Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the
Free Software Foundation Europe. We are a charity that empowers users to control technology.
And I'm Bonnie Mehring and today I'm here with my colleague, Alexander Sander. Hi, Alex. Thank you so much for making the time.
Hello, Bonnie. How are you today?
Yeah, I'm pretty good. Currently as you might know, I'm working on your second for Freedom together with you.
So since we are about to start the next edition and registrations are open, we are looking for new participants promoting the contest.
And yeah, this keeps me and obviously you as well.
Maybe we can also use the moment to let our listeners know that registration is open.
And so if you should know anyone around you who is between 14 and 18 living in Europe, please register for your second for Freedom.
It's great programming competition and you will learn everything you need to know on our website on this.
And you can share the registration so that we get cool participants who come up with cool projects in the next six months.
Right. I think I can also link that in the show notes. That's a good idea.
And yes, we are currently very busy with it. That's absolutely true.
Okay. But today we won't talk about you if I can give you freedom. But we will be talking about a consultation that is run by the European Commission. Right?
Exactly. So that's the other thing I'm working on.
There's a revision of the public procurement rules in the European Union.
We already talked about this just recently and this will also keep us busy for the next, I guess, two or three years, at least for this whole term of the European Parliament.
Yes. So as you just said, the European Commission started to do a consultation on the impact assessment.
And this is what we are going to talk about today, a bit of process and a bit of content.
I like that. All right. So in this consultation, the EU is asking for feedback on the current public procurement guidelines.
Alex, can you walk us through this? What are they? What is the commission asking for? And yeah, what's happening there?
Yeah. So this will be the process part mostly. So basically whenever the European Commission comes up with a new law, they normally run consultation.
This already happened. We already gave feedback on this.
We already came up with our public money, public court demand and how to get to a free software first approach in procurement.
Since we do believe that this is important to achieve digital sovereignty.
We addressed this. We claimed that we should have something like strategic procurement in the European Union in order to have and achieve this digital sovereignty through the procurement.
Of free software, since it's for freedoms to use that the share and proof, you can basically reach this digital sovereignty, at least in the software part.
And after this consultation to place the European Commission sat down and said before we come up with the proposal for this version of the public procurement before we want to come up with a so called impact assessment.
So this normally happens when the European Commission has a couple of options and if it's a bit of like a large reform package day, they come up with.
So then they normally also write such an impact assessment and these impact assessments are sort of studies or papers where the European Commission discusses several options.
For example, if it should be a regulation or if it should be like just software or if there's not a need at all to come up as a reform.
If there should be guidance, if there should be legislative options or best practices or like in general how to approach the reform package in total.
So this is what the impact assessment normally does. So it comes with a couple of options they discuss and then also the European Commission favors one of these options.
Do they do that on their own or do they also take the feedback into account that is provided by public people exactly.
And this is where the content partner starts they run also a consultation on this impact assessment and this is what is happening now.
So they just recently opened such a consultation on the impact assessment. So what they should come up with in the impact assessment.
This consultation is open until end of January at 26th of January and this is where they already came up with some like a general ideas on what should be in or what should be discussed in this impact assessment.
And now we have the chance or like everyone has the chance to take part in this consultation and give them feedback on what should be in the impact assessment and what should be the favored idea on how to achieve these ideas.
And we talk for example about strategic procurement and digital sovereignty.
So this is basically what we are going to provide as a feedback is to pick up the points they want to address. So they want to for example as a goal they already defined it should be way more easy to take part in procurement process.
And at the moment it's very difficult and in particular if you are like a small or micro enterprise. It might be difficult to take part in such procurement reforms procurement procedures always sometimes the tenders are difficult to find it's difficult to like address the tenders and take part in this whole procedure.
It's very simple also they already said that they want to come up with a like made in Europe criteria and this would be interesting like in which places they want to be there.
And also for example they already said that they want to discuss if it should be voluntary or mandatory to come up with this made in Europe criteria.
And also if it should be like everywhere or just in specific strategic sectors. So then if so we need to discuss in which sectors also they want to strengthen competitiveness resilience and the economic security.
And they also address the topic of like geopolitical changes we are facing at the moment and how to address them.
So they want to already come up with a more strategic approach in procurement. So that was missing until today.
The question is like how far do they want to go so should it be mandatory should it be voluntary should it be just for some parts of the procurement reform or everywhere.
And this is basically what they are asking now and this is where we are going to contribute our feedback and there and like everyone else could also contribute to such feedback.
It's also not just limited to the European Union. So like everywhere in the world people can access this consultation and take part in this consultation and provide their views.
And based on that feedback what they get from the consultation itself but also then from other sources like expert groups in general like research and obviously their own thoughts.
And also the debates in the European Parliament that already happened we have seen there was already debates on procurement and tax or energy in the European Parliament.
So all of this will be gathered and will be like part of this impact assessment and so to say this discussion on how they should come up with a proposal.
And after this impact assessment so once they publish this they then will have another round of debates before they then ultimately present their proposal which they deal also like handed over to the parliament in the council to be modified and voted on.
So it's a very long process we are in the very first phases of this process but it's very important to be there early and to give in like our or your feedback very early to this in order to make sure that already the proposal that the commission will come up with is going in our direction and reflects our demands.
I now have two questions but I will ask each one separately and I will let you answer in between yes.
So first this procurement or this public procurement that they are referring to so it's not only for like the software part but it's also I don't know chairs desk whatever the public institutions are procuring.
Absolutely so I mean it's it's for everything that public authorities across Europe and like purchase and services works supplies accounting whatever so whenever a public administration is procuring something then these words should apply just to give you an idea.
So this these are 2.6 trillion euros a year which is procured a European might so that's a that's a 15% of the cross domestic product of the European Union right so it's really a lot of money and this will also mean that there will be dozens of lobbyists who are trying to be around in this process and who have very very specific demands and needs.
And only one part of this will be on a digital will be on on on software will be on digital sovereignty and even there it could be that it's not not a topic at all I doubt I do believe that digital sovereignty will play an important role in this fire or at least I hope and if you talk about it then we also need to talk about free software but we need to make here this is not like a software reform or like a IT package.
Or a digital package now it's about money spending of public authorities in general and as they also procure next to cars, chairs, desks and whatever you already said as they also procure digital goods then we need to make sure that these whenever we talk about digital and software that this bit of the reform addresses the public money public court demand.
We came up with a couple of years ago and that there is a free software approach in this public procurement reform since we do believe that this should be one of the strategic goals of the European Union to become independent to remove dependencies to get rid of Vendor Lock-ins to get rid of big tent and to come up with like their own solutions and tailor to their needs and procure what they need.
And what follows the European law and where we can make sure that we have to control over our technology here in Europe.
Now you have already answered my second question. My second question was about what is the important part in a strategic procurement from our side for digital sovereignty and what is needed there is feedback to the commission.
Yes, but you have already mentioned public money public code. Can you elaborate a bit on this and explain why public money public code is the only way to achieve digital sovereignty for the public institutions in Europe.
Absolutely, so maybe let's start with having a look at the current situation. So at the moment we mainly buy or procure big tech software for our administrations.
A lot of these machines are running with Oracle Microsoft and for other proprietary services that like push administrations into a vandalog and do not allow any interoperability.
This is first of all a problem for administrations themselves. So if administration A wants to be in touch with administration B in order to exchange data or to work on something share, then this might be difficult if they are not like interoperable and if there are no open standards that are like compatible with free software, which means they are all in a Vendor Lock-in and it's very difficult for them to exchange and to, for example,
collaborate and work together. So it's an administration problem, but it's also a problem if you talk to citizens, if you talk to businesses, so if administrations are basically they are there for us. So that would be normally the core idea.
And for this to be also good, right, if we are in touch with the administration that we are not in a lock in or that we can be sure that our data is handled in a way that it follows European law.
And for this, we need to make sure, for example, that we have some sort of transparency that we can see what the code does, for example, also, as already said, we want to have software which is tailored to the needs of our administrations and not to the business model of some on who sells the software.
This means we need to be able to modify the software and we need to be able to make the software secure by our own.
And for all of this, we need the four freedoms of resolver to use study share and improve. So these licenses allow us that we have the control over the technology we use that we can adapt the software to our needs that we can make it secure.
They are basically that we are having or achieving the stitches with sovereignty that everyone is talking about.
But also we are paying a lot of license costs at the moment. So if you look just a journey, for example, they sign the contract, which is worth billion with with Microsoft and Oracle just for licenses.
And if you would use this money to invest this money in the software itself, then you might have even better software in the end.
And also you can channel the money into the European market itself. So we can see that in particular administrations, procuring free software, then they are procuring from small and medium enterprises, mostly in the region itself.
So it's a business which is happening in your region, which is strengthening not only your digital sovereignty, also your local and regional economy.
So and by not pushing the money to big tech, but into SMEs and companies in Europe, we can not only strengthen our sovereignty, but also our economy.
And that is why I also do believe that to some extent, we do not really need the by European or made in Europe criteria, when we talk about the software sector, since it will happen by its own, if you say we want to procure free software.
So I said we see this from the data that whenever we invest in free software, it normally is coming from your software company next door, so to say, right, and not from overseas.
And that's why it's a very good idea to invest in free software. And that is also why we already a couple of years ago came up with this public money public code initiative, where we tried to convince administrations across Europe to follow this demand.
However, they procure something new or whenever they and also like when they come up this software by their own, then they should be released under a free software license.
So and this also helps them to have spillover effects to work cross border together to have maybe also share procurement initiatives or shared development initiatives.
So that administrations in Europe are working closer together and by thus also to follow also the idea of public money public code in this procurement reform in the bare minimum is to have a free software first policy, which means we need to flip the current idea.
So at the moment, it is often that proprietary software is procured in the first place and then they might think of free software second, but this we need to flip.
So they always should aim for procuring a free software in the first place and making sure that we reach our digital sovereignty, but that and that get rid of my knowledge.
Are there any challenges because as I gather from our talk and also from previous conversations we had in this regard, public money public is already a great framework that can be used for strategic procurement, but are there any challenges that public institutions are facing in this regard.
Like open washing or also exactly.
So I mean there, there are several problems, so to say first, as I already said, in beginning it's not only us who will be around in this process, but there will be many, many lobbyists also on lobbying on other areas and topics and it might be difficult to explain them why some ideas are slightly different in the digital.
Then if you procure a chair or a car, for example, right and supply chains in particular in free software are different from supply chains if you buy a chair or proprietary software.
So and that's why we need to explain them how supply chains in free software work and that the made in Europe criteria might be a bit misleading here since code is global.
And for this we need to make sure that this made in Europe criteria is not countering basically the idea of public money public code, but that we can make sure that it is important not that the software basically what that all parts of the software are coming from Europe, but that we have to control over the software that we are using in Europe.
That's the important part, right? And maybe that even like if companies in Europe that sell these services or that sell bits of software, whatever, right? So that code is global, right? So that's that's something important we have to tell them.
And also as said on the other side, the Microsoft and Google lobby is will also be there and tell them how soon and their solutions are this is already what we can see in debates since decades, right?
So how often have they tried to explain that there is some sort of data protection and that it's following European laws and then you have a court decision and then you have data protection officers that look at it and say no, no, no, it's not like that.
This is pure lobbying and this is I washing what you are doing, right? So and this this is something which we have to counter and also what you're already addressed there is always something like this open washing, which means we need to make sure that it's not only possible that someone claims to have free software, give it a free software label, right?
By, for example, just saying, yeah, look, the code is transparent. That's why I call it free software, but the other freedoms are missing. So we need to make sure that also like free software is then defined with the four freedoms and this possibly might not be this might not be possible in the reform package itself.
So it might not be the case that this is part of the law, but later explained in a guidance and in the implementation process on how we should come as this criteria and order, we make sure that we really procure free software and that there is no open washing.
So that means even if we, for example, achieve a free software or public money, public code approach in the law itself, it's not done. We then need to make sure that in the implementation process after the package has been loaded on it's really following clear criteria and give also advice to administrations in order to identify partners they can work with in order to get free software that is helping them.
And that they understand what they are procuring and that they are not like open washed in this procurement process. So this means not even after a successful reform package, it's over. So this is a very long fight, which is ahead of us where we need to make sure to also work in particular on the details.
So it won't be sufficient to just have a saying we need a free software first approach. We need to make sure that it's also really implemented because also what we see across Europe is that we in the last years got more and more strategy papers or even law.
And which always is coming with some sort of loopholes and here we need to make sure that these loopholes are addressed and also on the other hand that administrations are educated in a way that they can really procure free software which is helping them.
And so this means it's a really a long term game and that's why it's so important to be there early but also to be around there in five or six years when everything will be implemented and it's toggling down through the administration next door that then needs to make sure that they really procure free software to all our benefit and also be there for guidance and exactly.
This sounds like a lot of work Alex. Yeah it is. So when this regard it's also fun to work in between on use hacking for freedom. This is just a half year project for all participants and here we have a very, very long year activity in front of us.
So yeah, but it underlines again, I think the work that the efforts is doing in many areas and in many parts is often it's a very, very long term game. There are many processes and it's important to be involved in these processes.
Often it's not that visible what we are doing. I mean we already checked beforehand who already contributed to the consultation of the impact assessment. I think there are already some feedback there so it's impossible to read all of them. So this means if you are not working for the repeat commission who is paid for evaluating all of these consultation feedback it might be difficult for individuals to go through this.
So that's why it's important for us that we have this podcast where we can talk about this, where we can explain this to people, but also to bring in a bit more of transparency.
What is happening in the process? Where are we at the moment at the process and what's the current state of the debate since this is impossible for individuals to follow?
And we also need funding. So dear listener, in case you want to support us in our work and you want us to support and bringing transparency to you and talking about software freedom in the European Union and in Europe.
Please think about supporting us with a donation and you find more information under fsfe.org slash donate.
So yeah, we need your support to keep this work up and running. Thank you very much.
So Alex, what are the next steps and is there something our listeners can do apart from supporting us financially?
Absolutely, I mean, I said the consultation is open until end of January, so you can take part in this consultation too.
We will share the link in the show notes. This could be a one-pager. This could be a very elaborate document.
I mean, you can use our resources. We already said it took part in the consultation on the procurement reform itself.
Many parts of what we will put in this impact assessment consultation will be also being kind of like reused on what we already have said.
So it's also good idea for you if you have time, if you if you if you like such processes to take part in this consultation.
Other than that, yeah, after the consultation is done, as that the commission will evaluate and come up with the impact assessment itself.
And once this is there, we will then also go through this and share our feedback on this and and our assessment on this.
In the meantime, we will talk to decision makers in the commission in the UK Parliament to all but you prepare the crown to explain them and our ideas and also explain them how all of this works, how supply chains and for software work and so on and so forth.
Well, it's a good idea. Might so everything we just discussed. This is also something which we are continuously doing going to process and talking to decision makers, but also it's important to talk to your local politicians to the national politicians.
Since there is also the council on the other right right to member states also have a voice in this and here's important to also find the majority in the council in order for our to in order to get a majority for this public money public proposal.
So it's also always a very good idea to continuously talk about the idea of public money public code in your home country in order to prepare the crown for this reform.
As said, it's a year long fine, so we will keep you updated and whenever there is like an opportunity, but also an important need to get active.
We will tell you on our channels once here in the podcast, but also on our website or our social media channels, how you should get active, what you can do.
At the moment, it would be a good idea to take part in this consultation or also continuously talk about the public money public code demand towards your decision makers in your home country in order to prepare the crown.
All right, Alex and light of the time, I have to say we need to close this part to pass that piece.
I'm pretty pretty sure we will talk about this topic again very soon.
I'm also very sure.
Thank you so much, Alex. Thank you so much for your time.
Yeah, walking us through this, it's amazing that you took all the time this year to walk us through all of the policy related and European related topics.
It was a very great year and I'm very much looking forward to the next one because this is our last episode for 2025.
Oh, that was fun.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Bonnie and thanks to listeners for following us and following our work and please again, as always leave us feedback if you have some in order to improve our podcast.
And to be ready for next year with new episodes.
I can only second this. Dear listeners, thank you so much for being there with us for the whole year and we wish you a very merry Christmas and a very good new year.
And if you are around for the Congress of the CAUSE Computer Club, the CAUSE Communication Congress, it's called.
Then you can also step by at the Bits and Bäume Habitat, where we will be present with a booth.
Yeah, and very much looking forward to meeting you there.
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I am Sofia Aritz, and I am currently working at the Free Software Foundation Europe as part of our policy team.
Something which I have been truly enjoying and that has been possible thanks to all of the opportunities that have opened up,
after I participated in a fsfe's programming competition for teenage years, you're happy for freedom.
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Therefore, if you are eligible or no someone who is, I will heavily encourage them to sign up,
as this was a truly life-changing experience for me, and I know that it was also a wonderful experience for others.
So, don't think about it twice, head to yh4f.org and sign up today.
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