to allow freedom
when it comes to those kinds of,
yeah, I wouldn't even consider this then as a tool anymore.
But you're absolutely right.
So we have in general social problems
and we have to face them as a society
and we can't stop the society
or we can't change the society
just as a license change.
So there's absolutely way more.
And I think this is also what we do in the FSI with our work.
So we do not only promote a license
and we do not only talk about different social license
but we also talk about values.
We talk about ideas.
We talk about concepts.
We talk about consumer protection, for example.
And these are completely other debates
than just talking about a license.
And I think this is then also what we figured out
during that conference.
So that it's not only or that we,
that we ultimately not only talk about
a Free Software license
or the restriction of use case,
but that there is way more on
how we need to think about this.
So and many, many,
like not only also independent,
but also many talks then
adjust the topic of AI
where we more and more see these questions arising.
So do we, how do we,
how do we want to live with AI?
That's not a license question, right?
So that's where a social question
that's a question for our society,
that's a question for our,
it's a global question,
how we, how we want to address this.
So and the opinion and just started
with the AI act to regulate it.
And we also have there,
and we just recently had a podcast on this one.
So on the, on the exemptions on Free Software in AI.
But however, with this,
we are, we are,
we not reach the final point of regulating AI
or we didn't like end the debate on how we look at AI.
It, I would rather say,
this is, this is the starting point for the debate around AI
and how we want to live with this.
And it's, it's not just a license question.
So it, this is way, way more.
And, and also Essex are,
it's, it's also a term,
like what means Essex to you,
to me, to someone from the US,
from China,
from Latin America,
why so different cultures look differently
at some questions in the world.
And Essex is also not really a,
a term which is clearly defined, right?
So where we all agree or not,
where we all can say,
yeah, this is the true,
the true way here,
or this is, this is the path we need to go.
No, it's, it's about discussions.
It's, it's about finding our ways
to, to handling global social and societal questions,
which, which can't be addressed just as a,
as a license.
However,
and I,
I also do believe that ultimately we should have,
in particular,
when we talk about AI Free Software,
since this helps us to better understand what's happening there,
to, to better understand where we could go with this.
And this helps us to debate around this,
since we have way more,
for example, transparency,
and, and by thus,
we can,
they better understand how to live and handle this.
And, and that's why the,
the Free Software license in this regard is important.
And we should value it.
However,
it won't help us to fix
all the evil in the world.
That's a nice sentence.
All right.
I hear that there was more happening, actually,
than this panel.
Yeah, absolutely.
Which I'm quite sure there will be a recording
and the recording hopefully will be released soon
and we will link to it in the show notes.
Absolutely.
And also,
but the super interesting is that already decides
are already there from all the talks
on the panel discussion, obviously not.
But also from the talks,
the slides are already available.
So you can click through them.
Normally they are also quite quick in releasing the videos.
And you will find them.
The talks we,
where we have been around,
you will also find them on https://media.fsfe.org.
But also we will find them on the social media channels
of the SFS,
S, Scon itself.
And there have been way more interesting debates.
We had,
for example,
debates about the feedback.
There have been,
I myself gave a talk about the funding topic,
which you also addressed here in the podcast.
My colleague Johannes talked about the procurement,
reform, public money, public code,
what to expect there.
My colleague Darryl talked about route of freedom in Italy.
Lucas,
we all know him,
the fighter for the M.A.
And the apple case,
where he fights about software freedom in front of the ECJ.
So there have been also,
and other super interesting talks,
I said it's a two day conference with many talks,
many stages,
and many,
many parallel tracks.
So there's really a lot to see.
And even I was not able to,
to see all the talks that I wanted to see,
since I said something happened parallel,
or you have been in a meeting or in a chat with someone.
It was so interesting that you,
that you missed a talk.
So,
and yeah,
the recordings definitely help to catch up with all the interesting debates there.
Also some practical questions,
so a talk,
which I really liked a lot was one by Alexios,
who is also part of our Youth Hacking 4 Freedom competition.
He's working for Intel,
and he talked, for example,
about how to handle AI in the OSPOL in the company.
So,
so in the open source program office.
So what do you need to do?
And what does it mean,
basically in reality,
and how do people who work there?
Then handle these problems.
If they are,
ending up at their desk,
right,
so often we discuss AI.
I would say from a,
from a bit far away,
so we have vague ideas.
And so,
and so,
that differently.
So we have vague ideas,
and so we have vague ideas.
And there
and this told me I have seen someone who's not necessarily coming
with AI but it's being confronted with the AI that he needs
to handle in his OSPOL,
and there was also super interesting talk.
So there are many,
many different talks that,
that were super interesting.
And not only covering ethics,
but also practical issues.
many children showed up where there was the other readings, why so much here for this
children book, this other, so where these children were running around and reading the book
and then they had a programming session where they learned programming and then they had ice
creams and they had popcorn. So it was also that there were some really nice moments at this conference
which was really nice which you maybe won't find at the recordings. Yeah it's children's
but anyhow so also this happened at this conference or it was not just like
professionals talking about their business but also yeah many emotional moments that happened
at this conference that made it very nice to be there so if you haven't been to this conference
then I can just highly recommend to go there next year it's also always happening
in the beginning of November I'm not really sure about the next date but if you go to the
website of the SFSCON they might release the date or already have released the date for the next
year and it's definitely happening in the beginning of November. It's the 13th and 14th of November
2026. This is the date. Mark this take part in the call for papers and even if you are not around
there as a speaker I'll go there as a participant it's a really nice conference and also
personally I have to say I like the area a lot there are many mountains so if you if you have
the chance to stay one day longer I can highly recommend to visit the area there I go for a hike
go in the mountains it's just so lovely there and yeah that makes it a really nice conference
with a nice experience not only at the conference but where you can also spend some free time
in the mountains which makes it at least for me very very nice conference. It sounds a bit like
there's a lot of community that you experience there and that comes together and yeah
exchanges ideas about Free Software about current debates and just
enjoys to network or to talk with each other. Absolutely and normally always for auto run into
new people and and hear about new ideas so and this is like auto in the evenings in the bars
it's it's it's just nice to yeah meet people exchange and have a have a really nice time there
and normally you also learn a bit or even a bit more and that makes it yeah very nice experience
to go there. Was there something that stood out to you a lot? Timers running fast I know you
already mentioned the best talk you attended or one of the best that you attended as you
as you also sounded it was like a very busy conference there but was there something that stood
out to you and that you wanted to share with our listeners? I do believe it it was also the
conversations I had after my talk on funding but also Jordan from from the also the
negative impact on the cyber resilience act and this is still something which you which you
see a lot being discussed there on these kind of conferences too where people discuss the topic
of funding so and this is something which is it's a lot around the discussion so cyber resilience
act new regulations but also we see that we have issues with core infrastructure but also on the
other hand innovation procurement so whenever we talk about these kind of topics ultimately you see
people in the end talking about funding and money and this is something where I really do believe
that yeah this is our this is our call for a secured long term funding for the software which is
pulled by private and public money is something which we really need to follow up and where we
was good that we started this initiative some yeah I'd say now years ago to think about
these important questions because it's more and more arising and becoming more and more clear
that we need to address these issues and also what I really liked added to this is that I had
a conversation with Sebastian from Appel that he not only have to think about funding but also
mental health maybe of the people in our community so often we see people that maybe run into burnouts
or that are facing so many problems with their projects that they might be overwhelmed with
whatever they do and I also do believe that this is something where we where we need to have an
eye on that we that we make sure that our community yeah it's not burning out at one point but that
we also not only value their work and in this regard I think it was also super nice that we had
the software freedom awards which this year also came when to to real see a very nice community
project but ultimately it's not only about value in the world but that we also think about more of
like in a way of like sustaining project or to have sustainable project that we that we look
not only at the project but at the people behind and I also do believe that this is something
what you're doing we see we see a lot for software day and in particular like for the next
edition it's very very want to thank maintainers that this is something which is absolutely going
in the right direction and which is addressing also some of these issues which we which we sometimes
do not see or which we do not value that much that there are people behind this and that these people
sometimes really struggle and that we the bare minimum is that we thank them but that we also
think about like how can we make this all a more cozy environment so to say how can we secure
the future of Free Software yeah absolutely I like that and I will take that as a closing word
because time is running so fast again Alex yes thank you so much thank you thank you for having
me it was as always as well as a real pleasure and I'm so happy that you took the time that you
shared your experience from the software SFSCON from the software freedom conference in
Bolzano yeah thanks so much thank you bunny this was the software freedom podcast if you liked
this episode please recommend it to your friends and rate it stay tuned for more inspiring
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hey I'm Alex senior policy consultant from the Free Software Foundation Europe one of my favorite
podcasts is Linux in laws i very much enjoyed their insightful discussions about Free Software
and in the end i always have to love about their funny discussions so give them a try under
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