SFP#57: Policy and EU: Why everyone should care about procurement!
SFP#57: Policy and EU: Why everyone should care about procurement!
Back to the episode SFP#57
WEBVTT 00.000 --> 08.000 There are so many billions in procurement, and it's everyone is personally affected by this. 08.000 --> 09.000 Record. 09.000 --> 11.000 Yeah, it's on, it's on again. 11.000 --> 12.000 Perfect. 12.000 --> 14.000 All right, all right. 14.000 --> 17.000 Then let's get started. 31.000 --> 34.000 Hello and welcome to the Social Freedom Podcast. 34.000 --> 36.000 Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. 36.000 --> 40.000 Then without you and your support, this podcast would not be possible. 40.000 --> 44.000 This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 44.000 --> 49.000 We are a charity that works on empowering users to control technology. 49.000 --> 53.000 And you may never guess who is my guest for today. 53.000 --> 57.000 My guest for today is Alexander Sanda from the FSFE. 58.000 --> 01:00.000 Alex, how are you? 01:00.000 --> 01:03.000 It's so nice to have you back. 01:03.000 --> 01:05.000 Yeah, I'm fine. 01:05.000 --> 01:14.000 And I'm also more than happy to be back here and to have a chat with you on the latest political topics. 01:14.000 --> 01:17.000 I'm really happy to be back here. 01:17.000 --> 01:18.000 That's very nice. 01:18.000 --> 01:21.000 I'm really, really happy to have you back here as well. 01:21.000 --> 01:22.000 That's very cool. 01:22.000 --> 01:25.000 How are you, how's life treating you? 01:25.000 --> 01:30.000 Yeah, so I mean, I spent a couple of months with a newborn, which was pretty nice. 01:30.000 --> 01:37.000 And I'm also continuing this past with him, but in the meantime, things were also moving forward. 01:37.000 --> 01:43.000 And now I'm kind of like checking my backlog, but also at the same time looking at the things ahead of us. 01:43.000 --> 01:50.000 And there is one topic that jumped out of the box, which is very important to me, 01:50.000 --> 01:55.000 but also to the FSFE and to be honest, every European citizen. 01:55.000 --> 01:59.000 And that is why we want to discuss this topic today. 01:59.000 --> 02:04.000 This is what I found in one of my rounds during the woods with my son. 02:04.000 --> 02:09.000 And that's why I'm back here now. 02:09.000 --> 02:12.000 About procurement today. 02:12.000 --> 02:15.000 About procurement, yeah. 02:15.000 --> 02:18.000 A very dry topic. 02:18.000 --> 02:24.000 Well, I mean, in the first place, it may sound a bit dry. 02:24.000 --> 02:28.000 But if you look at our Public Money? Public Code! campaign, for example, 02:28.000 --> 02:33.000 then you will notice that this is one of our key messages in the FSFE: that public money, 02:33.000 --> 02:39.000 if it is spent on software, then we demand that the code should be available as Free Software. 02:39.000 --> 02:46.000 And this is basically the key field, if you like, where one could demand such a thing. 02:46.000 --> 02:50.000 And that's why the procurement reform is of such interest for us. 02:50.000 --> 02:53.000 And we also took part in the consultation process. 02:53.000 --> 02:56.000 This took place last year already. 02:56.000 --> 03:01.000 And we have been in contact with the European Commission, but also at national level 03:01.000 --> 03:03.000 with decision-makers on this topic. 03:03.000 --> 03:09.000 And that's why it's of the utmost importance for us to talk about procurement 03:09.000 --> 03:15.000 and how we can bring in the principle of Free Software first into such files. 03:15.000 --> 03:22.000 Or at least move it before we move it as close as possible to this principle. 03:22.000 --> 03:25.000 So to close this end. 03:25.000 --> 03:34.000 But before we dive into all of that, can we take our listeners to the story of what are we talking about? 03:34.000 --> 03:40.000 So there's a procurement act currently discussed in the European Parliament. 03:41.000 --> 03:43.000 And what's happening there? 03:43.000 --> 03:44.000 What is the state? 03:44.000 --> 03:46.000 How did this all happen? 03:46.000 --> 03:48.000 Give us some history and some background. 03:48.000 --> 03:49.000 Absolutely. 03:49.000 --> 03:52.000 So we are talking about a European Union file. 03:52.000 --> 04:00.000 So the European Commission was tasked to renew the procurement rules for Europe. 04:00.000 --> 04:07.000 At the moment, we have like a couple of regulations and a lot of paperwork around 04:07.000 --> 04:10.000 how procurement should happen in Europe. 04:10.000 --> 04:14.000 And when we talk about procurement, we talk about like pretty much everything 04:14.000 --> 04:16.000 a public administration needs. 04:16.000 --> 04:21.000 This could be chairs for a room where the mayor sits. 04:21.000 --> 04:23.000 This could be paintings. 04:23.000 --> 04:25.000 This could be an airport scanner. 04:25.000 --> 04:27.000 Or this could be software, right? 04:27.000 --> 04:34.000 And so we basically talk about like really a huge file which covers everything 04:34.000 --> 04:37.000 a public administration needs. 04:37.000 --> 04:39.000 And we talk about this European-wide process. 04:39.000 --> 04:45.000 So and since this is a regulation, it will directly apply to every member state in the European Union. 04:45.000 --> 04:52.000 What they try to do is to basically bring everything into this one regulation in this one file. 04:52.000 --> 05:00.000 And streamline everything and then have everything in one place where procurement processes are regulated for Europe. 05:00.000 --> 05:04.000 So that's basically the idea of the European Commission. 05:04.000 --> 05:09.000 And they have been going through processes beforehand that are pretty common. 05:09.000 --> 05:12.000 They had consultation processes. 05:12.000 --> 05:14.000 They had debates around it. 05:14.000 --> 05:16.000 We took part in this. 05:16.000 --> 05:20.000 You can find our consultation feedback, for example, on the website of the European Commission, 05:20.000 --> 05:23.000 but also on fsfe.org, for sure. 05:23.000 --> 05:32.000 And now a few days ago, the European Commission presented their proposal for a regulation to the member states, 05:32.000 --> 05:35.000 the Council and the Parliament. 05:35.000 --> 05:38.000 And basically the debate is about to start now. 05:38.000 --> 05:40.000 So we have a proposal. 05:40.000 --> 05:41.000 We have a text now. 05:41.000 --> 05:52.000 And now member states in the European Union, but also the European Parliament are going to read it to decide on processes to decide on who is going 05:52.000 --> 05:59.000 to have an opinion on this, who is going to have a vote on this, who can take part in the process. 05:59.000 --> 06:02.000 So this is basically where we are at the moment. 06:02.000 --> 06:10.000 So it's pushed to the Parliament, which means there was a very, very first reading in the committee in the European Parliament, 06:10.000 --> 06:17.000 the IMCO Committee, where the European Commission presented the file towards the members of the Parliament. 06:17.000 --> 06:26.000 They still don't know yet who is going to be the rapporteur, who is going to be the shadow rapporteur, which committees are going to debate on this. The same is true for the Council. 06:26.000 --> 06:33.000 So everyone is just reading the document at the moment, making up their minds, coming up with their first positions. 06:33.000 --> 06:37.000 But it's in a very, very early stage. 06:37.000 --> 06:46.000 What I would bet is that what we can see in the proposal of the European Commission, nearly nothing will stay like it was proposed. 06:46.000 --> 06:54.000 Everything is under discussion and everything will be changed. There will be major changes. There will be small changes. 06:54.000 --> 07:06.000 But I'm pretty sure that when we start talking about what the Commission proposed, then it's also a good idea to not go into the nitty-gritty of the text because many of the ideas will be changed. 07:06.000 --> 07:17.000 And also at the same time, I do believe it's more important to talk about like what's the overall idea, the overall strategy of the European Commission, where do they want to go? 07:17.000 --> 07:23.000 And how likely is it that the Council, so the member states, and the European Parliament will follow this idea. 07:23.000 --> 07:29.000 And what does it mean for our niche topic of software, right? 07:29.000 --> 07:39.000 So we said we talk about everything governments, public administrations procure, software plays a role, but it's not the one and only role. 07:39.000 --> 07:54.000 And to be honest, it's also kind of like a new role. But yeah, as soon as we go a bit more into the file, we can also see that we already have been kind of like successful with our input, which we have provided in the process beforehand. 07:54.000 --> 08:03.000 We also had direct meetings with people from the Commission who drafted the text in order to make sure that the very first draft at least goes a bit in our direction. 08:03.000 --> 08:19.000 And so this is what we will discuss here in the podcast today, I think is like what's in the text and what will happen in the next like let's say two or three years until we have a signature under the text and a final agreement and can start implementing. 08:19.000 --> 08:27.000 What's in there, what means that we have to wait another two or three years until we see the rules take it down to our administrations. 08:27.000 --> 08:33.000 Perfect. Just what I wanted to ask you is like, do you have a rough timeframe for us? 08:33.000 --> 08:44.000 Yeah, so that's basically it. So I mean, the next election in Europe is 2029, I think, and until that time, I do believe Council and European Parliament will have a final text. 08:44.000 --> 09:07.000 So we have more or less roughly, I'd say two years from now on until they have a final text. Trilogues go on then a signature and then I'd say in February, March 2029, we will have a final text and then they start implementing this and normally it's also there for around like two years until the text is implemented. 09:07.000 --> 09:17.000 So let's say in 2031 this will be the time when we can feel it on the ground. 09:17.000 --> 09:26.000 So it's a bit far ahead, right, but what are we actually talking about? So as you already mentioned procurement is like everything. 09:26.000 --> 09:33.000 So basically that is in public infrastructure or public bodies. So it can. 09:33.000 --> 09:39.000 Yeah, what is the procurement act actually affecting and what's happening there? 09:39.000 --> 09:41.000 So who? 09:41.000 --> 09:46.000 Yeah, so and that's the same. So it covers everything for everyone, right? 09:46.000 --> 09:59.000 So let's look at the text. So I mean, there are certain thresholds in it, for example, European-wide procurement procedures start at 250,000 euros. 09:59.000 --> 10:07.000 So as soon as you hit 250K or above, then you have to run through these procurement procedures. 10:07.000 --> 10:15.000 You have to publicly announce that you are looking for a specific thing, a chair, an airport scanner, 10:15.000 --> 10:19.000 a kindergarten. 10:19.000 --> 10:25.000 A kindergarten, right? So whatever a public administration needs, I don't know, water supplies, whatever. 10:25.000 --> 10:33.000 So everything that comes to your mind, which is basically provided by a public administration in front of your eyes when you leave your house, right? 10:33.000 --> 10:36.000 So this is then basically what we are looking for. 10:36.000 --> 10:42.000 And the rules are basically for people that sit in your administration and have to do this procurement process, right? 10:42.000 --> 10:52.000 So that say, like, I don't know, I need a new painting for my city hall and who's going to do this since it's a very big building. 10:52.000 --> 10:57.000 And it's above 250K to get the painting. So then you have to procure it, right? 10:57.000 --> 11:03.000 So and then you have to follow some rules. And until now it was basically the cheapest bid wins. 11:03.000 --> 11:09.000 So it's a very easy principle. You go to the market and say, ah, that's the cheapest one. I take this. 11:09.000 --> 11:17.000 But maybe all of us have figured out that there's also another reasoning next to the cheapest price and that's quality. 11:17.000 --> 11:27.000 And this is basically the biggest change, which is going to be introduced is that you should not only look for the price, but also for quality. 11:27.000 --> 11:40.000 And basically the question is what is quality and how do you measure quality and how do you make sure you procure quality for a good price. 11:40.000 --> 11:53.000 And then in particular during the last years, they also figured out that there is more than just a price and quality because there might be something like resilience. 11:53.000 --> 12:02.000 There might be something like innovation. There might be something like it's taxpayers' money. Why should it be spent outside Europe? 12:02.000 --> 12:14.000 So don't we want to have the money just like within Europe. So if we buy with taxpayers' money, products, then they should be made in Europe, for example. 12:14.000 --> 12:27.000 These have been discussions and all of these ideas are now kind of like in this regulation and are going to be reflected in the process at the same time as there's a huge difference. 12:27.000 --> 12:35.000 If you buy a chair or if you buy, I don't know, something which is very important for security or safety, right? 12:35.000 --> 12:47.000 So then you might have other thresholds or other criteria than if you buy simple things that you can get from a normal store. 12:47.000 --> 12:58.000 So to say right or you want to procure something which is innovative where there is not even a product on the market, but you need a solution to a problem. 12:58.000 --> 13:04.000 How do you procure a solution to a problem if there is not a solution on the market already. 13:04.000 --> 13:13.000 How do you get there then for example, and this is in particular interesting if you look for software. So you have a problem. 13:13.000 --> 13:24.000 So you want to manage something in your public administration and you figure out that you only can buy products that push you into vendor lock-in, for example. 13:24.000 --> 13:42.000 And these products are not even coming from Europe and they are proprietary and they force you to follow the products' innovative ideas that you might don't even need or that might go in a completely wrong direction. 13:42.000 --> 13:54.000 But it's the only solution on the market, which is a bit later, and that's why it is procured and this is in particular something which we see very, very often if you look at software, right. 13:54.000 --> 14:10.000 So we follow the ideas of big tech companies and so to say nobody was ever getting fired for buying Microsoft and this is something which should worry us because why aren't you getting fired for buying this. 14:10.000 --> 14:33.000 I mean, I'm not sure if you ever use it so but there are some hiccups let's say it like this right so and there might be or I'm pretty sure there are already better solutions out there, but I'm more than convinced that if we invest this money in solutions that we really need. 14:33.000 --> 14:56.000 Tailored to our needs, tailored to the needs of the administration, then you will also have a different market so but if you only buy what's already out there and buy it over and over and over and over again, then there won't be change right so you will stick to the old-fashioned product which is like again pushing you into this vendor lock-in over and over again. 14:56.000 --> 15:11.000 And at the same time you don't have interoperability you can't be connected to your citizens that don't procure the same thing or buying the same thing and we know all the downsides of these proprietary tools right so. 15:11.000 --> 15:25.000 And here we need new processes in order to make sure administrations will get what they are looking for that they get solutions tailored to their needs right and not what's already on the market. 15:25.000 --> 15:35.000 And so this is what what I really need is missing but it gives you something else what I don't need and I have to pay the same price for this even if it's not what I'm looking for. 15:35.000 --> 15:54.000 So the question is how do you change the process for a chair which is pretty simple right so I need to sit there but at the same time the same rules that are being published by the Commission now should also apply for this situation I was talking about software right so you want to buy a chair with this and you all. 15:54.000 --> 16:12.000 There is this and you also want with the same rules more or less you need to buy this innovative new solution that's not even on the market so how do you describe a chair if it hasn't been invented yet and how do you procure it so. 16:12.000 --> 16:32.000 I do have a question there yeah yeah why do you think that public administrations should want to have something tailored to their needs this is like one of the arguments that we always push up front but as we have been discussing in the episodes before there are many many reasons to get. 16:32.000 --> 16:43.000 Free Software obviously so I'm not asking out of a bad intention to just want to get this out straight so why is this something that we focus on. 16:43.000 --> 17:01.000 Public administrations handle a lot of things that affect citizens and they should do it in the best way for citizens so it's not out there to please any company or to help someone it's only there for citizens so public administrations are here for us they are here to do. 17:01.000 --> 17:16.000 What we need we need a new passport so they should give us a new passport and the data should be safe and we want a nice and shiny passport which lasts the time until we need it right so and it shouldn't fall apart. 17:16.000 --> 17:37.000 The same is true if we are on the street so the street should be renewed and then we should be able to drive on the street without running into car accidents right so it should be tailored to our needs as citizens that I can drive on the street this is what procurement is right so we talk about streets we talk about infrastructure and and. 17:37.000 --> 17:43.000 And the thing is part of this infrastructure is software and everything. 17:43.000 --> 17:59.000 All of this infrastructure is here to serve us and at the same time it's also financed by us so it's taxpayers' money that they use in order to buy something which is then out there for us so it should be. 17:59.000 --> 18:28.000 Absolutely I love how you outlined that and how much emphasis it's there for us it's observing the citizens absolutely absolutely true but I think we often kind of forget in the discussions that actually what are we talking about so yes we are talking about procuring chairs yes we are talking about the kindergarten we're talking about other different. 18:28.000 --> 18:48.000 Public bodies all of them out there but all of them are actually building up our daily life our infrastructure that we as citizens rely on and that we pay for exactly I gladly pay for that to be honest and I'm one of those people. 18:48.000 --> 18:54.000 But then we want to have good results right so if I pay for it I want it to serve everyone not just one company. 18:54.000 --> 19:17.000 Yeah precisely so so and back to the procurement act the fact what is in the text actually so today today 60 to 80% of procurement happens best price I buy it right so and this is this is something where I do believe nearly everyone agrees on that this is not I mean you can go to the one-euro shop. 19:17.000 --> 19:38.000 And the figure out that this is not a good idea right so I mean really so but that's a thing right so that maybe maybe 20 years ago that that was a good idea to follow this principle but today it's not and that's why we need to renew this and also at the same time we need to make procurement easier for civil servants. 19:38.000 --> 20:07.000 So we have many rules you have to read here you have to read over there and there are I don't know I think they they streamline like 20 different files into this new regulation so first thing what they do is simplification so make it make it more understandable for for the people who procure things that you have this one document you read this one document and then you more or less know about the rules right so it's not like I read this document. 20:07.000 --> 20:34.000 I read this document in this document tells you are you also have to read this document in the other document tells you are if you're in a certain situation that you are here but you also have to read this document right so and that's very important it's like remove bureaucracy out of the thing and make it accessible for public servants to make their way through the jungle and understand how procurement can be done easily and for the benefit of citizens so first thing simplification. 20:34.000 --> 20:44.000 I do believe that's something which is understandable that's also something more or less I'd say everyone agrees on that this is a step in the right direction is to. 20:44.000 --> 21:03.000 Absolutely it should not be the search for the perfect 8:38 precisely right so and and and that's the first thing and then at the same time move away from this lowest-price idea and add more criteria and then also add a bit more of like so the world has changed I'd say and. 21:03.000 --> 21:26.000 And this is also something which becomes more and more clear in the opinion we have new partners old partners change their habits how much can we rely how much can we trust what is this international market looking like for us in order to discuss the idea again we procure for citizens and it should be there for the next. 21:26.000 --> 21:55.000 Years decades right so what you procure is nothing which you change like every day so that's why you need to think a bit ahead of how the world will look like in ten twenty thirty years and what does it mean for our procurement today and we have a European market we have European companies so what what do we do in this situation so and what they came up with was this they said like look we have to look for security resilience quality. 21:55.000 --> 22:22.000 Social implications what's happening with our green environment what's about innovation and and what's what what is about Europe European preference so I mean if it's taxpayers' money then products should be from Europe so these are ideas that are convincing in the first place so that it's understandable to have this idea. 22:22.000 --> 22:42.000 But what does it mean for us what does it mean for software so let's stick to the idea of Buy European I mean you could say I don't want to buy from the US or China anymore and this is how we kick out Huawei and Microsoft now everything will be European digital technology. 22:42.000 --> 23:11.000 So first question is do we have the chips so do we have the AI do we have the operating systems do we have the office tools yeah depends let's say it like this so okay but you want to get there so you want to have the chips you want to have the AI you want to have this software so it's a good idea to use procurement as a tool. 23:12.000 --> 23:39.000 To get closer to closing the gaps in international markets so you can say there are markets where we are not market leaders but we can use procurement in order to get there and the products will be better for us because they are more tailored to our needs they follow data protection rules they follow our own ideas of supply chains. 23:39.000 --> 24:02.000 They follow social standards like workers' rights and so on and so on right so it's a good idea to say like look let's use the money we have in order to invest as much as possible into something which is following our ideas our values and obviously the best idea is to invest in you. 24:02.000 --> 24:29.000 What's going to happen if they're going to be sold tomorrow to China to the US to whoever so I mean the question is like this Buy European idea what does it really mean or imagine there is someone in Ireland or in Luxembourg selling you something which is basically coming from the US. 24:29.000 --> 24:58.000 Is this then a Buy European thing and I do believe that there is way more than just these slogans or these terms and it needs to be modified in the legislative process which is ahead of us in order to make sure that it's not about Buy European it's about buying sovereignty and in particular when we talk about software then the easiest and most obvious solution is to own. 24:59.000 --> 25:28.000 And be able to modify it to be able to tailor it to your needs right so you have the four freedoms to study share and improve then it doesn't matter if it's coming from Europe or somewhere else because you have the sovereignty to make sure that the software remains in your hands that you can control it that you can also make sure whatever happens to the company. 25:28.000 --> 25:47.000 You are at least in a position to keep it running even if the company is sold if they go bankrupt if whatever happens to them and this is a much more important criterion than just saying Buy European and then tomorrow this company is not even European anymore because it's sold. 25:47.000 --> 26:16.000 So and also because of the complexity as you already put it the complex procurement path that software goes through as do other hardware products so it's not like we can't say oh this is very easy to solve and this can all be manufactured in Europe and also software has a more global aspect as well so it's yeah. 26:17.000 --> 26:20.000 Or we build a Great Firewall. 26:20.000 --> 26:28.000 Precisely so what is that is there any code out there which is where you can say this is coming from this country. 26:28.000 --> 26:45.000 I'd say it's impossible right but what the European Union or what the European Commission came up with is a fix-all solution and now and I can understand where they're coming from and I can understand why they came up with these slogans with these kinds of ideas. 26:45.000 --> 27:14.000 And in general I'd also say up to the level of this European preference or Buy European or Made in Europe or however you want to label it it makes sense right so to say look it should follow our ideas of a healthy planet it should follow our ideas of how we treat our workers and you shouldn't be able to subcontract until you have somebody doing the work for you who is working without any workers' rights so this shouldn't happen with taxpayers' money also it should contribute to our security should contribute to our resilience. 27:14.000 --> 27:39.000 So these ideas are in general good and it's in general good to follow these ideas and now it's going to be discussed in a way that I'd say everyone is coming up with their interests with their niche interests. 27:39.000 --> 28:04.000 This is also true for us right so we are also there we will also be there in the process and tell them look when we talk about software all of your criteria are pretty good but skip the European preference thingy please and instead make sure that you have something which is along the four freedoms because then all the other criteria you came up with are fulfilled. 28:04.000 --> 28:30.000 And it doesn't matter too much if it's really a European company that came up with this or wherever this particular company is based because ultimately you want to have the possibility to have the software in your hands and not a European seller that gives you sorry to say the same thing you had before just another name. 28:31.000 --> 28:54.000 So and but really so this is what we are looking for this is our aim this is our goal here in the process and then next to it another huge discussion will be around what are the thresholds like is this really 250K or are there different thresholds how mandatory are these criteria. 28:54.000 --> 29:15.000 So the Commission said like it's basically you can pick these criteria depending on what you are really looking for then there are MEPs members of the Parliament and even member states that say these criteria need to be mandatory other say oh no no no this shouldn't be mandatory this should be 29:15.000 --> 29:44.000 that we have procurement people in our local administration they know pretty much the best what they want to procure they don't need rules at all that's how it is but so I mean you have positions from this to this and telling you everything needs to be mandatory to like need not telling our local administration people they know best what to procure they have done it in the past and they know for the future what's best. 29:44.000 --> 30:11.000 So and this is basically the discussion you know it's really a massively huge file with massive interests from administration itself obviously because they have to follow the rules but also from industry from civil society from everyone who shows up in this process and tells you this is interesting but I have this specific problem here and this needs to be regulated. 30:11.000 --> 30:31.000 So and I do believe this will be one of the main challenges is to make sure that it's not an empty file in the end so that you say like look you have now 2000 pages with special rulings on everything everything and everything but nothing is mandatory. 30:31.000 --> 31:00.000 So wow that can be a result can be a result but at the same time a result can be look friends here here and this moment I mean if you procure I don't know this chair and this chair survived the last 40 years. 31:00.000 --> 31:29.000 For the years then procure it again fair enough but if you procure something which is at the core of your state infrastructure it's mandatory to look if this is resilient if this is in your hands afterwards if this is in your control right so maybe we can say look for that there are specific sectors there are specific procurements where you could say we give you a bit more flexibility a bit more freedom but there are other parts. 31:30.000 --> 31:55.000 There we say look now here this is mandatory and we have to look out that we have control because this is taxpayers' money and they need to be sure that this is secure or this is resilient or whatever right so and and this will be the fight and now we talked about a lot about general ideas but what's with Free Software now and I wanted to ask. 31:55.000 --> 32:06.000 Let me have a question for you. 32:07.000 --> 32:10.000 This is a short break for our own cause. 32:10.000 --> 32:18.000 Thank you for listening to the Software Freedom Podcast. Working for software freedom and producing podcasts costs money. 32:18.000 --> 32:28.000 Please consider supporting us with a donation on fsfe.org/donate and in the show notes. 32:28.000 --> 32:42.000 You mentioned that we discussed with the Commission before this paper was now going around and that actually something was mentioned in it before. 32:42.000 --> 32:52.000 And what's happening there and also how is the standpoint of Free Software in this procurement act exactly so 32:54.000 --> 33:10.000 First again big file normally not normally if you if you go through it there are not that many topics that are addressed straightforward so this it's it's very very broad it's very vague right so it's trying to cover everything so 33:10.000 --> 33:27.000 One could not expect that Free Software plays a role in this file because this is already very specific and very niche one could say if you go through the document you can say I can read the Four Freedoms in it right so we want to use study share and improve we want to have control 33:27.000 --> 33:56.000 control checkbox you need to put your Free Software afterwards but I said we took part in consultation processes we had direct meetings with the DG and the cabinet of the DG writing this text before they came up as the proposal telling them about our ideas explaining them why we do believe that this Free Software bit is not that niche how it may sound to them and why 33:57.000 --> 34:22.000 it plays such an important role not only for us but why we do believe it's of such importance for the procurement file and thus by citizens across Europe and what was pretty clear in these meetings already is that they won't come up with a Public Money, Public Code saying in article one and then stop there right so 34:22.000 --> 34:51.000 but at the same time I always had the feeling that they understand our point that they can follow our ideas to a certain extent again Public Money, Public Code might be a bit strong for them in particular to like take a term of an NGO and put it into such an important file so they might come up as new words for it or might water down this straightforward claim we have in a way that it's for example not mandatory 34:51.000 --> 35:20.000 to follow this right but what the Commission did is in the box of innovation there they said that open source this is the wording which you obviously use in these European files should play a role and that you should consider the use of open source technologies or open source bits based on blue there they are watering down it a bit 35:28.000 --> 35:43.000 but remember when we talked about the Cyber Resilience Act and in the beginning I told you look the Commission came up with something that they said we need an exemption for Free Software in the Cyber Resilience Act it was not good to be honest it was pretty 35:43.000 --> 35:44.000 but at the same time I always said look the Commission gave us an opportunity to modify this text it's a proposal it's not the final text now it's going in the hands of the Parliament it's going in the hands of the Council and this is basically where we normally are being around in particular as an NGO this is the place where where we have contacts to where we can have debates where we can take part in this and and bring out the 36:13.000 --> 36:28.000 ideas so what happened is the European Commission understood that open source plays a role in procurement and they put it in the text they said you have to consider open source when you talk about innovation 36:28.000 --> 36:38.000 it's pretty good right that that's it gives us a lot of room in order to modify it in order to make it 36:38.000 --> 36:49.000 more mandatory to make it even mandatory at all to maybe even convince people that this is also true for all the other parts you are talking about 36:49.000 --> 37:16.000 besides the European prevalence thing and again if you if you look at the text there are not that many other industries there are not that many other topics that are specifically named right so this has to affect like it does affect like a lot of different areas as we already pointed out this quite a lot under this procurement act actually 37:16.000 --> 37:35.000 precisely so and even if you would take the text as it is as of today I do believe that you can go to your public administration and create at least the pressure and say have you considered the use of open source as the law says 37:35.000 --> 38:01.000 and then you can ask them why why have you and what's the result or why haven't you so you are not following the law so and I mean but this is something right yeah so in 2020 so you want right so this is then then we can go with it but not even then because then they first have to procure start the procurement process then they have to procure and then you can ask so let's say 38:01.000 --> 38:30.960 30 33 so something like this right so but anyhow so okay so what what I would say about the text is it's it's a proposal it's a broad proposal we have Free Software in it already it's not sufficient it's not as much as we wanted but it's already in and this is in particular compare it to other industries so you won't read anything about the bakery you won't read anything about the kindergarten you won't read 38:30.960 --> 38:49.960 anything about the chair you won't read anything about the airport scanner or not about the chair yeah so every example I gave you in the first place that are like obvious I'd say I'm not in the proposal but what's in the proposal is that there is this one sentence or these two articles it's two articles already 38:49.960 --> 39:18.960 which point to the use of open source and that it's a good idea to do this so now we need to make sure that it's not just in two articles but that it's in at least five or six articles or in a way put into this regulation that everyone understands that if I go there and need software then software means open source means Free Software so this is what we want as an outcome here 39:18.960 --> 39:35.960 what we will fight for in the next two years and what we already have it makes me more than happy so I'm convinced that we can modify the text in a way that we will have more than what's in there today 39:35.960 --> 39:47.960 in particular if you had us business so this is something for you volunteers out there for you Free Software lovers out there to convince your country that they need to come up with good amendments 39:47.960 --> 40:01.960 for Free Software in this directive and that they should fight for keeping what's already in there but also in order to enlarge it to make it better and to have a bright and shiny future for Free Software procurement right? 40:01.960 --> 40:07.960 I guess you're really really happy that this is actually already in the text right? 40:07.960 --> 40:19.960 precisely so I mean again it's I do I do compare it to the Cyber Resilience Act many software people haven't been happy when they read it in the first place because they said it's shitty 40:19.960 --> 40:35.960 I said it's it might be shitty I don't know but it's an opportunity since it's already in and it's always way easier to modify a text than to bring something completely new in right so 40:35.960 --> 40:46.960 since we already have a mention of Free Software twice in two articles already the first five is right? 40:46.960 --> 40:55.960 right so and and the first thing is to like keep it so and it's very easier to keep something in the text than to bring something new into the text 40:55.960 --> 41:03.960 and if you make the step to keep it then you can do the next step and modify it so the very first step to bring something new in 41:03.960 --> 41:15.960 yeah this work can be skipped because it's already there so we can have a relaxed start since we have been very active since we have been very successful in the first place to bring something in 41:15.960 --> 41:19.960 I'm very curious to see what will be happening in the future to be honest 41:19.960 --> 41:29.960 I mean it's two years so I'm very curious to see what we will be doing in the next two years about all of this procurement act 41:29.960 --> 41:45.960 and so but but but again so everything which is like timeline and outcome this is this is all my gut feeling right so it could be it everything could be completely different but from like my experience from from from the last files and what I've seen so it 41:45.960 --> 41:57.960 I bet a lot that this file will be finished in this term 2021 so until then it will be we will have a final text I bet a lot on this however 41:57.960 --> 42:07.960 you tomorrow the government breaks the Commission I don't know also learn from the line steps down obviously can happen sure sure sure 42:07.960 --> 42:14.960 I'm not taking you up on this it's not about yet you do I'm not taking a bet with you on that so don't worry 42:14.960 --> 42:22.960 more about like having a feeling so that this will be sticking around for the next at least the next few months we will be discussing this 42:22.960 --> 42:32.960 from time to time and I'm very much looking forward to see like how the how the outcome is going to change there but will be happening next like what's the next step 42:32.960 --> 42:40.960 so that the next very important step for us is that the Parliament will decide on who is going to work on this file 42:40.960 --> 42:52.960 so this means first which committees so the Parliament is not just like the picture you see of like this big plenary right where everyone sits there and raises their hand or pushes buttons in order to vote 42:52.960 --> 42:58.960 though they are organized in committees and these committees are specialized on specific things 42:58.960 --> 43:06.960 first they decide on which committees will work on this and then they will decide which persons so which MEPs which Members of the European Parliament 43:06.960 --> 43:16.960 in these committees will work on those files and then they will write draft reports so they will so these these responsible people 43:16.960 --> 43:28.960 the rapporteurs and they are called rapporteurs they will write a draft report and say yeah from my opinion as the committee for workers' rights I do believe we should modify the clause on workers' rights 43:28.960 --> 43:40.960 the committee on internal security tells you are there is a super interesting we don't care for your chairs we don't care for your streets but when we talk about internal security 43:40.960 --> 43:46.960 then it needs to be mandatory for example right so this is what they will amend and then you have a leading committee 43:46.960 --> 43:52.960 this is the IMCO committee and the Committee on the Internal Market and Consumer Protection 43:52.960 --> 44:01.960 and this committee will have basically streamlined all these ideas and come up with a final report which will then be pushed to the plenary 44:01.960 --> 44:04.960 the plenary will vote on this and then we have a Parliament position 44:04.960 --> 44:12.960 at the same time while they are doing this and this again lasts for let's say two years Member States will do the same thing 44:12.960 --> 44:22.960 so every Member State Germany Spain France Italy whomever they sit there make up their minds and say for Germany it's important that we I don't know 44:22.960 --> 44:31.960 say nothing should be mandatory because our procurement people are the best in the world and that's why nothing needs to be mandatory 44:31.960 --> 44:37.960 while the people in Spain say everything needs to be mandatory we don't trust the Germans 44:37.960 --> 44:47.960 so whatever right so this is basically how it works 44:47.960 --> 44:54.960 so and and and they do the same thing Parliament does they sing Council does they sing and then they come together in this 44:54.960 --> 45:00.960 so-called trilogue and then they say what do you Member States have for ideas what do you Parliament have for ideas 45:00.960 --> 45:04.960 and then they negotiate have a final text and 45:04.960 --> 45:10.960 so but the comments like the next next first step for us is to wait and see who will be the the 45:10.960 --> 45:22.960 the rapporteurs that will be covering the text right yeah wait is maybe the wrong word but we we so let's put it like this 45:22.960 --> 45:32.960 so there will be official moments when all of these people will be announced we already know for most of them who will be announced 45:32.960 --> 45:40.960 we already made contact with these people in order to be quick and early and be like able to 45:40.960 --> 45:46.960 present our position as early as possible and to have a relationship with these people as early as possible 45:46.960 --> 45:53.960 so waiting so do not be late to the party exactly right so this might be fun for 45:53.960 --> 45:55.960 private parties but in politics you won't be 45:55.960 --> 45:57.960 you 46:31.960 --> 46:33.960 talking to you 46:33.960 --> 46:47.960 not only talking to you but also to you dear listeners of this podcast and I hope you have as much fun as we do have at the 46:47.960 --> 46:53.960 but we are more than active than ever and try to make contacts try to understand where groups 46:53.960 --> 46:59.960 so basically parties might want to move about their red lines and trying to understand which people will be in the 46:59.960 --> 47:03.960 and trying to understand which people will be in the process but that person the preferences are 47:03.960 --> 47:09.960 same as same as to for at least the big Member States to to get an idea of like 47:09.960 --> 47:11.960 I mean 47:11.960 --> 47:19.960 Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Poland these will be the countries who drive this who have a very huge interest in this 47:19.960 --> 47:23.960 and here we also need to know what what do they aim for and 47:23.960 --> 47:25.960 maybe 47:25.960 --> 47:29.960 maybe try to counter this maybe try to 47:29.960 --> 47:33.960 add our ideas that they know that this 47:33.960 --> 47:37.960 maybe more than they have on the radar than they have at the moment 47:37.960 --> 47:39.960 right so 47:39.960 --> 47:45.960 in the first place it's just about like bring your ideas and and and make sure that they know about these ideas 47:45.960 --> 47:49.960 it's not about convincing in the first place it's just like 47:49.960 --> 47:53.960 place these ideas there and once you place them there then you fight for majorities 47:53.960 --> 47:57.960 it sounds a bit like this is one of the first 47:57.960 --> 47:59.960 files that we also 47:59.960 --> 48:05.960 work with Member States or that we try to reach out to talk to Member States about this or has this happened 48:05.960 --> 48:07.960 before because of the Cyber Resilience Act 48:07.960 --> 48:13.960 the only or I at least hear you talking a lot about MEPs and how important it is to 48:13.960 --> 48:15.960 go there to 48:15.960 --> 48:21.960 yeah establish all this kind of relationships and now it's also the Member States that 48:21.960 --> 48:25.960 like that get to play an important role for 48:25.960 --> 48:29.960 our work on that I mean I'd say 48:29.960 --> 48:33.960 I always knew what Member States at least trying to do 48:33.960 --> 48:37.960 or where if there's an issue that should be a trust 48:37.960 --> 48:41.960 at least for the for the big Member States so I'm 48:41.960 --> 48:45.960 I always had a rough idea if there's someone showing up and telling you 48:45.960 --> 48:49.960 that we need to kick off all of these Free Software bits in the Cyber Resilience Act 48:49.960 --> 48:51.960 then I would have been aware 48:51.960 --> 48:55.960 so but what's pretty true is that for the procurement thing 48:55.960 --> 48:59.960 and I'd say this is also related to our Public Money, Public Code initiative 48:59.960 --> 49:05.960 is we are pretty active with this Public Money, Public Code idea all over the Member States 49:05.960 --> 49:09.960 and why shouldn't we use you dear listeners, volunteers 49:09.960 --> 49:13.960 and people out there in the Member States to make sure that 49:13.960 --> 49:17.960 you also follow this file because I do believe this is 49:17.960 --> 49:21.960 of such an enormous importance for every citizen 49:21.960 --> 49:25.960 in every Member State that you should at least be 49:25.960 --> 49:29.960 aware what's happening and I'm also sure 49:29.960 --> 49:33.960 that this will be way more discussed also in 49:33.960 --> 49:37.960 national media, in national politics than 49:37.960 --> 49:41.960 that was true for the Cyber Resilience Act right so who takes care 49:41.960 --> 49:45.960 about the Cyber Resilience Act even in Germany right 49:45.960 --> 49:49.960 so that was it was so to say a niche debate 49:49.960 --> 49:53.960 so wouldn't wouldn't pop up in mainstream media 49:53.960 --> 49:59.960 but for procurement this is something which could pop up there which 49:59.960 --> 50:03.960 could even 50:03.960 --> 50:07.960 it's comparable to data protection it's comparable to the 50:07.960 --> 50:11.960 GDPR it's comparable to something like the Green Deal right 50:11.960 --> 50:14.960 so there's so much money in it there's so much interest in it 50:14.960 --> 50:18.960 and there's so much change in it that I do believe that 50:18.960 --> 50:24.960 it will it will happen in Member States to some 50:24.960 --> 50:28.960 extent and this is something where our community easily 50:28.960 --> 50:34.960 can talk to even local politicians they can talk 50:34.960 --> 50:38.960 to their local administration since procurement is 50:38.960 --> 50:42.960 happening just in front of you right so the Cyber Resilience Act 50:42.960 --> 50:46.960 is not happening in front of you so the 50:46.960 --> 50:50.960 the it's happening in three or four or five ways in front of you 50:50.960 --> 50:52.960 but procurement is something again you opened the door and 50:52.960 --> 50:56.960 procurement absolutely something that everybody is 50:56.960 --> 51:00.960 affected by I love how you phrase it in the end 51:00.960 --> 51:04.960 we already have like a lot of recording 51:04.960 --> 51:08.960 so let's come to a close is there something that 51:08.960 --> 51:14.960 we like that you want to add on that we haven't discussed yet 51:16.960 --> 51:20.960 follow us because there is there is so much more to say 51:20.960 --> 51:24.960 no really so again so this is really the beginning of something which 51:24.960 --> 51:28.960 will have a huge effect on how we live in Europe 51:28.960 --> 51:32.960 it's it's really it's one of one of the biggest things 51:32.960 --> 51:36.960 that the European Union can touch so it's it's 51:36.960 --> 51:40.960 there's there are so many billions in procurement 51:40.960 --> 51:44.960 and it's everyone is personally affected by this 51:44.960 --> 51:50.960 so it's a very significant file that is of such importance 51:50.960 --> 51:54.960 so and at the same time I do believe that we 51:54.960 --> 51:58.960 can make progress in the direction that helps 51:58.960 --> 52:02.960 fair and I mean again do not expect 52:02.960 --> 52:06.960 a saying article one says Public Money, Public 52:06.960 --> 52:10.960 Code and then full stop right so this won't be the outcome 52:10.960 --> 52:14.960 expectation management I think there we should be also like true 52:14.960 --> 52:18.960 but we can and we should aim for moving 52:18.960 --> 52:22.960 the whole file as close as possible to what's this idea 52:22.960 --> 52:26.960 towards the idea of Free Software first to what's the idea 52:26.960 --> 52:30.960 of sovereignty independence control of technology 52:30.960 --> 52:34.960 there is no other file that can give you 52:34.960 --> 52:38.960 so much power in order to to get this control over technology 52:38.960 --> 52:42.960 for us citizens 52:42.960 --> 52:46.960 within the next five six seven years 52:46.960 --> 52:50.960 and it's happening now so and it doesn't 52:50.960 --> 52:54.960 make sense to wait for seven years and then say oh now we have new 52:54.960 --> 52:58.960 rules and they are pretty shitty and 52:58.960 --> 53:02.960 don't do the mimimi in seven years work on this 53:02.960 --> 53:06.960 today help us support us now follow us follow us 53:06.960 --> 53:10.960 for news follow our emails on this if you haven't done so sign 53:10.960 --> 53:14.960 our Public Money, Public Code campaign this is the channel where we also 53:14.960 --> 53:18.960 communicate if you have put your email address there this is how 53:18.960 --> 53:22.960 news will get into your inbox this is also how you support us 53:22.960 --> 53:26.960 this is like signature of this idea where we can 53:26.960 --> 53:30.960 convince MEPs but also Member States and tell them 53:30.960 --> 53:34.960 look we have I don't know this many thousands signatures 53:34.960 --> 53:38.960 from this country and this helps us also to convince Member States 53:38.960 --> 53:42.960 and you you can help us by following 53:42.960 --> 53:46.960 our work by helping us 53:46.960 --> 53:50.960 in order to like follow what's happening in your Member State 53:50.960 --> 53:54.960 tell us about this so give us news whenever you see something 53:54.960 --> 53:58.960 where you believe that we should something that we should work on 53:58.960 --> 54:02.960 or that we should at least know about let us know about this if we all work 54:02.960 --> 54:06.960 together on this then we can make change we have seen this in other 54:06.960 --> 54:10.960 files we have seen this in several series we have seen this in the cover right 54:10.960 --> 54:14.960 directive right so we have to be discussed everything of this this to our 54:14.960 --> 54:18.960 previous podcast episodes if you haven't done so in order to learn 54:18.960 --> 54:22.960 how we can make change and I do believe that we are able to also make this 54:22.960 --> 54:26.960 change here in this file on the procurement act and ultimately 54:26.960 --> 54:30.960 put the donation button on fsfe.org and make sure that we 54:30.960 --> 54:34.960 can have salaries that we can travel to Brussels that we can 54:34.960 --> 54:38.960 actually continue this very and that that yeah 54:38.960 --> 54:42.960 that we get feedback from you that we should continue what we are doing 54:42.960 --> 54:48.960 and because that makes us happy if we can make you happy with our work 54:48.960 --> 54:52.960 absolutely I will take that as closing words very nice Alex 54:52.960 --> 54:56.960 so there's hardly anything else left for me to say 54:56.960 --> 55:00.960 thank you so much for being here thank you so much for joining me for this 55:00.960 --> 55:04.960 episode it was a pleasure as always and I'm very very much looking forward to 55:04.960 --> 55:08.960 I mean more podcasts maybe not that late in the evening 55:08.000 --> 55:12.000 but yeah maybe talk that fun anymore 55:12.000 --> 55:16.000 but really so yeah dealism is pretty so it was a late evening recording 55:16.000 --> 55:20.000 I hope you had as much fun as we had also we didn't have the recording for 55:20.000 --> 55:26.000 a very long while so that's why it wasn't or it was a bit more 55:26.000 --> 55:30.000 and funny like the first episode but I like that a lot 55:30.000 --> 55:34.000 I hope you like it too maybe you can leave us in the comments your 55:34.000 --> 55:38.000 if you should be more serious or 55:38.000 --> 55:42.000 now we say goodbye Alex it's okay yeah 55:42.000 --> 55:44.000 okay bye bye 55:44.000 --> 55:48.000 this was the Social Freedom Podcast if you like this 55:48.000 --> 55:52.000 episode please recommend it to your friends and rate it 55:52.000 --> 55:56.000 stay tuned for my inspiring conversations that explore the importance of 55:56.000 --> 56:00.000 freedom and its impact on our digital lives of course 56:00.000 --> 56:04.000 also our real lives as we have just discussed 56:04.000 --> 56:08.000 this podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation 56:08.000 --> 56:12.000 Europe and we are a charity that works on promoting software freedom 56:12.000 --> 56:18.000 if you like our work please consider supporting us with 56:18.000 --> 56:21.000 a donation you find more information on the 56:21.000 --> 56:25.000 fsfe.org/donate thank you so much bye bye