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Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe.
We are a charity that empowers users to control technology.
I'm Bonnie Mehring, and today I'm here with Ralf Hersel.
The podcast from GNU/Linux.ch.
But not only is Ralph the host of the podcast, he's also part of the FSFe's local group in Zurich.
Hello Ralph, thank you so much for making it.
Hello Bonnie.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you very much.
Thank you so much for making it.
Hello Bonnie.
Thank you for having me.
And what I just recognized is that GNU/Linux say hard doesn't sound very well in English.
So if you have to say GNU/Linux.ch.
And since I have to talk about this in this episode, I think I will shorten it by just saying GL.
Okay, GL sounds very like it's a very important instrument.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Okay.
So we just noticed that this is the first time that you are part of the software freedom podcast.
But I have been in the Captain it's Wednesday podcast beforehand.
And we also picked up on that we do this podcast recording quite differently, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, so at the Captain it's Wednesday podcast we have everything is very automated.
So I just have after recording to push one button and then the mix and everything and the publication.
And all of this is done automatically.
But I will talk about this later.
I'm very curious to learn more.
So today we will also not only talk about podcasting, but we will also talk a bit about the FSFE's local group in Zurich and how the Free Software is in Switzerland in general.
Because you are from Switzerland as obviously Zurich is part of Switzerland.
So how could you very briefly tell us how you got involved in the FSFE's local group in Zurich?
Yes.
I mean, that's a long time ago.
I think about 20 years ago I became interested in Free Software and wanted to join the community.
And at that time I discovered a local group which I think they don't exist anymore.
They were called Knus and Pensions in Zurich and I met up with the people there a few times.
And that's where I found about the Ubuntueros group which I joined.
And with this group, we organized three Ubukon conventions in Switzerland.
I think the first one was in winter tour and then in Zurich and the last one in Basel.
And a few years later we renamed the group Tuxeros because we didn't want to focus solely on Ubuntu.
So we widened up the space and then as fewer and fewer people joined Tuxeros,
the remaining members joined the FSFE local group Zurich.
How did you learn about the FSFE?
Ah, that's in.
I don't know when I learned about it.
What's just floating around there?
Yes and that's so many.
I mean that's decades ago.
I think that I learned about it as I was participating in all the groups.
I mentioned so Gnudi, Knus and Pensions and Tuxeros and Ubuntueros
and all the conventions we joined.
But I cannot tell you the exact date when I learned about the FSFE local group.
No, don't worry, I was not expecting that exact date.
I still know the moment when I learned about FSFE.
I was investing one of the Congresses, like the House Communication Congress.
You know the event, it's always between the years and it's very famous in Germany at least.
And I don't know, friends of mine, they started to learn this Free Software song
because they were like, oh, there's a Free Software song sing along and they played it on the flute
and they took me there and I was like, oh, this is the FSFE.
Nice to meet you.
To be honest, I never joined the Congress because it's between Christmas and New Year
and that's also family time.
And for me, it's most times it's vacation time.
So we grew for skiing and whatever.
Yeah, I can imagine there are two groups of people.
There are those who say, oh, Congress, this is a really, really bad time of the year.
And there are those who go there anyway.
I'm very curious to learn who's going there and who isn't because I find this very fascinating.
That's some value this time and some are like, I want to also spend this in the House family.
So I guess it's also a bit about how you got socialized there.
But this, I sang in August with a team, I think, of four people.
And yeah, I'm looking forward to this convention because it's the first time that we do a community meeting
with our podcast listeners.
Oh, wow. I'm very curious.
I'm very intrigued now to learn more about that and how it goes.
So you have to tell me afterwards, please.
Yes. So yeah, we will do a community meeting for the listeners of our podcast.
And we will have a desk there.
Maybe it's just close to the FSFE desk.
I don't know because we ask for this, but I think that's not an option that you can ask for.
But it would be nice.
Also, I won't be there, but I'm very much looking forward to learn how the community meet up will go.
So I'm very much looking forward to the article afterwards on GNU/Linux.ch.
GL just call it GL.
Okay, let's try to go with GL.
So with the FSFE local group now, you have also just love that we discovered how you joined this group.
And yes, you have also just recently participated in the I love Free Software day.
How was it and what happened there?
Yeah, actually, we have been celebrating I love Free Software day at the FSFE for a long time.
By the way, Bonnie, do you remember when it started in which year?
It must be 2010 as far as I remember.
Okay, so then I'm writing it for a long time.
Including in Zurich.
And in previous years, we usually met for just for dinner and invited other interested parties to join us.
And that changed last year.
In 25, when we organized talks, who's content matched the theme of the I love Free Software day.
And this year's theme was maintenance.
I think that's right.
Yeah, maintenance matters exactly.
Yeah, which is why we brought four talks on this topic to the stage.
And there were about external plus plus open BSD and Libres SL, new pipe and new taler.
And admittedly, the last talk was not about maintenance.
But Leo, so Leo Möller and I had experimented a lot with new taler beforehand and didn't want to withhold our findings from the community.
So we would have liked to see more visitors on the I love Free Software day and especially more diversity.
But we just had 15 men present at that day.
Oh, so it's quite a man-dominated event for you.
Yes, as often.
I just recently had this conversation with somebody else that I'm organizing in my free time a stumptage.
I don't really know how else to call it.
But it's like a meetup basically for Free Software people in the area and they're hardly any women joining as well.
So it's quite a problem that you're facing.
But not the topic of today's podcast.
Yeah, I mean, we are counting in the Zurich local group.
We are counting talking about changing the place where we meet because now we are in a typical hacker space.
I don't know if there is a typical hacker space.
But in Zurich, it's a very old building or you could call it also a ruin.
And it's not the nicest place.
So maybe this is also a reason why there are most of the times old men because it's not so attractive for women, I guess.
Maybe, maybe. I don't know.
I still hope that this will change in the future and that, yeah, I also guess it's about where you advertise.
So I just also joined a local Haecksen group here in Nürnberg.
So I guess if you like more joined those rooms and advertising those rooms, then you also get more people to join you.
But do you like the theme of the I Love Free Software Day events like the maintainers matter?
Yeah, as I just said, we had three real maintainers.
And it was very interesting to hear about their perspective.
And when they talked about their work.
And then Leo and me, we spoiled it with the last talk about.
I guess it was the very interesting.
Yes, of course, of course.
Everybody wants to pay with GNU Taler.
Unfortunately, that's only possible in Switzerland.
But the team behind GNU Taler, they are very keen on bringing it to whole Europe.
But this will take some time.
I don't know. Have you ever heard about GNU Taler?
I just was at a conference this weekend, like the previous few days.
And there they used GNU Taler to pay for the drinks.
But I just saw it there.
I was like, very intrigued to kind of like get into it.
But then I also was like, maybe next time.
Yeah, you cannot.
Nowadays, you need this with bank account.
They have to set up and everything.
You can download the wallet there.
And you can put money on the wallet with an automate there.
So you could like really actually try it.
Yes, without the real bank account attached it.
You just gave like bar money to them, like cash.
Yeah.
Okay.
So it was a bit different, I guess.
So yeah, that was why I was like, oh, I don't really want to try it now.
I first want to learn more about it.
Maybe I shouldn't want you for another episode about GNU Taler.
Yeah.
But apart from the I love Free Software day, what is the FSFP local group in Zurich app for?
Like, what do you do usually?
How is it going there?
So first of all, I would like to emphasize that the activities of the Free Software,
FSFP Zurich are transparent and public.
So we meet monthly alternating between in person and online meetings.
And the minutes are taken at our meetings and you can find the link in the show notes.
So we have carried out many projects over the years.
And I don't know all of them.
But the most important ones are learn like the pros.
So actually we never had an English name for this in German.
It's learn with the Profis.
So yeah, I don't know if learn like the pros is the best translation.
It's a project on Free Software in schools and universities.
We try to approach the students that are trying to become teachers.
So the target group was like younger people?
Yeah, the target group were teachers.
We were just studying this subject.
So we thought this was the best leverage.
Instead of going to hundreds of different schools and talk to pupils,
we thought it's a better idea to talk to the teachers which are at university.
And which are the multipliers then in the end?
Exactly.
How was this received by the teachers?
Not at all because we didn't manage to get into the universities.
Okay.
They had no interest at all.
Do you know why or was there a specific reason?
Because of the Corona pandemic.
Oh, okay, yeah.
Does I can't imagine?
Yeah, and another one which was last year was our end of 10 series.
So where we had three workshops to help people to switch to Linux.
And that was okay.
So we had, let's say, between 20 and 30 participants in these workshops.
And another one which I did together with Leo Merler was called Free Your Android.
A workshop on Google Free smartphones.
And this was repeated two or three times.
And I think we will continue with this.
Because people are always interested if you talk not just about computers and Linux,
but about a smartphone.
What you can do to free your smartphone.
So if you like offer a broader point of view and not just one topic.
Yeah, it's about what alternative app stores you can use.
What alternative custom ROMs you can use.
It's not the hardcore way so that you try to use a phone which completely runs with Free Software.
Because that's hard to find these days.
The easiest one is that you use after it as an alternative store to install applications.
And a second step to use a custom ROM.
And that's what we promote in this workshop.
And that's very well anticipated.
Ah, yeah, I can't imagine.
And then that happens some years ago.
We created the photo book which is a printed booklet in which people tell their stories about Free Software.
So with the pictures and then they provide some sentences how they came into the Free Software area.
They had the possibility to recommend some projects and what's their favorite app free applications that they used.
And this was also a nice thing, physical thing because it was a printed booklet.
Oh, that sounds so cute right?
Yeah, yeah.
And then on the political area we had a project called Freedom Vote.
And that was a survey in which candidates for the Swiss Parliament elections could express their stance on Free Software and free society.
You know this, how is this called? Val O'Mart?
Yes, yeah, yeah, it's Val O'Mart in Germany, yes.
What's the English translation for Val O'Mart?
I don't know.
I'm not quite sure if other countries even have a kind of thing like that.
So if you have an idea of what election O'Mart means then you have also an idea of what Freedom Vote means.
It's the same concept but dedicated to questions around Free Software and free society.
All right, this sounds like a lot of work.
Yeah, yeah.
And the last initiative that I would like to mention is FediGov.
So FediGov is the combination of Fediverse and government.
And this is an initiative that aims to get the government to use the Fediverse for public communication.
So as you know, I think also in Germany a lot of politicians, they are posting on X, Twitter.
And we tried to convince the government that this is not a good idea.
So we didn't tell them that they should avoid this but at least to have site channel or an alternative.
And therefore we recommended to use the Fediverse for public communication.
At least as an alternative to this proprietary and commercial channels.
I know your players that they are very well received when I hand them out at conference to others.
Yeah, I think this, we have several translations of this initiative.
I think there's something in Dutch and in Ukraine, English, French, Italian.
So I mean the website that we created for FediGov.
So you will find the link in the show notes.
I think it's FediGov.eu.
Yes.
It sounds like you have a lot of activities there.
How many people are part of this local group and how can you manage to do such a lot like such a variety in activities?
That's a good question.
I mean the activities that I talked about, they are spread over 10, 15 years.
So it's not that much if you think about the time in which we tried to accomplish this.
So that said, we have a mailing list for FSFE Switzerland.
And I'm not sure how many people are on this list.
I think around 100 people or so.
But if I look at our monthly meetings of the local group Zurich,
they are in average 5 to 10 people participating.
And you rock all of this.
Even if it's like spread over 10 or 15 years, I mean like it's a constant kind of work or effort you put into this.
And it's all about how to bring Free Software forward.
So I find this very fascinating.
And I find it's like a lot that you rock and a lot that you get up to.
So well done.
Yeah, to be honest.
I think it's a question of the dedication or the commitment or the engagement of single persons.
So normally you have one person who is really dedicated to an initiative.
And 90% of the work is on the shoulders of this single person.
Yeah.
So if you find somebody who is really interested and is willing and has the time to spend for an initiative,
that's usually the success factor.
And that's not a good message.
No, it's not at all because if this person falls away, like it's not there anymore, I don't know why.
Then it all breaks down.
So like the whole system just relies on this one person.
But anyway, I mean, besides all of these initiatives or projects or activities,
however you want to call it, we also appeared on many stages and given presentations on a wide range of free topics.
So currently we would like to focus more on young people again because we see a lack of information about Free Software in this area.
Maybe I don't know if this is a special thing in Switzerland because in Germany or in the rest of Europe,
you have your house called youth fighting for freedom.
You're packing for freedom.
You're not fighting.
Where you're especially, yeah, okay, both would.
So you especially address young people or younger people.
And then you have Matthias' book.
I don't understand.
And Zangerman.
So I don't know.
Maybe you have a better overview, Bonnie, how to do initiatives which are targeted at younger persons.
Now we have those two at the moment.
You're packing for freedom that just for teenagers between 14 to 18 years.
And Adam Zangerman is a book that everybody basically can read.
And it starts, I would say, from like five, six years.
Like if you're around this age, like shortly before you go to school or when you go to school,
through whatever kind of age, like I had, I do readings of the book.
And I also did a workshop with this book.
Like you had to write a card afterwards to Adam Zangerman you could choose.
And there were also a girl who was like 12 or even older.
So they are also people participating or teenagers participating in this reading there.
So this book speaks to a wide range of people.
But those are the two that we currently have.
How are you trying to engage young people?
As I said, so we tried to do the thing with the teachers at universities which didn't work out.
I guess because of the pandemic.
And I also wrote some letters to authorities which are responsible for the educational contents at schools.
This didn't work very well.
They said, no, we are not responsible.
You have to talk to the schools themselves.
And you can imagine, I mean, that doesn't work out if you have to talk to hundreds and thousands of individual schools.
So this is currently just an idea.
And we don't know exactly what's the best way to achieve this.
Okay, I'm very curious to learn how this will go.
And very curious to see how all of those activities with FSFE local group will continue
because I find this that you're like one of the most active groups that are in the Free Software local group area.
Like we do have a lot of active groups as well.
But yeah, you are, you are, I have sicked out to me over the years as well.
Because you keep doing things and you keep coming up with new ideas.
I find this very, very fascinating.
Thank you.
But you're not only part of the FSFE local group as we have already said, you're also part of GL.
And are you not also the founder of GL?
No, so again, GL is the abbreviation that we use just in this podcast episode for GNU Linux CR or GNU slash Linux dot CH.
You see, GL is much easier.
And it was not founded by me, but by Leo Muller again in May 2020.
And I don't know if you remember there was this block or this web page called pollinux.de.
No, I don't remember.
They provided Linux news over a period of almost 20 years.
And in 2020, they came to an end.
And we wanted to fill the gap.
And in the beginning, GL was a news block about Free Software.
And in summer 2020, I added the podcast or a podcast to offer another format to this news portal.
And then we soon realized that there was some duplication because there was another portal, which is called Linux news.de.
And they offered similar content.
So we had two German portals, which tried to fill the gap of the deprecated pollinux.de portal.
So GNU Linux.de and Linux news.de.
And we then established a partnership in which Linux news focused on news and GL presents magazine content.
And we are proud to collaborate with other providers and are delighted to be able to offer the largest range of Free Software
and free society content in the German speaking world.
And our podcast has also changed over time.
So at the beginning, it was a monthly news format with the length of two hours, one or two hours per episode.
And it was called GNU Linux news that was the name of the first podcast.
And with the introduction of Captain, it's Wednesday.
We now publish weekly episodes lasting about 30 minutes or longer.
And the podcast is interesting because it features a variety of speakers and offers a wide range of topics like talking with you.
Thank you.
But what is the aim of GNU Linux?
They are like GL and how can others participate or who is participating because you mentioned it's a bit of a magazine content.
Are you all writing this all by yourself or can others from outside also contribute?
Yeah, so I think that the selection of topics is very important to us.
So we break out of this nerdy niche by describing Free Software in the context of a free society.
So there can be no free society if people are not given the opportunity to participate.
And that is why GL is a project by the community for the community.
So this offering has been very safe.
So our articles have been written by over 220 authors.
And in the podcast, we have over 100 speakers that had the opportunity to explain the views.
So normally if you have a podcast or a blog or a web sign, so a magazine like a thing on the internet, then that's normally operated by a few people, especially if you think about a podcast.
I mean, you have the software freedom podcast.
And no, that's not a good example because you always have guests.
But if you think about other big podcasts like Lagerde Nation or methodically incorrect or things like this, you have always the same.
Like Linux and Linux.
But Linux and Lagerde also have.
Yeah.
Okay, so, but at, at, Ludinux, CERA or the captain, it's when says pot stay, it's part of the concept.
So that it's a place for the community to express themselves.
So and therefore, I'm always very happy to have people from the community talking with me in the podcast and having a lot of.
Volunteer authors writing articles for the magazine or for the.
Do you have to review them like each article that was submitted by one of the 220 authors that you have?
So there is a kind of an organization.
So we have a core team, which consists of six people.
Then we have a.
How is this called in English and editorial reduction?
Yeah, that.
So a news desk or with 30 people.
And then we have a matrix talk room with 850 people and the help team with 570 people.
So it's, it's a kind of a hierarchy.
And which is also a kind of self-regulated community, especially if we talk about moderation of social media content and also review of articles, which is normally done by the.
30 people in the editorial team.
Yeah, that's roughly how this is organized.
Wow.
Yeah.
And I also want to emphasize that GL is non commercial and transparent, especially when it comes to our finances.
Every year we publish a transparency report in January, in which we disclose our transactions.
And GL is as fine as by donations and sponsors and our income issues exclusively to cover our costs.
So no one on the teams that I mentioned receives a cent of our income.
So all this involved work is on a voluntary basis.
And that's very important for us to avoid any kind of corruption.
Or how is this called in influencership or something like this?
Yeah.
Wow.
This is like quite a lot of effort from volunteers there.
Do you also like do something together?
Do you have a team meeting at some point or how do you like keep the spirit there?
And how do you keep the people motivated?
So we are counting.
We have some interruptions in the recording.
But I guess you ask how we organize this and if we have team meetings.
Yes.
So in the core team, we just had made of six people.
We have monthly core calls where we make the decisions and develop new ideas.
Are most of the people from Switzerland or are they from all over the world?
No.
We have this normal ratio of one to ten.
So you know this one to ten ratio?
No, I don't.
If you talk about Germany and Austria or Germany and Switzerland, you have always a one to ten ratio.
Yes.
So that means ten people are from Germany and one person are either from Austria or from Switzerland.
Oh God.
Okay.
I have never heard of this.
Yeah, that's a very good rule of thumb.
And also if you look at the donations and contributions, it's always this factor of or this ratio of one to ten.
Okay.
I need to pay closer attention now to who is actually writing something to figure this out and to keep this up.
Because usually I find like, oh, this reads interesting.
I will read that so I don't pay that much attention to the author.
But I should probably do that more to figure out how this is going there.
So from my last questions, yeah, so that we wrap it all up.
I wanted to ask you also a bit more about digital policy in Switzerland.
So can you give me a bit of an overview of the current situation for Free Software?
Because I guess or I know that there's also some topics related to this floating around and also discussed on GNU Linux,
GNU Sashline of such CHGL.
So yeah, very curious to learn more about that.
Yeah, I'm sorry, Bonnie, but you are wrong because I'm not an expert on digital policy.
Of course, I keep an eye on developments, but I don't presume to make any relevant statements about them.
So there are other people who are much better at that, for example, Kierre from the Digital Society of Switzerland.
I don't know, do you know Eric? Kierre?
I have never met him in person, but I know the Kierre because they are also part of the House Communication Congress.
And another very well-informed person is Matthias Stormer from Paul DiGi.
And Paul DiGi is a kind of paleo mental group that spreads political parties.
And they are standing in for digital topics in the parliament.
So you will also find the links in the show notes.
Yeah, I know we will put them in there.
But from the latest news regarding digital policies in Switzerland, I still gather there is a lot happening in this regard.
And Free Software is becoming more of a topic.
Or how is your perception of this?
And do you see a movement towards more false products in public administrations there?
Yes, something is indeed happening in Switzerland, and not only in Switzerland, but also in Europe.
And you know it very well, Bonnie.
I think with the decline of former democracies, many authorities, organizations and companies have realized that they need to take digitalization into their own hands.
So in Switzerland, we have, let's say, a new association or initiative, which is called Netswerk SDS.
If I want to translate this, it's called Netswerk SDS in digital Switzerland.
That's an interest group that hundreds have rapidly joined.
So you have, you find their federal authorities, courts, large companies and civil society organizations, they get all gather information there.
And in addition to information and participatory exchange, this network offers three test installations of open desk.
Do you know what open desk is?
Yes, open desk.
So open desk is a free office, a platform from the German company, Sendis, which is funded by the government, by the German government.
And regarding this network SDS, Matthias Stürmer, which I mentioned before, is a founder of this network.
And I recently recorded an interview with him.
And as you can imagine, you will find the link in the show notes.
Yes. We keep repeating that.
Okay. So this sounds very interesting. Like, there is something happening there.
And yeah, I'm very much looking forward to follow up on this and to see what's happening.
One last question about Kira from Digital Gesellschaft. Is Kira also Eric Schönberger?
Exactly.
Yeah, Eric, I know.
You know, if you take his first name, Eric, and then you turn it around, what is it?
It's Kira. Yeah, that's all I know.
Because I was like, okay, this can't be a real name. So I was like, maybe, maybe it's the other way.
Now it all makes sense to me as well.
But my last question arrived because we already have quite a long time.
We have already talked quite a long time now.
So for my last question, is there something our listeners can do to support Free Software in Switzerland?
Yes, of course.
And I think this question should not be limited to Switzerland because it should apply to all democratic states
and in particular to their citizens to Free Software knows no national borders.
We are a global movement that advocates for Free Software and free society.
So everyone can and should get involved because this movement works for people in the best sense of the world.
Digital freedom affects everyone, so no matter which country they live in.
And digital freedom is essential for societies because it has an increasing impact on our lives every day.
So what can you do?
I recently read a scientific study that has investigated this.
See the link in the show notes.
This study concludes that connecting with like-minded people can have the strongest political average.
That's why I don't recommend social media bubbles but real life meetings.
So meet up in person and form kind of peaceful communities to make positive contributions to society.
So and if you're lucky, you might even make new friends along the way.
That's a perfect sentence. I will leave that as the closing sentence.
Thank you so much for the time. Thank you so much for being here.
And thank you so much for taking me through all the activities of the FSFE local group in Zurich,
of Gnu Linux, Sihar. Thank you so much. It was a real pleasure.
Yeah, it was very nice to talk with you again, Bonnie. I'm happy.
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Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much. Bye bye.
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