It should be very more clear that we want and should invest in free software and that
we want to get rid of big tech.
We want to get rid of dependencies.
We want to get rid of proprietary software.
We want administrations that control technology.
Hello, and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.
This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation, Europe.
We are a charity that empowers users to control technology.
And I'm Bernie Mehring.
And today I'm here with my colleague, Alexander Sander.
Hi, Alex.
Hi, Bernie.
Nice to have you back.
Yeah, happy new year.
Happy new year to you, too.
What has happened in the past weeks?
Oh, I gained some more kilos, I think.
So it was very tasty.
Not only days, but other than that.
Also, some things happened in the Free Software sphere.
So there's also some updates which we want to share with you in our very first
policy podcast episode here in the new year.
And so loads of food and loads of free software.
Sounds like a perfect and relaxing holiday, to be honest.
Yeah, half half.
OK.
Which half is not a relaxing part?
Well, well, there are a couple of consultations ongoing.
And yeah, so this is also something which we want to address today in our
podcast.
So, and yeah, this keeps us busy.
And also during holidays, we were working.
And so by that, we haven't been only eating, but also working.
OK.
How about you?
I did not have that much chance to eat.
I mean, there was enough food around at a 39C3.
Yeah, you have been at the conquest, right?
So how was it?
I was really nice.
It was like, there were a lot of people and it was just a special feeling of
coming back to this very, very special Congress and conference that you can
only experience with the CCC.
So it's like an amazing event and it's amazing to be there.
And we also had a podcast recording there with Heise, which I enjoyed quite a
lot.
It was about digital sovereignty.
So one of the topics that we to cover extensively in this podcast as well.
And it was really nice in German, sadly, only, but it was really nice to talk
with Sven Neuhaus from the Zendis and Anne Roth.
And of course, Keywan was also there from Heise and C't uplink.
About their views on digital sovereignty and was, yeah, well done, I think.
And it's worth a listen.
I know that you have listened to it.
Yeah, I have done so.
Yeah.
So I can recommend it definitely.
So it's a very interesting hour and, yeah, also, as you said, it's very interesting
to get some insights.
Also, I think the mixed panel is very interesting.
So we have people from tenders, as you said, so a governmental, yeah, more or less.
We can see from Anna who is working in the Bundestag on the field of digital.
And obviously you, as the expert professor of this, are really, really interesting balance
talent.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I also found it very entertaining to see the slightly different perspectives from the
background that everybody brings along.
So it also gives it a bit of a new and fresh air and to talk about this topic.
I will link it in the show notes so that you can also find it and listen to it, our
dear listeners.
No, listen to it.
It's really good.
Yeah.
All right.
So, but for this day, we will also talk about the digital decade policy program, which
wants to set up a monitoring and cooperation mechanism to achieve the common objectives
and targets for Europe's digital transformation.
This sounds...
That's what the PR said.
This is what the PR said.
Yes.
I was also like, okay.
But it's the sentence that puts everything into one sentence, which does not really say
much.
Absolutely.
So, can you take us through this?
What exactly is the digital decade policy program?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
It's another initiative by the European Commission.
So it's a European Union program and, yeah, obviously they talk about a whole decade.
So it's a program which lasts until 2030.
So that's the aim for this and every year they come up with some new initiatives.
They are also longer lasting than a year, but every year there's also some sort of evaluation
report.
And what they want to do in this digital decade policy program is to work basically on
four topics, which is infrastructure.
So they want to invest in a gigabit connectivity, European, whatever singing, then they want
to invest or also the ability crown for digital business in Europe.
They want to work on skills so that we have more ICT specialists here in Europe and ultimately
government plays also role so that the key public services are online and that you have
a EID and that you can access your health records online, stuff like this.
So and yeah, we basically focus mostly on the part of government, but also business since
business provides services for government.
And this has spillover effects on skills, so these are the topics for us.
We are interested in this digital decade policy program and what they do at the moment is
to run a consultation to see what they can do in the next five years and what they might
change or where they should put their focus on.
And this is what we want to talk about today.
So what can you contribute to this consultation and basically take on our views on this digital
decade policy program and also like put it in a broader context.
I mean, you'll listen probably to the other podcast episodes where we also talked about
the financial situation.
So the funding of free software also we talked a lot about procurement and stuff like
this.
So this is if you like just another program which is important for basically the use and
spread of free software in administrations across Europe and we want to have a look
at how is it working, what are they doing at the moment, where are we at the moment and
what can we expect from the next five years and what do we do demand basically for the
next five years in this digital decade policy program.
Right.
You've already covered some of the points that they consider important for the digital decade
policy program.
And where they constructed and what's the aim of this in total like what do they want
to achieve.
So I mean, we also talked about the digital Europe program which has a slightly comparable
name so to say if you like, which was set up in light of the Corona crisis that the
opinion and figured out that we are pretty much dependent on big tech and that it's very
difficult to have sewer and IT infrastructure.
So they started to work on this digital Europe program in order to address this.
And then next to it, they came up with this digital decade policy program which is if
you like a bit broader, but it also basically addressed the same topics like cybersecurity.
They talk about a set infrastructure stuff like this.
So it's a bit broader in terms of like it's not only about software, it's about digital
in general and there are also some, so to say, soft goals in this like, as I said, they
want to have more skills in Europe and for this they have several project programs.
But most of this is also like voluntary.
So the commission tries to stimulate cooperation between member states.
They try to come up with projects and ideas and want to basically make sure that member
states collaborate on this field of digital and particularly when you think about the free
software with its four freedoms to use that you share and improve.
For us, it's pretty obvious that free software should play a very, very important role in
all of this.
I can say it plays a role, but it could be way more proactive.
It could be way more ambitious and this is basically also what we put in our feedback
and we want to have this is also what we what we talked about the funding part.
We want to have this everything a bit more sustainable and a bit more mid and long term
oriented.
And often when we talk about the opinion and we see pilot projects, we see some loose
corporations, everything is a bit cracky so you don't know if it's still there tomorrow.
It's pretty much depending on member states initiatives.
So if they want to step in, if they want to contribute, if they want to collaborate
and to be honest, I would love to see a bit more pressure and power behind this and also
some more clarity on how important free software is in order to achieve this.
So what they, for example, have done in the past is to come up with the edic consortium.
So it's the European Digital Infrastructure Consortium.
So there are a couple of initiatives and one of these initiatives, one of these consortias
is around digital technological, so Renety, this was set up during the summit for European
digital sovereignty, which was happening in Berlin in November.
My colleague, Johannes, have been there and they are during that event, they have been
launching this consortium, so it's a pretty new thing.
And it's bringing together member states, namely France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy.
It's more or less supported by Luxembourg and Slovenia and there are some observers as
well, Poland and Belgium that might also join as members very soon here.
So you see, it's basically some member states coming together that want to work on this topic
of technological sovereignty.
For Germany, for example, it's a sovereign tech agency that works on cybersecurity as
well as the tenders, the organization which you just mentioned related to your podcast
where you attend it, so which is basically a state-owned company that comes up with open
desk, so on free software solution, for administrations to have a digital sovereign workplace.
So and they want to collaborate in this consortium in order to come up with pool of resources.
They want to share strategic best practices and ultimately maybe even code.
And this is happening in such a initiative, which is basically supported or which is basically
coming from this digital decade policy program.
So by thus, you can see how it works.
So you have basically the umbrella with the digital decade policy program and under this umbrella,
you have other initiatives that are going to be set up or that are already running like
this edit consortium on technological sovereignty.
And here, member states that are willing to work together, are coming together and do so.
And here you can also see that it's not covering every member state in the European Union nor
doesn't cover, so to say a European Union wide approach, it's more or less a coalition
of member states that are willing to work together, that are willing to collaborate
and that then come up with strategy solutions and hopefully a lot of free software,
which is then used among them.
For me, the question remains, how do we make sure it spreads across Europe?
How do we involve other member states and how do we make sure that they really make progress?
Do you see that the European Commission is doing something in this regard
or are they still waiting for member states who get active by themselves?
I mean, they do a lot of public relations around it.
Also, I do believe that this summit helped to promote this edit lounge,
but at the same time, this is something which I learned from Johannes,
who was at this summit for European digital sovereignty when this editing was launched,
that free software didn't play that major role there.
So it was more around this, by European, made in Europe, arguments,
the ministers have talked a lot to SAP, and they didn't talk that much to the free software companies there.
One could say they have been around, they have been recognized,
but there is still not the relevance and the importance of their plays in all of this,
is still not seen or addressed accordingly, I'd say.
So there is way more room for improvement.
I do believe it's a good first step, but there should be way more,
and this is also what I always say when we talk about funding,
it needs to be sustainable, right?
So we need to make sure that when they come up with these kinds of activities,
that they are mid and long-term oriented, that they receive the needed funding,
that they get resources, and that ultimately, the solutions they come up with are also used, right?
So it's not just about coming up with projects and saying,
look, now we have an alternative.
It's also about using these alternatives, and this is ultimately administrations.
So for example, if you look at the Ministry for Digitalization in Germany,
this is for me, obviously, the first ministry that should switch to Open Desk
and make sure they use it and show other administrations, institutions,
that it's working, and here we can also see that they struggle to spread their solutions
and that they really do migrations and replace the dependencies that they build over the last decades.
And here, I do believe the opinion that also member states could be very more ambitious
and actually act and use these solutions they come up with
and not just put them in the niche and put some nice PR around it,
but also implement and go forward and get rid of these dependencies,
get rid of proprietary software, and go in the direction of free software,
since this is the obvious choice to achieve digital sovereignty when we talk about software.
You mentioned that free software is not yet recognized as the important role it plays
because free software is everywhere, and you and our listeners, you all know this,
how important free software is to our digital life and our digital infrastructure.
What are we, the FSFE, doing to promote the standing of free software?
Because this is one of our core activities.
Absolutely. I mean, as I said, there is the ongoing consultation on this digital decade policy
program in order to give feedback to the commission how we do believe the next five years should look
like. Basically, what I was just referring to in the last minutes is what we put in writing in
this consultation. We ask for sustainable long term funding. We ask for free software first
policy. We ask to basically also use these kinds of solutions. This is what we put in the consultation,
and we do not stop with this consultation, and we also do not stop with the digital decade policy
program. We also directly talk to decision makers in the European Union, the commission,
but also the parliament. We also work on member states level, and by thus also try to
influence the council position here. Also, next to these programs, we also had the podcast on
procurement. There's also this ongoing consultation on the impact assessment on the procurement
reform, where they talk a lot about by European or made in Europe, and maybe, for example,
at rest, that free software is something global and that you should have an eye on this as well,
and ultimately, also next to the digital decade policy program and the procurement reform,
there's also ongoing consultation, which is pretty, pretty new on the open source strategy
of the European Union, so there is basically, you can also find this on our media channels,
where we give feedback on an evaluation of the European open source strategy,
and this is about to be renewed now, and here we will also take part in the consultation,
and this is also what I meant earlier when we started the podcast. There are lots of
consultations ongoing at the moment, so we are producing a lot of paper work at the moment,
and give feedback to the commission on all of the digital and free software policies, procurement,
but also funding, and what we try to achieve is to give them a big picture and to combine
activities in several fields, and to basically not only talk about the digital decade policy
program, but also procurement, but also a budget of the European Union and the open source strategy.
We also talked about stacks, you know the European commission is also working towards open
internet stack, where we also try to make sure that free software plays a very more important role,
and what we can see in all of this is that free software somehow plays a role, but we do believe
it should play a very more important role, it should be very more clear that we want and should
invest in free software, and that we want to get rid of big tech, we want to get rid of dependencies,
we want to get rid of proprietary software, we want administrations that control technology,
and when we talk about software, then the solution must be free software. This is what we are
trying basically in all of these fields by taking part in these consultations. This is also a call
for your dear listeners to also take part in these consultations. So it's important that they
that they see that there are a couple of voices out there that take care, so it definitely helps
to take part in such consultations. You can find our feedback on the half your save portal
of the European commission. If you put it in the show notes precisely, there you can read what we
put there as a feedback, you can come up with a remix of this or you can find your own words,
this is definitely helping in order to tell the commission that we do care, but also you
support us with a donation so that we basically can do the work and that we can come up with these
feedback to consultations, but that we are also able to travel to Brussels to talk to decision
makers, or that we can go to these kinds of events like the summit for European digital serenity,
so that we can take part. So this is how you can support us here. This is how you can help to make
sure that the free software ecosystem in Europe is spreading and living well. So basically our work
is to build the ground, so this means we educate decision makers, we tell them about our views,
we are there to answer and address their questions they might have, but also to bring in our positions
basically to fight for free software first policy. In all of these fields, also to try to connect
these topics, so you also need to know that it's not always the same people working on this,
and there are several director generals working on this, so DG, so the procurement reform is
happening somewhere else, then the budget debate, then the digital decade policy program,
other than the open source strategies, everything is handled by another DG, by another people,
they need to be educated basically, they need to be connected, they need to see what their
colleagues are doing, this is basically how we try to channel through these kind of debates,
connecting people, trying to bring in our positions, fighting for these positions, finding
majorities for these positions ultimately, and making sure that there is ultimately a free software
first policy in all of these files. That sounds like a lot of work. It is, but it's also to be honest,
something where we do make progress, it's small steps, that's for sure, but we do these small steps,
we try to be around, and hopefully we will very soon see major steps and major progress and
have an independent, well, basically not independent, but a solo rent, and the administration that can
control its technology. What's your feeling when you talk to MPs from the European Parliament?
Is there more understanding of what free software is than, like, let's say, five years ago,
we put in a lot of work and effort into this, or what's your personal
point of view here when you talk to the MPs, do they understand the arguments or how do they act?
I mean, first of all, it really depends on the group you look at, but also in general,
I would say the level of knowledge is rising, so that's definitely for sure, but also you can see
that in the last term, for example, we had the AI Act, we had the Cyber-Resilience Act,
so we had some very, very important, but also prominent files where free software played a role
in these files. We actively worked on that, and at the end of the term, I'd say many MPs
knew about it, many MPs understood our take, and that's why they also amended accordingly
to these files to make sure that free software is protected, or that there is a dedicated
wording on this in those files, but also after the elections, the European Parliament
was dramatically changed, not only by majorities, but also many of these, one could say,
than experts left the parliament, so for many, we had to start from scratch, we had to start to
build new relationships, this is also still ongoing, and in particular, if you look at files like
procurement, for example, right, so people working on these files are not digital experts, they are
experts for procurement, if you like, and if you look at procurement, we talk about chairs,
we talk about cars, we talk about whatever can be procured, and digital just plays
one role next to many, many, many others, so you can't expect that you find digital experts
in the field of procurement, for example, so we are coming up with completely new files
this term, so that means we are running into new, so to say, networks of decision makers
that need to be educated, so I wouldn't say we need to start from scratch, and I wouldn't say we
it's worse than five years ago, still we need to educate people a lot, but what I can see in
all of these meetings is that there is an interest in this, and that they are willing to understand,
and that they also see more and more the benefits, why one should invest in free software,
but also on the other side, which might be equally important, I'd say, is that we can get rid
of some myths more and more, right, so often we have seen or we still often see the
argument around security, for example, right, so if the code is transparent, then it's an issue
for security, for example, so this is sometimes some of these myths which we are confronted with,
and then we can educate people and tell people that's basically the opposite, it's true,
and by thus, I do believe that we, after this term, will have way more experts in Europe
coming from the procurement sector, for example, but also from budget debates, that also do
understand that there is not only a budget argument to go in the direction of free software,
but also so ran into security argument around it, and it's good that they see it, that they
understand it, and that they listen to it, and I also do believe that we can get closer and
closer and closer to this free software, first policy by convincing these people how far we can get,
that's difficult to say at the moment, also often we see that there are still many, many
loopholes in all of these initiatives, strategies, papers, so this is something what we try to fix,
also with some creative ways, one could say, but here I do believe this is something which we,
what we need to challenge for a very long time is to fix loopholes in all of this,
so the lobbyists on the other side are also doing their job, they also try to maintain their
business model for their proprietary software, and it's basically a fight for majorities,
but I do believe it's way better than a couple of years ago, and that we already made progress
not only the cyber resilience act, but also fights before like the copyright directive,
and also our takes on the open source strategy in 2020, for example, we can see progress,
we can see that more and more people take care, still in particular in this term we are addressing
completely new networks, they need to have the skills of the digital-to-decade policy program in
order to understand what's ongoing and why to pick free software and not a proprietary one.
Is there something that is really outstanding to you in this conversation?
I mean the outstanding is maybe a bit difficult, but what we hear very often is this
bi-European or made in Europe approach, and here it's a bit difficult to make them understand
that in particular free software is something global, right, and that they do not have to fear,
that they also do not have to fear, that a line of code is coming outside of Europe,
which is then in our infrastructure, for example, some of these kind of myths we are trying to
address here, and that we are at the moment really often confronted with, and so I do believe it
won't help us a lot in order to achieve this digital sovereignty to replace big tech by a European
proprietary vendor and one or come up with another vendor login, right, so that won't help us.
This is something which we need to address, where we need to educate, where we need to explain
decision-makers a lot, and this is probably one of the strongest narratives we have to counter
these days is that this bi-European or made in Europe argument doesn't make that much sense
if you talk about free software and that this should not be the criteria, but rather the criteria
should be that the software you are using has the four freedoms to use, study, share and improve,
and then in this case it doesn't matter that much where the code is coming from, but you need to
have the freedoms, which is way more important than where the code is coming from, so this is basically
something which I see quite often these days, and where we definitely have to make sure that we
can counter this narrative in the field of software. All right, is there something our listeners
can do directly now after listening to this podcast? I mean definitely, so there are
since the digital decade policy program consultation will be closed when you listen to it,
but as I said, there is still the ongoing consultation on the procurement reform. We also
contribute it to this. You can, to the first consultation on procurement, you can use this as a
blueprint in order to contribute to the impact assessment consultation. We also had a podcast
recording on this where you can re-listen our takes on that one. There is the consultation on the
European Union open source strategy where you can and should feedback, so this is definitely
something what you can do. You can, whenever you run into decision makers, tell them about the
benefits of the software, so help us with spreading the good news about the software, so this is also
something which is super helpful. Use your social media channels to promote best practice,
to promote our podcasts, for example, and ultimately, as also said in the beginning,
you can join us as a supporter, for example, and help us that we can do our work. Go to conferences,
spread the word, spread the good news, take part in these processes, listen to the podcast,
so this is also something where we normally refer to ongoing activities where you can and might
want to take part. So this is definitely, everything is helpful. Also, if you are a member states,
it's super helpful. If you try to talk to your local and national decision makers,
as said, often these initiatives in Europe are only happening because of the willingness of
member states and the more member states we have around the more progress we can do. So this
is definitely also helping if you are active in member states, so you don't have to go to Brussels
to fight for a free software, you can also do this in your hometown. Yeah. I do have a person
that I'm also sometimes in contact with decision makers. At the Congress, I received a postcard
that said, thank you so much for your energy and your support of free software, and it was a
very nice postcard that I received, and I have to be thinking that decision makers are also not all
of them, all of them, because I mean, not everybody can be on the same page, but it's also very nice.
Absolutely, yeah, this is very encouraging. Yeah, that's the word I was looking for. I found
this was a very good story, and listeners, if you know any decision maker, maybe at the next
Congress, you might receive such a postcard. So yeah, with this, I would say we put in all the links
in the show notes, you find our feedback there, go through our feedback, take this as a blueprint,
as Alex already proposed, and yeah, talk to your decision makers on a local level, on a member
state level of the European Union, or also contact your MEPs in the European Parliament,
and tell them how important free software is, and yeah, let us bring free software forward,
and support us also with the nation, if you can, so we can do the work for you as well.
Alex, do you have anything to add?
No, no, do so.
Thank you so much for taking us through the digital decade policy program.
I mean, it's supposed to be running for the next decade, so let's see what's happening there.
I'm quite sure you will follow up on it, right?
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Thank you for also doing this podcast, as you have said many times before.
And yeah, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you.
Thank you, listeners, for listening to our software freedom podcast.
If you liked this episode, please recommend it to your friends and rate it.
Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance of software freedom,
and its impact on our digital lives.
This podcast is presented to you by the free software foundation, Europe.
Yeah, a charity that works on promoting software freedom.
If you like our work, please consider supporting us for the nation.
You find more information under fsfe.org/donate.
Thank you so much.
Bye bye.
Hi, my name is Eric Da Silva.
How I got to fsafi is what's very passionate about digital rights.
For the reason why I'm staying at fsafi, I've been staying around since my
internship is because it's a very nice organization.
It's for very kind people who are very committed to what we're doing and are very sensitive to
the importance of political issues.
But for human aspect, it's very important for me.