WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:16.600 Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. 00:16.600 --> 00:20.600 This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 00:20.600 --> 00:25.600 We are a charity that empowers users to control technology and I'm Bonnie Mehring. 00:25.600 --> 00:29.400 Today I'm here with Dr. Lucas Lasota from... 00:29.400 --> 00:31.400 I'm trying to pronounce the correct, okay? 00:31.400 --> 00:38.200 The Chest Transition Center of the Martin Luther University of Halle, Wittenberg. 00:38.200 --> 00:42.600 Lucas is also in part-time working for the free Software Foundation Europe. 00:42.600 --> 00:44.600 So we are also co-workers. 00:44.600 --> 00:46.200 Yeah, thank you so much Lucas for making it. 00:46.200 --> 00:50.600 Thank you so much for being here and yeah, taking the time at Foster. 00:50.600 --> 00:53.000 It's a great pleasure to be here and I thank you very much, Bonnie. 00:53.000 --> 00:55.200 It has been a pleasure here. 00:55.200 --> 00:58.600 All right, how are you and how has Foster been so far? 00:58.600 --> 01:05.000 Well, I think you can guess from my voice that Foster is always like that. 01:05.000 --> 01:12.400 Very intensive, almost overwhelming, but very inspiring and very energizing. 01:12.400 --> 01:18.400 And it gives us this energy to keep going for software freedom for the entire year. 01:18.400 --> 01:23.600 I can imagine, I can imagine, it gives you a bit of a blast, but it's also like really exhausting at the same time. 01:23.600 --> 01:27.000 I have to take some days after Foster for sure. 01:27.000 --> 01:31.200 Well, I'll highlight so far like anything that you think, oh, this was really inspiring. 01:31.200 --> 01:35.200 This is the thing that will give me some energy boost for the next weeks. 01:35.200 --> 01:42.800 So, as you know, at the university and at FSFE, I mainly work with policy and legal issues. 01:43.000 --> 01:48.400 And during the whole year, these issues are very emotionally demanding, if you will, 01:48.400 --> 01:51.400 because you are always dealing with problems. 01:51.400 --> 01:59.000 Well, if people don't have problems, then we don't need the law and regulation on relation to problems. 01:59.000 --> 02:05.600 And during the entire year, you get accustomed to the challenge all the time. 02:05.600 --> 02:11.400 Now we are involved with platform regulation, Apple, Google, Microsoft. 02:11.400 --> 02:14.200 There's a lot of challenges for free and open source software. 02:14.200 --> 02:17.000 But here in Foster, you see the power of the community. 02:17.000 --> 02:19.000 And you see this thousand of developers. 02:19.000 --> 02:25.000 And you see their engagement, you see their excitement to produce alternatives 02:25.000 --> 02:29.600 to allow people to control technology, you know, to put forward software freedom. 02:29.600 --> 02:36.600 So I think my highlight to Foster is this energy boost that helps me keeping with my legal and policy work for the rest of the year. 02:36.600 --> 02:39.000 I can't imagine, I can't imagine. 02:39.000 --> 02:45.000 If so many people come together, there's like this energy that is accelerating between all of them. 02:45.000 --> 02:47.600 And it's like, yeah, it's amazing. 02:47.600 --> 02:51.200 I think for anyone based in Europe, even outside Europe, 02:51.200 --> 02:57.800 if you have the privilege and to visit Foster, I think even from anthropological point of view, 02:57.800 --> 03:02.000 I think it is a very, yeah, very rewarding experience. 03:02.000 --> 03:06.600 Again, imagine, but today, even so I would love to continue this conversation. 03:06.600 --> 03:12.200 We won't be talking about Foster, but we will be talking about the question, 03:12.200 --> 03:23.200 can the Digital Markets Act help to protect Free Software developers working with the Android Open Source project in short AOSP? 03:23.200 --> 03:24.200 Right? 03:24.200 --> 03:28.000 Yes. It's a very difficult question and happy to discuss with you today. 03:28.000 --> 03:33.200 I'm also happy and I will, I'm really looking forward to find out what you think about it. 03:33.200 --> 03:42.000 Before we dive into the topic, can you vary briefly outline your connection to the Digital Markets Act and how you came in contact with this? 03:42.000 --> 03:47.400 Yes. So a primer about this, why we're talking so much about this law. 03:47.400 --> 03:52.600 And if anyone goes to FSFE.org and go to the search function and put Digital Markets Act, 03:52.600 --> 03:56.000 you're going to see a lot of this stuff being published on this. 03:56.000 --> 04:09.600 Because we do think this is a very important regulation that can push to the adoption of free and open source software in critical aspects of our mobile devices, 04:09.600 --> 04:16.600 especially in relation to alternative app stores, browsers, search engines, operating systems. 04:16.600 --> 04:21.000 And because the main goal of this law, and this is an European Union law, 04:21.000 --> 04:26.000 that came into force in 2024, is to promote more competition in digital markets. 04:26.000 --> 04:28.600 That's why Digital Markets Act, you know. 04:28.600 --> 04:40.400 And the situation with the Drupal Apple slash Google over mobile ecosystems has been so intense and so entrenched that the regulators in Europe said 04:40.400 --> 04:47.000 we need to do something about it, we need to inject more competition in their markets and we need desperately for alternatives. 04:47.000 --> 04:53.600 And look, Bonnie, yesterday I was in a very nice talk from our colleague who is listening to this podcast. 04:53.600 --> 04:58.600 I highly suggest going to the Boston website and search for Gabriel Ku Wei Bin. 04:58.600 --> 05:02.600 And he gave a primer on the legal aspects of free and open source software. 05:02.600 --> 05:10.000 And he also gave us a historical, very short historical development of the movement from the legal perspective. 05:10.000 --> 05:17.000 And copyright establishes a monopoly when someone creates a creative work. 05:17.000 --> 05:19.600 So think about a book, think about software, a music. 05:19.600 --> 05:22.000 The creator has a monopoly over that work. 05:22.000 --> 05:26.000 Sometimes it's good, you know, because you wanted to have control about the work that you have. 05:26.000 --> 05:30.600 But sometimes this monopoly can be overstated, you know. 05:30.600 --> 05:37.400 And the main core of the Free Software movement was to disintermediate this monopolies. 05:37.600 --> 05:40.600 Then that's why we created a copy left. 05:40.600 --> 05:46.800 So the Free Software licenses is a medium to disintermediated monopoly over software. 05:46.800 --> 05:49.400 And we have been doing this for 40 years, right? 05:49.400 --> 05:54.800 And therefore this law that came in 2024 is just a next step on this fight. 05:54.800 --> 05:57.600 It's just a next step on this type of work. 05:57.600 --> 06:03.000 We are not concerning with copyright only, but we are concerning now with platform regulation. 06:03.000 --> 06:05.200 We are concerned about digital markets, right? 06:05.200 --> 06:14.800 And therefore this law is a trench where the FSFE and anyone that cares about Free Software should be involved. 06:14.800 --> 06:20.800 Because we really want to allow people to control technology, to control our mobile devices. 06:20.800 --> 06:27.800 And sometimes it's not possible without regulation because the situation becomes so disadvantages for Free Software developers, 06:27.800 --> 06:32.200 even for end user customers, not customers, I'm sorry, end users, right? 06:32.200 --> 06:33.800 Thank you. 06:33.800 --> 06:37.800 That without regulation we cannot do anything more about it, you know. 06:37.800 --> 06:41.800 Was this what you were thinking like when you were at the DMA, you were like, 06:41.800 --> 06:49.200 oh, this will be an next step to help end users to be more empowered. 06:49.200 --> 06:55.400 And that monopolies are not that much in the, in the power of controlling everything. 06:55.400 --> 06:58.400 Was this what you were thinking like when you read it? 06:58.400 --> 07:01.400 Yeah, that's a very good summary, yes. 07:01.400 --> 07:02.400 How did you feel about this? 07:02.400 --> 07:07.400 Were you like really inspired or were you like, I hope that this works out? 07:07.400 --> 07:09.400 Well, that's a very good question. 07:09.400 --> 07:18.400 I mean, when I jump out the bed every day, I think I have to think, well, this will go on our workout. 07:18.400 --> 07:20.400 Well, I hope it will work out. 07:20.400 --> 07:26.400 But this brings me to the question because we already touched a bit on the monopoly side. 07:26.400 --> 07:33.400 So it's now over 20 years ago that Google acquired the Android open source project, right? 07:33.400 --> 07:40.400 And your work of the University of Halle-Wittenberg, you did also study on Google 07:40.400 --> 07:46.400 and especially the policy shift in regard to AOSP. 07:46.400 --> 07:53.400 So in the study, you wrote the AOSP has served as a baseline not only for diverse commercial versions 07:53.400 --> 08:02.400 of Android-based operating systems, but also for alternative, non-profit community-driven versions of operating systems. 08:02.400 --> 08:09.400 Can you walk me through what happened like before Google took this policy shift in 2025 08:09.400 --> 08:16.400 and yeah, how Google has seen or how Google's role as a gatekeeper to be precise? 08:17.400 --> 08:23.400 Yeah, so just about some organizational aspects about this study before we move forward, 08:23.400 --> 08:25.400 this study has not been published yet. 08:25.400 --> 08:28.400 So we submitted this study to a publication in a legal journal. 08:28.400 --> 08:30.400 So this study has not been published. 08:30.400 --> 08:35.400 What we have is a working version that we already discussed in a conference. 08:35.400 --> 08:40.400 And this version that you have access is an internal one that we shared on this conference. 08:40.400 --> 08:43.400 And I'm happy to discuss this working version that you have. 08:44.400 --> 08:47.400 But this is not the official version that will be published yet, 08:47.400 --> 08:52.400 because we are waiting for the feedback of the peer review that we submitted. 08:52.400 --> 09:00.400 But I would like you to provide just a context on this study and why this is important work that we have been doing. 09:00.400 --> 09:08.400 Because in the last three years, my research work and also my work at the FSFE has been dealing with Apple. 09:08.400 --> 09:13.400 Apple has taken a very aggressive approach against this law, 09:13.400 --> 09:18.400 because this law tries to open up an infrastructure from Apple 09:18.400 --> 09:22.400 and to allow more competition on App stores, browsers, 09:22.400 --> 09:25.400 allowing interoperability for Free Software, 09:25.400 --> 09:31.400 not only for software, but Apple is questioning this whole law 09:31.400 --> 09:34.400 and saying that this law is in constitutional law, 09:34.400 --> 09:36.400 you know, it's not proportional. 09:36.400 --> 09:41.400 But sometimes we forget that there are other companies that this law applies to. 09:41.400 --> 09:46.400 And one of these companies are Google and other companies are Microsoft, Amazon, 09:46.400 --> 09:48.400 looking at their others. 09:48.400 --> 09:56.400 But the problem with Google is that how Google relates to this law is a little bit more nuanced than Apple. 09:56.400 --> 10:00.400 Apple has a very strong adversarial position against this law. 10:00.400 --> 10:04.400 But Google, since, as you already mentioned, in the beginning of this podcast, 10:04.400 --> 10:08.400 Google is responsible for the Android open source project. 10:08.400 --> 10:13.400 And Android open source project is a fundamental part of the Android operating system. 10:13.400 --> 10:23.400 And the Android operating system is the most popular and the most used operating system in the world, you know, by far, you know. 10:23.400 --> 10:25.400 And... 10:25.400 --> 10:27.400 You mean like on smartphone? 10:27.400 --> 10:28.400 Yeah. 10:28.400 --> 10:29.400 In mobile devices, right? 10:29.400 --> 10:36.400 So comes Android in the first place, then iOS in the second place and together, together, 10:36.400 --> 10:42.400 they have more than 99% of the entire market of mobile operating systems. 10:42.400 --> 10:45.400 We, of course, know we are from the Free Software community. 10:45.400 --> 10:49.400 We know that there are many others, alternatives, operating systems, 10:49.400 --> 10:53.400 that the Android base are not Android boys, they're the Linux phones, several of them. 10:53.400 --> 10:57.400 You know, but their part on the market are very thin, you know, 10:57.400 --> 10:59.400 that's less than 1%, unfortunately. 10:59.400 --> 11:01.400 And we want to change that. 11:01.400 --> 11:04.400 But today's topic is about Android. 11:04.400 --> 11:08.400 Perhaps we can do a podcast in the future about Linux phones. 11:08.400 --> 11:10.400 We did one. We did one in the past. 11:10.400 --> 11:11.400 I will link it on the show notes. 11:11.400 --> 11:12.400 Oh, that's a great, yeah. 11:12.400 --> 11:14.400 But we did one in the past. 11:14.400 --> 11:15.400 That's super cool. 11:15.400 --> 11:16.400 But... 11:16.400 --> 11:19.400 And Android, as you said, right? 11:19.400 --> 11:20.400 I would like to... 11:20.400 --> 11:25.400 Well, I'm old enough to remember 2007 the expectations we had. 11:25.400 --> 11:31.400 And Android, when Android came into the market, it was a blast, I remember. 11:31.400 --> 11:34.400 Everyone would like to have an Android phone. 11:34.400 --> 11:38.400 Because before that we were having kind of smartphones, 11:38.400 --> 11:41.400 but the smartphones, they were very limited in their capacity 11:41.400 --> 11:45.400 because they pre-installed apps just from the manufacturer. 11:45.400 --> 11:49.400 And Android came with this promise, you know, with this potential 11:49.400 --> 11:54.400 that you could install any software that you would like on your phone via the app store. 11:54.400 --> 11:59.400 And this would turn your smartphone as truly a general-purpose computer, 11:59.400 --> 12:03.400 you know, and you would have these awesome apps that you don't have in your PC 12:03.400 --> 12:07.400 because, well, the smartphone comes with other hardware functionalities. 12:07.400 --> 12:10.400 There's a camera, there's telemetry, there's a microphone, 12:10.400 --> 12:16.400 and you could bring software to a whole other level of experience and functionalities. 12:16.400 --> 12:17.400 And... 12:17.400 --> 12:20.400 I never looked at a smartphone like this, 12:20.400 --> 12:23.400 and now I feel like, oh, yeah, this is how I felt when I came in. 12:23.400 --> 12:26.400 That's how I felt when I got my first smartphone. 12:26.400 --> 12:28.400 Now everybody knows that I'm a bit older. 12:28.400 --> 12:29.400 Right. 12:29.400 --> 12:39.400 And I think Google understood the power of opening up their infrastructure 12:39.400 --> 12:42.400 to these type of contributions. 12:42.400 --> 12:47.400 Academically speaking, on a little bit more on the theoretical speaking, 12:47.400 --> 12:51.400 this strategic move has a name for it. 12:51.400 --> 12:54.400 It's called the power of the network effects. 12:54.400 --> 12:57.400 And what is the network effects? 12:57.400 --> 13:02.400 It means that any network, the value of this network, 13:02.400 --> 13:06.400 increase proportionally to the size of this network. 13:06.400 --> 13:10.400 So the bigger the network is, the more value it has. 13:10.400 --> 13:14.400 And that's why today, both Apple and Google, 13:14.400 --> 13:18.400 they don't want to lose control over their app stores 13:18.400 --> 13:23.400 because the app stores now it's a huge network of apps. 13:23.400 --> 13:26.400 And this network brings a lot of money to them. 13:26.400 --> 13:31.400 But aside from this, what really disrupt the market, 13:31.400 --> 13:34.400 in the end of the first decade of 2000s, 13:34.400 --> 13:37.400 we were talking about 2007 here, right, 13:37.400 --> 13:42.400 was when they opened up their infrastructure for apps, 13:42.400 --> 13:45.400 this disrupt completely the market, 13:45.400 --> 13:48.400 the dispute out of the market. 13:48.400 --> 13:51.400 Symbian, Nokia, they put out the palm. 13:51.400 --> 13:54.400 Remember palm, palm was super chic. 13:54.400 --> 13:56.400 So you're very young. 13:56.400 --> 13:59.400 No, I feel young again. 13:59.400 --> 14:04.400 But palm devices were the crème de la crème in the past. 14:04.400 --> 14:09.400 And they disrupted it. 14:09.400 --> 14:12.400 Now they're in museums. 14:12.400 --> 14:15.400 So Apple followed this, 14:15.400 --> 14:19.400 and they also opened up their infrastructure 14:19.400 --> 14:21.400 for external contributors. 14:21.400 --> 14:26.400 So the first version of the iPhone came without an app store. 14:26.400 --> 14:29.400 And there was what the first app store was, 14:29.400 --> 14:31.400 a free and open source one called CD. 14:31.400 --> 14:33.400 You could not install apps on it. 14:33.400 --> 14:36.400 No, no, the first version of the iPhone was completely closed 14:36.400 --> 14:39.400 and it came only with pre-installed apps. 14:39.400 --> 14:42.400 The first app store was a CD was a free and open source software. 14:42.400 --> 14:46.400 And two years later I don't know, 14:46.400 --> 14:50.400 Apple changed the operating system in order to block CD. 14:50.400 --> 14:54.400 And now the only way to install external software 14:54.400 --> 14:57.400 on smartphones were via their own app store. 14:57.400 --> 15:01.400 So the control over app stores already has a long history, 15:01.400 --> 15:03.400 a very long history. 15:03.400 --> 15:06.400 So why am I saying all of this? 15:06.400 --> 15:09.400 Because Google did one step further 15:09.400 --> 15:11.400 to not only open the app store, 15:11.400 --> 15:14.400 but to open the entire operating system. 15:14.400 --> 15:17.400 So they opened the operating system to free and open source. 15:17.400 --> 15:20.400 So Android, it is, well, at least, you know, 15:20.400 --> 15:23.400 parts of it, a free and open source project. 15:23.400 --> 15:26.400 There is one, which is licensed into the app 82. 15:26.400 --> 15:31.400 But the history doesn't end there, you know. 15:31.400 --> 15:33.400 And it would be very easy to say, 15:33.400 --> 15:38.400 yes, we have the most successful free and open source project of all time 15:38.400 --> 15:41.400 because billions of people are using it. 15:41.400 --> 15:44.400 But the history unfortunately doesn't end there. 15:44.400 --> 15:50.400 And Google has excerpt control over iOSP in different forms, 15:50.400 --> 15:53.400 not only via the licensing aspect. 15:53.400 --> 15:55.400 And we can talk about this. 15:55.400 --> 16:01.400 How to control iOSP in a way that would hinder software freedom 16:02.400 --> 16:05.400 to others to exercise this traditional way 16:05.400 --> 16:10.400 that we see software freedom in such powerful ways 16:10.400 --> 16:15.400 and anti-competitive ways that in 2018, 16:15.400 --> 16:20.400 you know, Google got record fines from the commission 16:20.400 --> 16:24.400 because of this anti-competitive practice. 16:24.400 --> 16:26.400 I can imagine what was this fine about 16:26.400 --> 16:30.400 and like what was this EU commission saying there? 16:30.400 --> 16:34.400 So Google's strategy was a pretty clever one in the beginning 16:34.400 --> 16:36.400 so they open up the platform. 16:36.400 --> 16:40.400 And then suddenly, you know, if you were a manufacturer, 16:40.400 --> 16:43.400 if you were a smart one manufacturer, 16:43.400 --> 16:48.400 then you could adapt the functionalities 16:48.400 --> 16:51.400 of your devices to the operating system. 16:51.400 --> 16:55.400 And this was something truly revolutionary, you know. 16:55.400 --> 16:59.400 Because manufacturers, they always have the problem of 16:59.400 --> 17:01.400 the chicken and egg, you know. 17:01.400 --> 17:03.400 If you want a successful device, 17:03.400 --> 17:06.400 you need this operating system for it. 17:06.400 --> 17:09.400 But then, in order to have an operating system, 17:09.400 --> 17:11.400 you need a device for it. 17:11.400 --> 17:17.400 Let's put this on a context. 17:17.400 --> 17:21.400 Recently, I met some folks from risk five. 17:21.400 --> 17:25.400 Risk five is an open hardware specification for chips 17:25.400 --> 17:30.400 and they were telling their talks exactly this problem. 17:30.400 --> 17:34.400 They wanted to find a device that would enable them 17:34.400 --> 17:37.400 to have risk five, you know, 17:37.400 --> 17:40.400 and having this open architecture on laptops, 17:40.400 --> 17:43.400 but then they have to find an operating system for this. 17:43.400 --> 17:46.400 And so it took several years for them, 17:46.400 --> 17:50.400 but yeah, Ubuntu agreed and then they found also a device manufacturer. 17:50.400 --> 17:53.400 But anyway, so let's go back to 2007. 17:53.400 --> 17:55.400 In 2018. 17:55.400 --> 17:57.400 No, no, I started with 2008. 17:57.400 --> 17:59.400 2018 is the fine, right? 17:59.400 --> 18:00.400 Yes, it is. 18:00.400 --> 18:02.400 Until we got there. 18:02.400 --> 18:04.400 So manufacturers were facing this problem. 18:04.400 --> 18:06.400 You know, and they said, okay. 18:06.400 --> 18:08.400 Okay, I have this cool device, 18:08.400 --> 18:09.400 but I need an operating system. 18:09.400 --> 18:13.400 But the operating system is very expensive to develop. 18:13.400 --> 18:16.400 You know, think about how many hours of work you need 18:16.400 --> 18:18.400 to have a cool operating system. 18:18.400 --> 18:19.400 And then you have apps. 18:19.400 --> 18:20.400 You need to add the apps. 18:20.400 --> 18:22.400 And then the apps should run on the operating system. 18:22.400 --> 18:25.400 And you know, how are we going to do this? 18:25.400 --> 18:29.400 You know, so Google came with a solution for this. 18:29.400 --> 18:31.400 And they said, look, we will have Android. 18:31.400 --> 18:35.400 Android will be open and you will be able to adapt your devices 18:35.400 --> 18:37.400 to have Android running on it. 18:37.400 --> 18:40.400 So they really solve this problem 18:40.400 --> 18:43.400 for many, many, many, many manufacturers. 18:43.400 --> 18:44.400 You know? 18:44.400 --> 18:46.400 So manufacturers, okay, cool. 18:46.400 --> 18:50.400 But then here comes the trick. 18:50.400 --> 18:51.400 You know? 18:51.400 --> 18:54.400 And I would like to introduce here in our talk 18:54.400 --> 18:56.400 how Android is organized. 18:56.400 --> 18:58.400 The Android stack, right? 18:58.400 --> 19:02.400 Because the Android stack is where Google exerted it 19:02.400 --> 19:06.400 and exerced control over OSP until today. 19:06.400 --> 19:07.400 You know? 19:07.400 --> 19:11.400 And this also what led the European Commission 2018 19:11.400 --> 19:14.400 to establish records finds. 19:14.400 --> 19:16.400 You know, it was really. 19:16.400 --> 19:18.400 I don't have the, I forgot the numbers. 19:18.400 --> 19:19.400 But I may be wrong. 19:19.400 --> 19:20.400 You can check. 19:20.400 --> 19:22.400 But it was on the billion scale. 19:22.400 --> 19:24.400 That's quite a lot of money. 19:24.400 --> 19:25.400 Very. 19:25.400 --> 19:28.400 Because with this, what I'm going to say right now, 19:28.400 --> 19:33.400 Google was able to lock in entirely all the manufacturers 19:33.400 --> 19:35.400 on the Android ecosystem. 19:35.400 --> 19:38.400 So by opening up the operating system layer 19:38.400 --> 19:41.400 to free and open source software, 19:41.400 --> 19:45.400 Google was able to immediately attract millions and millions 19:45.400 --> 19:49.400 of, you know, the developers that were interested 19:49.400 --> 19:52.400 into contributing to the platform that was already, you know, 19:52.400 --> 19:53.400 exploring. 19:53.400 --> 19:55.400 They said, okay, we're going to be there. 19:55.400 --> 19:58.400 And they were also able to attract the manufacturers. 19:58.400 --> 20:00.400 So they were able to bring together. 20:00.400 --> 20:03.400 And this is what makes a platform good. 20:03.400 --> 20:06.400 A platform brings different sides together. 20:06.400 --> 20:08.400 And Google did this with Android. 20:08.400 --> 20:09.400 Android is a platform. 20:09.400 --> 20:10.400 Yeah. 20:10.400 --> 20:12.400 So that other device manufacturers could use Android 20:12.400 --> 20:16.400 and just use, have a bit of a customized version. 20:16.400 --> 20:18.400 But they are then also part of this. 20:18.400 --> 20:21.400 And Google is like there providing the services. 20:21.400 --> 20:22.400 Yes. 20:22.400 --> 20:23.400 But here's the trick. 20:23.400 --> 20:27.400 Because as soon as you license your operating system 20:27.400 --> 20:30.400 as free and open source software, 20:30.400 --> 20:34.400 this gives them the permission to market, you know, 20:34.400 --> 20:38.400 they can market and they can have their own version of it. 20:38.400 --> 20:39.400 Right? 20:39.400 --> 20:42.400 And well, we could have. 20:42.400 --> 20:43.400 Right? 20:43.400 --> 20:46.400 And I think this is the beauty of free and open source movement. 20:46.400 --> 20:48.400 We can have, you know, many, many of them. 20:48.400 --> 20:49.400 Right? 20:49.400 --> 20:53.400 But then, and this only became clear in 2018. 20:53.400 --> 20:57.400 Because, you know, it was in 2018, where the world understood 20:57.400 --> 21:02.400 how Google have this strategy around our speed that, you know, 21:02.400 --> 21:06.400 that didn't allow alternatives to strive. 21:06.400 --> 21:09.400 How they have to network and control, basically. 21:09.400 --> 21:10.400 Yes. 21:10.400 --> 21:16.400 And so via agreements with manufacturers, side agreements, right? 21:16.400 --> 21:19.400 So it was not on the license, you know, 21:19.400 --> 21:23.400 it was side agreements on the compatibility side. 21:23.400 --> 21:27.400 You know, so Google said, okay, so we wanted to be compatible 21:27.400 --> 21:28.400 with Android. 21:28.400 --> 21:31.400 You know, we have to sign this agreement with me, this side agreement. 21:31.400 --> 21:33.400 So we have the license here on one hand, 21:33.400 --> 21:36.400 but there is the agreement on the other hand. 21:36.400 --> 21:41.400 And these agreement, there were clauses forbidding manufacturers 21:41.400 --> 21:43.400 to fork Android. 21:43.400 --> 21:46.400 So it was called anti-forking agreements. 21:46.400 --> 21:51.400 You know, if you are, if you decided to fork Android, 21:51.400 --> 21:56.400 then you would not be allowed to install the Google suite. 21:56.400 --> 21:58.400 And what is the Google suite? 21:58.400 --> 22:01.400 Google suite is their Google Play Store. 22:01.400 --> 22:06.400 The security aspects of the Play Store, you know, 22:06.400 --> 22:11.400 and all the apps that Google in the old history has developed 22:11.400 --> 22:16.400 and has acquired YouTube, Chrome, and many, many other apps 22:16.400 --> 22:20.400 that people, well, they like to have on their smartphones, you know. 22:20.400 --> 22:22.400 You mean like the Google services that they... 22:22.400 --> 22:26.400 The Google services, the Google service, you know. 22:26.400 --> 22:31.400 And this was a very strong, disincentive 22:31.400 --> 22:34.400 and very strong threat to manufacturers, you know. 22:34.400 --> 22:41.400 Otherwise, they would go back pre-2007 when they had to develop 22:41.400 --> 22:44.400 their own operating system, you know. 22:44.400 --> 22:49.400 And it's super, super cool. 22:49.400 --> 22:52.400 I mean, cool in one hand as a researcher to read about it, 22:52.400 --> 22:55.400 but in other hand, it's very sad. 22:55.400 --> 23:00.400 But because they were managed to keep basically 23:00.400 --> 23:04.400 the entire ecosystem of Android manufacturers 23:04.400 --> 23:07.400 into this very strict locking. 23:07.400 --> 23:10.400 Until 2018, when the Commission said, 23:10.400 --> 23:14.400 man, this is super anti-competitive, you know. 23:14.400 --> 23:18.400 And there's a problem there, you know. 23:18.400 --> 23:21.400 And on a side note, it's very interesting, 23:21.400 --> 23:25.400 because you can read several analysis in 2007 23:25.400 --> 23:31.400 that historically, Microsoft was able to do this 23:31.400 --> 23:34.400 with laptops of computers. 23:34.400 --> 23:37.400 And in 2008, the vice manufacturer said, 23:37.400 --> 23:40.400 we don't want it to have a Microsoft 2.0 in our lives. 23:40.400 --> 23:43.400 And that's why we need an open source solution. 23:43.400 --> 23:46.400 And Google came with an open source solution, 23:46.400 --> 23:48.400 but Google were able to... 23:49.400 --> 23:54.400 But on the positive side of things, you know, 23:54.400 --> 23:57.400 not to be standing that the device manufacturers 23:57.400 --> 24:03.400 got locked in in this environment, you know. 24:03.400 --> 24:07.400 The nature, the free open source nature of iOSP 24:07.400 --> 24:11.400 allowed for fork if you were not a manufacturer. 24:11.400 --> 24:13.400 So, you know, if you don't have a device 24:13.400 --> 24:16.400 and you don't want it to enter in these compatibility agreements 24:16.400 --> 24:19.400 with Google, you could fork, you know. 24:19.400 --> 24:21.400 And you could create custom ROMs. 24:21.400 --> 24:22.400 Yes, exactly. 24:22.400 --> 24:26.400 What changed then with the release of Android 16? 24:26.400 --> 24:30.400 So, what, like, this was before 2025. 24:30.400 --> 24:33.400 But what happened afterwards, like, with Android 16, 24:33.400 --> 24:35.400 there was a policy ship. 24:35.400 --> 24:36.400 Yes. 24:36.400 --> 24:37.400 Precisely. 24:37.400 --> 24:40.400 And this is completely related now to alternative ROMs. 24:40.400 --> 24:42.400 And what is alternative ROMs? 24:42.400 --> 24:46.400 For audience, audience that is hearing this term for the first time. 24:46.400 --> 24:50.400 You know, technically, this is not a correct term 24:50.400 --> 24:53.400 to alternative ROMs, because we're not talking about ROMs, 24:53.400 --> 24:54.400 precisely. 24:54.400 --> 24:56.400 But basically, alternative operating systems 24:56.400 --> 24:57.400 that are based on Android. 24:57.400 --> 25:01.400 So, there is Android stock that is developed and controlled by Google. 25:01.400 --> 25:06.400 But then you can fork this and then you can make your own customized, 25:07.400 --> 25:10.400 you know, altered version of Android. 25:10.400 --> 25:11.400 There are several of them. 25:11.400 --> 25:15.400 You know, there are the very privacy-oriented ones like Grafino AS, 25:15.400 --> 25:20.400 there are ones that are intended to allow a great deal of compatibility 25:20.400 --> 25:23.400 with different types of devices like LanoAjo AS. 25:23.400 --> 25:27.400 There are other ones like Morena, EOS. 25:27.400 --> 25:29.400 There are many of them out there. 25:29.400 --> 25:30.400 Many, you know. 25:30.400 --> 25:33.400 We also have them with the free-your-and-work initiative. 25:33.400 --> 25:34.400 We have a page. 25:34.400 --> 25:37.400 We can link that in the show and other people can look it up. 25:37.400 --> 25:38.400 Yeah, yeah. 25:38.400 --> 25:41.400 So, they come in different flavors. 25:41.400 --> 25:44.400 But I think security and privacy are the main drivers. 25:44.400 --> 25:48.400 People, they want their Android devices to be a little bit more secure 25:48.400 --> 25:54.400 than they search for these alternative Android operating systems. 25:54.400 --> 25:58.400 But again, I would like to highlight that these are not Linux phones. 25:58.400 --> 26:00.400 They depend on Android. 26:00.400 --> 26:06.400 And they depend on how information is made available on Android. 26:06.400 --> 26:12.400 And this shift that you just mentioned is Google hindering 26:12.400 --> 26:17.400 a big deal of interoperability information inside OSP 26:17.400 --> 26:24.400 that can create a big struggle for these alternative ROMs to survive. 26:24.400 --> 26:28.400 You know, so it's basically enclosing, 26:28.400 --> 26:35.400 it's a step on enclosing more of a OSP restricting these alternative ROMs. 26:35.400 --> 26:40.400 And together with my research group, we work on this, 26:40.400 --> 26:43.400 we think that this is not compatible with this law 26:43.400 --> 26:46.400 that we mentioned in the beginning of our podcast, Digital Market Act. 26:46.400 --> 26:50.400 We do believe that interoperability, mandating this law is very broad. 26:50.400 --> 26:56.400 And this shifts what answering is that Google is stopped to provide 26:56.400 --> 27:01.400 some type of information that are very important for alternative ROMs. 27:01.400 --> 27:06.400 For example, interoperability information regarding the device, 27:06.400 --> 27:09.400 called the device trees, interoperability information 27:09.400 --> 27:14.400 regards to the source code history, you know, and also hardware drives. 27:14.400 --> 27:19.400 So this were type of information that Google decided to hinder 27:19.400 --> 27:23.400 or to publish later, sometimes they blocked, 27:23.400 --> 27:25.400 but sometimes they decided to publish later. 27:25.400 --> 27:30.400 So it created barriers for these alternative operating systems 27:30.400 --> 27:34.400 to compete with Google stock Android. 27:34.400 --> 27:38.400 This does this, like, hinders them to continue to developing 27:38.400 --> 27:43.400 those alternative ROMs or will there be a way around? 27:43.400 --> 27:46.400 Like, because you did some any research, 27:46.400 --> 27:50.400 you highlighted, you did some interviews with developers, 27:50.400 --> 27:52.400 as far as I understood. 27:52.400 --> 27:55.400 And like, what was their reaction towards this? 27:55.400 --> 28:01.400 So their reaction was quite negative and very worrisome. 28:01.400 --> 28:05.400 And they're saying this puts high loads on us 28:05.400 --> 28:09.400 to reverse engineer this type of information. 28:09.400 --> 28:12.400 And the thing is that outside of this law, 28:12.400 --> 28:15.400 this would create already competitive issues. 28:15.400 --> 28:18.400 But then the difference between competition law 28:18.400 --> 28:21.400 and this particular law, the DMA that we're talking about, 28:21.400 --> 28:26.400 is that in competition law, we need to wait until we see the harm. 28:26.400 --> 28:30.400 So we have to wait some years, and then... 28:30.400 --> 28:35.400 Oh, yes, indeed, there are some harm in the community. 28:35.400 --> 28:38.400 But this law is different. 28:38.400 --> 28:41.400 There is already a do-and-don't list. 28:41.400 --> 28:43.400 We don't need to wait. 28:43.400 --> 28:46.400 I think that blocking this type of interoperability information 28:46.400 --> 28:48.400 is already against this law. 28:48.400 --> 28:52.400 And that's why we tried to build a legal argument for this. 28:52.400 --> 28:55.400 Look, we do believe that inside Google, 28:55.400 --> 28:59.400 there's a lot of people that believe in free and open-source software. 28:59.400 --> 29:02.400 Google is a company that was founded on these ideals. 29:02.400 --> 29:05.400 They have a very strong Ospo. 29:05.400 --> 29:09.400 They have a very strong food on the community. 29:09.400 --> 29:12.400 And therefore, we do believe that this type of work 29:12.400 --> 29:16.400 helps them to re-evaluate their practices 29:16.400 --> 29:22.400 and to let alternatives inside the free and open-source movement to thrive. 29:22.400 --> 29:24.400 I hope it will. 29:24.400 --> 29:28.400 But was this also like the researchers in the interviews also see this? 29:28.400 --> 29:33.400 Or was it more like that they are afraid that they will have to stop? 29:33.400 --> 29:36.400 I mean... 29:36.400 --> 29:38.400 Sorry, not researchers, but developers. 29:38.400 --> 29:41.400 Yes, exactly. 29:41.400 --> 29:46.400 So I think that when you depend on a platform, 29:46.400 --> 29:51.400 any platform, there is an imbalance. 29:51.400 --> 29:55.400 And this is normal in any platform. 29:55.400 --> 30:02.400 Unless the platform is really democratically governed. 30:02.400 --> 30:05.400 But otherwise, there is always this imbalance. 30:05.400 --> 30:07.400 And we are trying... 30:07.400 --> 30:08.400 Like the hierarchy. 30:08.400 --> 30:09.400 Yes. 30:09.400 --> 30:13.400 And we are trying with regulation to level a little bit more the playing field. 30:13.400 --> 30:18.400 So at least we can have alternatives inside this ecosystem. 30:18.400 --> 30:22.400 So end users can choose and can have more competition among themselves, 30:22.400 --> 30:26.400 among alternative ROMs and stock Android itself. 30:26.400 --> 30:33.400 So I really don't want to have only one provider of Android. 30:33.400 --> 30:39.400 I think Android is a marvelous technological speaking operating system. 30:39.400 --> 30:44.400 And since it is fundamentally free and open source on its core, 30:44.400 --> 30:47.400 I think that this alternative ROMs they should thrive. 30:47.400 --> 30:52.400 They should allow people to have alternatives to install on their Android devices. 30:52.400 --> 30:59.400 And this is the goal of our work in the DMA is to inject more competition into Android ecosystem. 30:59.400 --> 31:04.400 Do you think there is an actual chance that a DMA can help us here to predict 31:04.400 --> 31:08.400 Free Software developers or is it a two-flastiger? 31:08.400 --> 31:09.400 No. 31:09.400 --> 31:14.400 No, I do think it's a viable instrument to search for. 31:14.400 --> 31:18.400 But look, it's not a miracle's instrument. 31:18.400 --> 31:20.400 Nowadays, in the EU... 31:20.400 --> 31:23.400 I want to have that because make it like that. 31:23.400 --> 31:26.400 Look, we are talking about digital sovereignty. 31:26.400 --> 31:28.400 We are talking about democratization. 31:28.400 --> 31:30.400 We are talking about the next generation of the internet. 31:30.400 --> 31:34.400 We are talking about the future of the web. 31:34.400 --> 31:36.400 The DMA is only one instrument. 31:36.400 --> 31:38.400 And I am a legal person. 31:38.400 --> 31:40.400 And that's why I talk a lot about the DMA. 31:40.400 --> 31:46.400 But if you go to any other strategist in the FSC in my research group at the university, 31:46.400 --> 31:49.400 there are people looking into other aspects. 31:49.400 --> 31:55.400 So we need to talk how to fundamentally change digital markets to a more democratic one. 31:55.400 --> 31:58.400 But DMA can help certainly, but alone it cannot do. 31:58.400 --> 32:00.400 So we need funding for Free Software. 32:00.400 --> 32:02.400 We really need funding for Free Software. 32:02.400 --> 32:06.400 And not only VC type of fund, we need a really public money type of fund 32:06.400 --> 32:11.400 that will enable collective effort on our society to Free Software. 32:11.400 --> 32:13.400 That is a public good. 32:13.400 --> 32:15.400 Free software is a public good. 32:15.400 --> 32:16.400 It's digital commons. 32:16.400 --> 32:19.400 Think about a park in our city. 32:19.400 --> 32:20.400 Think about a highway. 32:20.400 --> 32:23.400 Think about a railroad. 32:23.400 --> 32:25.400 They are public. 32:25.400 --> 32:27.400 And Free Software is the same. 32:27.400 --> 32:31.400 So therefore, we need to diversify the sources of funding. 32:31.400 --> 32:36.400 We need to diversify the strategy in order to make the digital markets more democratic. 32:36.400 --> 32:40.400 DMA can help, but we need many, many other venues and instruments. 32:40.400 --> 32:41.400 I absolutely agree. 32:41.400 --> 32:44.400 We need strategic and long term funding, especially. 32:44.400 --> 32:46.400 So it does not need to be short term. 32:46.400 --> 32:49.400 It needs to be really long term so that others can rely on it. 32:49.400 --> 32:51.400 And that it will be there. 32:51.400 --> 32:54.400 What's the European Commission's perspective on this? 32:54.400 --> 32:59.400 Do you know if they think they will act up on the shift in the Google policy? 32:59.400 --> 33:01.400 Yes, we will talk with them. 33:01.400 --> 33:03.400 They are monitoring this. 33:03.400 --> 33:10.400 And we are also monitoring their activity on this. 33:10.400 --> 33:18.400 A very good news I can share is that last week the European Commission started a new regulatory process 33:18.400 --> 33:26.400 to help Google to comply with the digital markets act in relation to interoperability and AI. 33:26.400 --> 33:30.400 AI falls a little bit out of scope of what we are talking about here, 33:30.400 --> 33:36.400 but the interoperability part for sure is included on the scope of this. 33:36.400 --> 33:40.400 And we will make sure on our research that the university 33:40.400 --> 33:44.400 or in our monitoring type of work that we do in the FSFE, 33:44.400 --> 33:50.400 to have DMA being forest on a Free Software developer friendly way. 33:50.400 --> 33:51.400 This is good to know. 33:51.400 --> 33:54.400 I'm very happy that there's a goal for us. 33:54.400 --> 34:00.400 So to finalize this, do you think that the DMA can actually help here? 34:00.400 --> 34:03.400 Like that it's protecting Free Software developers? 34:03.400 --> 34:04.400 Yes or no answer? 34:04.400 --> 34:05.400 Yes. 34:05.400 --> 34:06.400 Perfect. 34:06.400 --> 34:07.400 Thank you so much. 34:07.400 --> 34:08.400 I'm very much looking forward to this. 34:09.400 --> 34:11.400 How can the community help now? 34:11.400 --> 34:14.400 Oh, that's perhaps the most important question. 34:14.400 --> 34:17.400 And I'll try to be very concise on this. 34:17.400 --> 34:25.400 I'm very, very grateful for the Android developers from different operating systems that help us to understand all of this. 34:25.400 --> 34:27.400 And they were so nice. 34:27.400 --> 34:34.400 And I will make sure that in our next I love Free Software today to have a very beautiful message to all of them out there. 34:34.400 --> 34:38.400 But how the community can help is with technical advice to us, 34:38.400 --> 34:44.400 you know, spreading the world about this and leveraging our position together. 34:44.400 --> 34:46.400 So we have a coalition. 34:46.400 --> 34:50.400 We have an allies together and say, look, this is important for the whole movement. 34:50.400 --> 34:51.400 Thank you, Lucas. 34:51.400 --> 34:52.400 Thank you so much for being here. 34:52.400 --> 34:54.400 Thank you so much for walking us through this. 34:54.400 --> 34:56.400 And yeah, thank you for taking the time. 34:56.400 --> 34:58.400 The pleasure is always my thank you so much. 34:58.400 --> 34:59.400 This was really interesting. 35:00.400 --> 35:07.400 I'm, yeah, I'm now really much looking forward to the community coming back to us and letting us know what they think as well. 35:07.400 --> 35:11.400 Thank you also for the first live edition of the software freedom podcast. 35:11.400 --> 35:13.400 Thank you so much for being here. 35:15.400 --> 35:17.400 This was the software freedom podcast. 35:17.400 --> 35:22.400 If you liked this episode, please recommend it to your friends and rated. 35:22.400 --> 35:28.400 Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance of software freedom and its impact on our digital lives. 35:29.400 --> 35:34.400 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe, 35:34.400 --> 35:39.400 and we are a charity that works in promoting software freedom. 35:39.400 --> 35:43.400 If you like our work, please consider supporting us for the nation. 35:43.400 --> 35:48.400 You can find more information under fsfe.org/donate 35:48.400 --> 35:50.400 Thank you so much for listening. 35:50.400 --> 35:51.400 Bye-bye. 35:59.400 --> 36:01.400 Bye-bye.