SFP#46: Policy and EU: Can the DMA help Free Software developers working with Android?
Back to the episode SFP#46
WEBVTT
00:00.000 --> 00:16.600
Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.
00:16.600 --> 00:20.600
This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe.
00:20.600 --> 00:25.600
We are a charity that empowers users to control technology and I'm Bonnie Mehring.
00:25.600 --> 00:29.400
Today I'm here with Dr. Lucas Lasota from...
00:29.400 --> 00:31.400
I'm trying to pronounce the correct, okay?
00:31.400 --> 00:38.200
The Chest Transition Center of the Martin Luther University of Halle, Wittenberg.
00:38.200 --> 00:42.600
Lucas is also in part-time working for the free Software Foundation Europe.
00:42.600 --> 00:44.600
So we are also co-workers.
00:44.600 --> 00:46.200
Yeah, thank you so much Lucas for making it.
00:46.200 --> 00:50.600
Thank you so much for being here and yeah, taking the time at Foster.
00:50.600 --> 00:53.000
It's a great pleasure to be here and I thank you very much, Bonnie.
00:53.000 --> 00:55.200
It has been a pleasure here.
00:55.200 --> 00:58.600
All right, how are you and how has Foster been so far?
00:58.600 --> 01:05.000
Well, I think you can guess from my voice that Foster is always like that.
01:05.000 --> 01:12.400
Very intensive, almost overwhelming, but very inspiring and very energizing.
01:12.400 --> 01:18.400
And it gives us this energy to keep going for software freedom for the entire year.
01:18.400 --> 01:23.600
I can imagine, I can imagine, it gives you a bit of a blast, but it's also like really exhausting at the same time.
01:23.600 --> 01:27.000
I have to take some days after Foster for sure.
01:27.000 --> 01:31.200
Well, I'll highlight so far like anything that you think, oh, this was really inspiring.
01:31.200 --> 01:35.200
This is the thing that will give me some energy boost for the next weeks.
01:35.200 --> 01:42.800
So, as you know, at the university and at FSFE, I mainly work with policy and legal issues.
01:43.000 --> 01:48.400
And during the whole year, these issues are very emotionally demanding, if you will,
01:48.400 --> 01:51.400
because you are always dealing with problems.
01:51.400 --> 01:59.000
Well, if people don't have problems, then we don't need the law and regulation on relation to problems.
01:59.000 --> 02:05.600
And during the entire year, you get accustomed to the challenge all the time.
02:05.600 --> 02:11.400
Now we are involved with platform regulation, Apple, Google, Microsoft.
02:11.400 --> 02:14.200
There's a lot of challenges for free and open source software.
02:14.200 --> 02:17.000
But here in Foster, you see the power of the community.
02:17.000 --> 02:19.000
And you see this thousand of developers.
02:19.000 --> 02:25.000
And you see their engagement, you see their excitement to produce alternatives
02:25.000 --> 02:29.600
to allow people to control technology, you know, to put forward software freedom.
02:29.600 --> 02:36.600
So I think my highlight to Foster is this energy boost that helps me keeping with my legal and policy work for the rest of the year.
02:36.600 --> 02:39.000
I can't imagine, I can't imagine.
02:39.000 --> 02:45.000
If so many people come together, there's like this energy that is accelerating between all of them.
02:45.000 --> 02:47.600
And it's like, yeah, it's amazing.
02:47.600 --> 02:51.200
I think for anyone based in Europe, even outside Europe,
02:51.200 --> 02:57.800
if you have the privilege and to visit Foster, I think even from anthropological point of view,
02:57.800 --> 03:02.000
I think it is a very, yeah, very rewarding experience.
03:02.000 --> 03:06.600
Again, imagine, but today, even so I would love to continue this conversation.
03:06.600 --> 03:12.200
We won't be talking about Foster, but we will be talking about the question,
03:12.200 --> 03:23.200
can the Digital Markets Act help to protect Free Software developers working with the Android Open Source project in short AOSP?
03:23.200 --> 03:24.200
Right?
03:24.200 --> 03:28.000
Yes. It's a very difficult question and happy to discuss with you today.
03:28.000 --> 03:33.200
I'm also happy and I will, I'm really looking forward to find out what you think about it.
03:33.200 --> 03:42.000
Before we dive into the topic, can you vary briefly outline your connection to the Digital Markets Act and how you came in contact with this?
03:42.000 --> 03:47.400
Yes. So a primer about this, why we're talking so much about this law.
03:47.400 --> 03:52.600
And if anyone goes to FSFE.org and go to the search function and put Digital Markets Act,
03:52.600 --> 03:56.000
you're going to see a lot of this stuff being published on this.
03:56.000 --> 04:09.600
Because we do think this is a very important regulation that can push to the adoption of free and open source software in critical aspects of our mobile devices,
04:09.600 --> 04:16.600
especially in relation to alternative app stores, browsers, search engines, operating systems.
04:16.600 --> 04:21.000
And because the main goal of this law, and this is an European Union law,
04:21.000 --> 04:26.000
that came into force in 2024, is to promote more competition in digital markets.
04:26.000 --> 04:28.600
That's why Digital Markets Act, you know.
04:28.600 --> 04:40.400
And the situation with the Drupal Apple slash Google over mobile ecosystems has been so intense and so entrenched that the regulators in Europe said
04:40.400 --> 04:47.000
we need to do something about it, we need to inject more competition in their markets and we need desperately for alternatives.
04:47.000 --> 04:53.600
And look, Bonnie, yesterday I was in a very nice talk from our colleague who is listening to this podcast.
04:53.600 --> 04:58.600
I highly suggest going to the Boston website and search for Gabriel Ku Wei Bin.
04:58.600 --> 05:02.600
And he gave a primer on the legal aspects of free and open source software.
05:02.600 --> 05:10.000
And he also gave us a historical, very short historical development of the movement from the legal perspective.
05:10.000 --> 05:17.000
And copyright establishes a monopoly when someone creates a creative work.
05:17.000 --> 05:19.600
So think about a book, think about software, a music.
05:19.600 --> 05:22.000
The creator has a monopoly over that work.
05:22.000 --> 05:26.000
Sometimes it's good, you know, because you wanted to have control about the work that you have.
05:26.000 --> 05:30.600
But sometimes this monopoly can be overstated, you know.
05:30.600 --> 05:37.400
And the main core of the Free Software movement was to disintermediate this monopolies.
05:37.600 --> 05:40.600
Then that's why we created a copy left.
05:40.600 --> 05:46.800
So the Free Software licenses is a medium to disintermediated monopoly over software.
05:46.800 --> 05:49.400
And we have been doing this for 40 years, right?
05:49.400 --> 05:54.800
And therefore this law that came in 2024 is just a next step on this fight.
05:54.800 --> 05:57.600
It's just a next step on this type of work.
05:57.600 --> 06:03.000
We are not concerning with copyright only, but we are concerning now with platform regulation.
06:03.000 --> 06:05.200
We are concerned about digital markets, right?
06:05.200 --> 06:14.800
And therefore this law is a trench where the FSFE and anyone that cares about Free Software should be involved.
06:14.800 --> 06:20.800
Because we really want to allow people to control technology, to control our mobile devices.
06:20.800 --> 06:27.800
And sometimes it's not possible without regulation because the situation becomes so disadvantages for Free Software developers,
06:27.800 --> 06:32.200
even for end user customers, not customers, I'm sorry, end users, right?
06:32.200 --> 06:33.800
Thank you.
06:33.800 --> 06:37.800
That without regulation we cannot do anything more about it, you know.
06:37.800 --> 06:41.800
Was this what you were thinking like when you were at the DMA, you were like,
06:41.800 --> 06:49.200
oh, this will be an next step to help end users to be more empowered.
06:49.200 --> 06:55.400
And that monopolies are not that much in the, in the power of controlling everything.
06:55.400 --> 06:58.400
Was this what you were thinking like when you read it?
06:58.400 --> 07:01.400
Yeah, that's a very good summary, yes.
07:01.400 --> 07:02.400
How did you feel about this?
07:02.400 --> 07:07.400
Were you like really inspired or were you like, I hope that this works out?
07:07.400 --> 07:09.400
Well, that's a very good question.
07:09.400 --> 07:18.400
I mean, when I jump out the bed every day, I think I have to think, well, this will go on our workout.
07:18.400 --> 07:20.400
Well, I hope it will work out.
07:20.400 --> 07:26.400
But this brings me to the question because we already touched a bit on the monopoly side.
07:26.400 --> 07:33.400
So it's now over 20 years ago that Google acquired the Android open source project, right?
07:33.400 --> 07:40.400
And your work of the University of Halle-Wittenberg, you did also study on Google
07:40.400 --> 07:46.400
and especially the policy shift in regard to AOSP.
07:46.400 --> 07:53.400
So in the study, you wrote the AOSP has served as a baseline not only for diverse commercial versions
07:53.400 --> 08:02.400
of Android-based operating systems, but also for alternative, non-profit community-driven versions of operating systems.
08:02.400 --> 08:09.400
Can you walk me through what happened like before Google took this policy shift in 2025
08:09.400 --> 08:16.400
and yeah, how Google has seen or how Google's role as a gatekeeper to be precise?
08:17.400 --> 08:23.400
Yeah, so just about some organizational aspects about this study before we move forward,
08:23.400 --> 08:25.400
this study has not been published yet.
08:25.400 --> 08:28.400
So we submitted this study to a publication in a legal journal.
08:28.400 --> 08:30.400
So this study has not been published.
08:30.400 --> 08:35.400
What we have is a working version that we already discussed in a conference.
08:35.400 --> 08:40.400
And this version that you have access is an internal one that we shared on this conference.
08:40.400 --> 08:43.400
And I'm happy to discuss this working version that you have.
08:44.400 --> 08:47.400
But this is not the official version that will be published yet,
08:47.400 --> 08:52.400
because we are waiting for the feedback of the peer review that we submitted.
08:52.400 --> 09:00.400
But I would like you to provide just a context on this study and why this is important work that we have been doing.
09:00.400 --> 09:08.400
Because in the last three years, my research work and also my work at the FSFE has been dealing with Apple.
09:08.400 --> 09:13.400
Apple has taken a very aggressive approach against this law,
09:13.400 --> 09:18.400
because this law tries to open up an infrastructure from Apple
09:18.400 --> 09:22.400
and to allow more competition on App stores, browsers,
09:22.400 --> 09:25.400
allowing interoperability for Free Software,
09:25.400 --> 09:31.400
not only for software, but Apple is questioning this whole law
09:31.400 --> 09:34.400
and saying that this law is in constitutional law,
09:34.400 --> 09:36.400
you know, it's not proportional.
09:36.400 --> 09:41.400
But sometimes we forget that there are other companies that this law applies to.
09:41.400 --> 09:46.400
And one of these companies are Google and other companies are Microsoft, Amazon,
09:46.400 --> 09:48.400
looking at their others.
09:48.400 --> 09:56.400
But the problem with Google is that how Google relates to this law is a little bit more nuanced than Apple.
09:56.400 --> 10:00.400
Apple has a very strong adversarial position against this law.
10:00.400 --> 10:04.400
But Google, since, as you already mentioned, in the beginning of this podcast,
10:04.400 --> 10:08.400
Google is responsible for the Android open source project.
10:08.400 --> 10:13.400
And Android open source project is a fundamental part of the Android operating system.
10:13.400 --> 10:23.400
And the Android operating system is the most popular and the most used operating system in the world, you know, by far, you know.
10:23.400 --> 10:25.400
And...
10:25.400 --> 10:27.400
You mean like on smartphone?
10:27.400 --> 10:28.400
Yeah.
10:28.400 --> 10:29.400
In mobile devices, right?
10:29.400 --> 10:36.400
So comes Android in the first place, then iOS in the second place and together, together,
10:36.400 --> 10:42.400
they have more than 99% of the entire market of mobile operating systems.
10:42.400 --> 10:45.400
We, of course, know we are from the Free Software community.
10:45.400 --> 10:49.400
We know that there are many others, alternatives, operating systems,
10:49.400 --> 10:53.400
that the Android base are not Android boys, they're the Linux phones, several of them.
10:53.400 --> 10:57.400
You know, but their part on the market are very thin, you know,
10:57.400 --> 10:59.400
that's less than 1%, unfortunately.
10:59.400 --> 11:01.400
And we want to change that.
11:01.400 --> 11:04.400
But today's topic is about Android.
11:04.400 --> 11:08.400
Perhaps we can do a podcast in the future about Linux phones.
11:08.400 --> 11:10.400
We did one. We did one in the past.
11:10.400 --> 11:11.400
I will link it on the show notes.
11:11.400 --> 11:12.400
Oh, that's a great, yeah.
11:12.400 --> 11:14.400
But we did one in the past.
11:14.400 --> 11:15.400
That's super cool.
11:15.400 --> 11:16.400
But...
11:16.400 --> 11:19.400
And Android, as you said, right?
11:19.400 --> 11:20.400
I would like to...
11:20.400 --> 11:25.400
Well, I'm old enough to remember 2007 the expectations we had.
11:25.400 --> 11:31.400
And Android, when Android came into the market, it was a blast, I remember.
11:31.400 --> 11:34.400
Everyone would like to have an Android phone.
11:34.400 --> 11:38.400
Because before that we were having kind of smartphones,
11:38.400 --> 11:41.400
but the smartphones, they were very limited in their capacity
11:41.400 --> 11:45.400
because they pre-installed apps just from the manufacturer.
11:45.400 --> 11:49.400
And Android came with this promise, you know, with this potential
11:49.400 --> 11:54.400
that you could install any software that you would like on your phone via the app store.
11:54.400 --> 11:59.400
And this would turn your smartphone as truly a general-purpose computer,
11:59.400 --> 12:03.400
you know, and you would have these awesome apps that you don't have in your PC
12:03.400 --> 12:07.400
because, well, the smartphone comes with other hardware functionalities.
12:07.400 --> 12:10.400
There's a camera, there's telemetry, there's a microphone,
12:10.400 --> 12:16.400
and you could bring software to a whole other level of experience and functionalities.
12:16.400 --> 12:17.400
And...
12:17.400 --> 12:20.400
I never looked at a smartphone like this,
12:20.400 --> 12:23.400
and now I feel like, oh, yeah, this is how I felt when I came in.
12:23.400 --> 12:26.400
That's how I felt when I got my first smartphone.
12:26.400 --> 12:28.400
Now everybody knows that I'm a bit older.
12:28.400 --> 12:29.400
Right.
12:29.400 --> 12:39.400
And I think Google understood the power of opening up their infrastructure
12:39.400 --> 12:42.400
to these type of contributions.
12:42.400 --> 12:47.400
Academically speaking, on a little bit more on the theoretical speaking,
12:47.400 --> 12:51.400
this strategic move has a name for it.
12:51.400 --> 12:54.400
It's called the power of the network effects.
12:54.400 --> 12:57.400
And what is the network effects?
12:57.400 --> 13:02.400
It means that any network, the value of this network,
13:02.400 --> 13:06.400
increase proportionally to the size of this network.
13:06.400 --> 13:10.400
So the bigger the network is, the more value it has.
13:10.400 --> 13:14.400
And that's why today, both Apple and Google,
13:14.400 --> 13:18.400
they don't want to lose control over their app stores
13:18.400 --> 13:23.400
because the app stores now it's a huge network of apps.
13:23.400 --> 13:26.400
And this network brings a lot of money to them.
13:26.400 --> 13:31.400
But aside from this, what really disrupt the market,
13:31.400 --> 13:34.400
in the end of the first decade of 2000s,
13:34.400 --> 13:37.400
we were talking about 2007 here, right,
13:37.400 --> 13:42.400
was when they opened up their infrastructure for apps,
13:42.400 --> 13:45.400
this disrupt completely the market,
13:45.400 --> 13:48.400
the dispute out of the market.
13:48.400 --> 13:51.400
Symbian, Nokia, they put out the palm.
13:51.400 --> 13:54.400
Remember palm, palm was super chic.
13:54.400 --> 13:56.400
So you're very young.
13:56.400 --> 13:59.400
No, I feel young again.
13:59.400 --> 14:04.400
But palm devices were the crème de la crème in the past.
14:04.400 --> 14:09.400
And they disrupted it.
14:09.400 --> 14:12.400
Now they're in museums.
14:12.400 --> 14:15.400
So Apple followed this,
14:15.400 --> 14:19.400
and they also opened up their infrastructure
14:19.400 --> 14:21.400
for external contributors.
14:21.400 --> 14:26.400
So the first version of the iPhone came without an app store.
14:26.400 --> 14:29.400
And there was what the first app store was,
14:29.400 --> 14:31.400
a free and open source one called CD.
14:31.400 --> 14:33.400
You could not install apps on it.
14:33.400 --> 14:36.400
No, no, the first version of the iPhone was completely closed
14:36.400 --> 14:39.400
and it came only with pre-installed apps.
14:39.400 --> 14:42.400
The first app store was a CD was a free and open source software.
14:42.400 --> 14:46.400
And two years later I don't know,
14:46.400 --> 14:50.400
Apple changed the operating system in order to block CD.
14:50.400 --> 14:54.400
And now the only way to install external software
14:54.400 --> 14:57.400
on smartphones were via their own app store.
14:57.400 --> 15:01.400
So the control over app stores already has a long history,
15:01.400 --> 15:03.400
a very long history.
15:03.400 --> 15:06.400
So why am I saying all of this?
15:06.400 --> 15:09.400
Because Google did one step further
15:09.400 --> 15:11.400
to not only open the app store,
15:11.400 --> 15:14.400
but to open the entire operating system.
15:14.400 --> 15:17.400
So they opened the operating system to free and open source.
15:17.400 --> 15:20.400
So Android, it is, well, at least, you know,
15:20.400 --> 15:23.400
parts of it, a free and open source project.
15:23.400 --> 15:26.400
There is one, which is licensed into the app 82.
15:26.400 --> 15:31.400
But the history doesn't end there, you know.
15:31.400 --> 15:33.400
And it would be very easy to say,
15:33.400 --> 15:38.400
yes, we have the most successful free and open source project of all time
15:38.400 --> 15:41.400
because billions of people are using it.
15:41.400 --> 15:44.400
But the history unfortunately doesn't end there.
15:44.400 --> 15:50.400
And Google has excerpt control over iOSP in different forms,
15:50.400 --> 15:53.400
not only via the licensing aspect.
15:53.400 --> 15:55.400
And we can talk about this.
15:55.400 --> 16:01.400
How to control iOSP in a way that would hinder software freedom
16:02.400 --> 16:05.400
to others to exercise this traditional way
16:05.400 --> 16:10.400
that we see software freedom in such powerful ways
16:10.400 --> 16:15.400
and anti-competitive ways that in 2018,
16:15.400 --> 16:20.400
you know, Google got record fines from the commission
16:20.400 --> 16:24.400
because of this anti-competitive practice.
16:24.400 --> 16:26.400
I can imagine what was this fine about
16:26.400 --> 16:30.400
and like what was this EU commission saying there?
16:30.400 --> 16:34.400
So Google's strategy was a pretty clever one in the beginning
16:34.400 --> 16:36.400
so they open up the platform.
16:36.400 --> 16:40.400
And then suddenly, you know, if you were a manufacturer,
16:40.400 --> 16:43.400
if you were a smart one manufacturer,
16:43.400 --> 16:48.400
then you could adapt the functionalities
16:48.400 --> 16:51.400
of your devices to the operating system.
16:51.400 --> 16:55.400
And this was something truly revolutionary, you know.
16:55.400 --> 16:59.400
Because manufacturers, they always have the problem of
16:59.400 --> 17:01.400
the chicken and egg, you know.
17:01.400 --> 17:03.400
If you want a successful device,
17:03.400 --> 17:06.400
you need this operating system for it.
17:06.400 --> 17:09.400
But then, in order to have an operating system,
17:09.400 --> 17:11.400
you need a device for it.
17:11.400 --> 17:17.400
Let's put this on a context.
17:17.400 --> 17:21.400
Recently, I met some folks from risk five.
17:21.400 --> 17:25.400
Risk five is an open hardware specification for chips
17:25.400 --> 17:30.400
and they were telling their talks exactly this problem.
17:30.400 --> 17:34.400
They wanted to find a device that would enable them
17:34.400 --> 17:37.400
to have risk five, you know,
17:37.400 --> 17:40.400
and having this open architecture on laptops,
17:40.400 --> 17:43.400
but then they have to find an operating system for this.
17:43.400 --> 17:46.400
And so it took several years for them,
17:46.400 --> 17:50.400
but yeah, Ubuntu agreed and then they found also a device manufacturer.
17:50.400 --> 17:53.400
But anyway, so let's go back to 2007.
17:53.400 --> 17:55.400
In 2018.
17:55.400 --> 17:57.400
No, no, I started with 2008.
17:57.400 --> 17:59.400
2018 is the fine, right?
17:59.400 --> 18:00.400
Yes, it is.
18:00.400 --> 18:02.400
Until we got there.
18:02.400 --> 18:04.400
So manufacturers were facing this problem.
18:04.400 --> 18:06.400
You know, and they said, okay.
18:06.400 --> 18:08.400
Okay, I have this cool device,
18:08.400 --> 18:09.400
but I need an operating system.
18:09.400 --> 18:13.400
But the operating system is very expensive to develop.
18:13.400 --> 18:16.400
You know, think about how many hours of work you need
18:16.400 --> 18:18.400
to have a cool operating system.
18:18.400 --> 18:19.400
And then you have apps.
18:19.400 --> 18:20.400
You need to add the apps.
18:20.400 --> 18:22.400
And then the apps should run on the operating system.
18:22.400 --> 18:25.400
And you know, how are we going to do this?
18:25.400 --> 18:29.400
You know, so Google came with a solution for this.
18:29.400 --> 18:31.400
And they said, look, we will have Android.
18:31.400 --> 18:35.400
Android will be open and you will be able to adapt your devices
18:35.400 --> 18:37.400
to have Android running on it.
18:37.400 --> 18:40.400
So they really solve this problem
18:40.400 --> 18:43.400
for many, many, many, many manufacturers.
18:43.400 --> 18:44.400
You know?
18:44.400 --> 18:46.400
So manufacturers, okay, cool.
18:46.400 --> 18:50.400
But then here comes the trick.
18:50.400 --> 18:51.400
You know?
18:51.400 --> 18:54.400
And I would like to introduce here in our talk
18:54.400 --> 18:56.400
how Android is organized.
18:56.400 --> 18:58.400
The Android stack, right?
18:58.400 --> 19:02.400
Because the Android stack is where Google exerted it
19:02.400 --> 19:06.400
and exerced control over OSP until today.
19:06.400 --> 19:07.400
You know?
19:07.400 --> 19:11.400
And this also what led the European Commission 2018
19:11.400 --> 19:14.400
to establish records finds.
19:14.400 --> 19:16.400
You know, it was really.
19:16.400 --> 19:18.400
I don't have the, I forgot the numbers.
19:18.400 --> 19:19.400
But I may be wrong.
19:19.400 --> 19:20.400
You can check.
19:20.400 --> 19:22.400
But it was on the billion scale.
19:22.400 --> 19:24.400
That's quite a lot of money.
19:24.400 --> 19:25.400
Very.
19:25.400 --> 19:28.400
Because with this, what I'm going to say right now,
19:28.400 --> 19:33.400
Google was able to lock in entirely all the manufacturers
19:33.400 --> 19:35.400
on the Android ecosystem.
19:35.400 --> 19:38.400
So by opening up the operating system layer
19:38.400 --> 19:41.400
to free and open source software,
19:41.400 --> 19:45.400
Google was able to immediately attract millions and millions
19:45.400 --> 19:49.400
of, you know, the developers that were interested
19:49.400 --> 19:52.400
into contributing to the platform that was already, you know,
19:52.400 --> 19:53.400
exploring.
19:53.400 --> 19:55.400
They said, okay, we're going to be there.
19:55.400 --> 19:58.400
And they were also able to attract the manufacturers.
19:58.400 --> 20:00.400
So they were able to bring together.
20:00.400 --> 20:03.400
And this is what makes a platform good.
20:03.400 --> 20:06.400
A platform brings different sides together.
20:06.400 --> 20:08.400
And Google did this with Android.
20:08.400 --> 20:09.400
Android is a platform.
20:09.400 --> 20:10.400
Yeah.
20:10.400 --> 20:12.400
So that other device manufacturers could use Android
20:12.400 --> 20:16.400
and just use, have a bit of a customized version.
20:16.400 --> 20:18.400
But they are then also part of this.
20:18.400 --> 20:21.400
And Google is like there providing the services.
20:21.400 --> 20:22.400
Yes.
20:22.400 --> 20:23.400
But here's the trick.
20:23.400 --> 20:27.400
Because as soon as you license your operating system
20:27.400 --> 20:30.400
as free and open source software,
20:30.400 --> 20:34.400
this gives them the permission to market, you know,
20:34.400 --> 20:38.400
they can market and they can have their own version of it.
20:38.400 --> 20:39.400
Right?
20:39.400 --> 20:42.400
And well, we could have.
20:42.400 --> 20:43.400
Right?
20:43.400 --> 20:46.400
And I think this is the beauty of free and open source movement.
20:46.400 --> 20:48.400
We can have, you know, many, many of them.
20:48.400 --> 20:49.400
Right?
20:49.400 --> 20:53.400
But then, and this only became clear in 2018.
20:53.400 --> 20:57.400
Because, you know, it was in 2018, where the world understood
20:57.400 --> 21:02.400
how Google have this strategy around our speed that, you know,
21:02.400 --> 21:06.400
that didn't allow alternatives to strive.
21:06.400 --> 21:09.400
How they have to network and control, basically.
21:09.400 --> 21:10.400
Yes.
21:10.400 --> 21:16.400
And so via agreements with manufacturers, side agreements, right?
21:16.400 --> 21:19.400
So it was not on the license, you know,
21:19.400 --> 21:23.400
it was side agreements on the compatibility side.
21:23.400 --> 21:27.400
You know, so Google said, okay, so we wanted to be compatible
21:27.400 --> 21:28.400
with Android.
21:28.400 --> 21:31.400
You know, we have to sign this agreement with me, this side agreement.
21:31.400 --> 21:33.400
So we have the license here on one hand,
21:33.400 --> 21:36.400
but there is the agreement on the other hand.
21:36.400 --> 21:41.400
And these agreement, there were clauses forbidding manufacturers
21:41.400 --> 21:43.400
to fork Android.
21:43.400 --> 21:46.400
So it was called anti-forking agreements.
21:46.400 --> 21:51.400
You know, if you are, if you decided to fork Android,
21:51.400 --> 21:56.400
then you would not be allowed to install the Google suite.
21:56.400 --> 21:58.400
And what is the Google suite?
21:58.400 --> 22:01.400
Google suite is their Google Play Store.
22:01.400 --> 22:06.400
The security aspects of the Play Store, you know,
22:06.400 --> 22:11.400
and all the apps that Google in the old history has developed
22:11.400 --> 22:16.400
and has acquired YouTube, Chrome, and many, many other apps
22:16.400 --> 22:20.400
that people, well, they like to have on their smartphones, you know.
22:20.400 --> 22:22.400
You mean like the Google services that they...
22:22.400 --> 22:26.400
The Google services, the Google service, you know.
22:26.400 --> 22:31.400
And this was a very strong, disincentive
22:31.400 --> 22:34.400
and very strong threat to manufacturers, you know.
22:34.400 --> 22:41.400
Otherwise, they would go back pre-2007 when they had to develop
22:41.400 --> 22:44.400
their own operating system, you know.
22:44.400 --> 22:49.400
And it's super, super cool.
22:49.400 --> 22:52.400
I mean, cool in one hand as a researcher to read about it,
22:52.400 --> 22:55.400
but in other hand, it's very sad.
22:55.400 --> 23:00.400
But because they were managed to keep basically
23:00.400 --> 23:04.400
the entire ecosystem of Android manufacturers
23:04.400 --> 23:07.400
into this very strict locking.
23:07.400 --> 23:10.400
Until 2018, when the Commission said,
23:10.400 --> 23:14.400
man, this is super anti-competitive, you know.
23:14.400 --> 23:18.400
And there's a problem there, you know.
23:18.400 --> 23:21.400
And on a side note, it's very interesting,
23:21.400 --> 23:25.400
because you can read several analysis in 2007
23:25.400 --> 23:31.400
that historically, Microsoft was able to do this
23:31.400 --> 23:34.400
with laptops of computers.
23:34.400 --> 23:37.400
And in 2008, the vice manufacturer said,
23:37.400 --> 23:40.400
we don't want it to have a Microsoft 2.0 in our lives.
23:40.400 --> 23:43.400
And that's why we need an open source solution.
23:43.400 --> 23:46.400
And Google came with an open source solution,
23:46.400 --> 23:48.400
but Google were able to...
23:49.400 --> 23:54.400
But on the positive side of things, you know,
23:54.400 --> 23:57.400
not to be standing that the device manufacturers
23:57.400 --> 24:03.400
got locked in in this environment, you know.
24:03.400 --> 24:07.400
The nature, the free open source nature of iOSP
24:07.400 --> 24:11.400
allowed for fork if you were not a manufacturer.
24:11.400 --> 24:13.400
So, you know, if you don't have a device
24:13.400 --> 24:16.400
and you don't want it to enter in these compatibility agreements
24:16.400 --> 24:19.400
with Google, you could fork, you know.
24:19.400 --> 24:21.400
And you could create custom ROMs.
24:21.400 --> 24:22.400
Yes, exactly.
24:22.400 --> 24:26.400
What changed then with the release of Android 16?
24:26.400 --> 24:30.400
So, what, like, this was before 2025.
24:30.400 --> 24:33.400
But what happened afterwards, like, with Android 16,
24:33.400 --> 24:35.400
there was a policy ship.
24:35.400 --> 24:36.400
Yes.
24:36.400 --> 24:37.400
Precisely.
24:37.400 --> 24:40.400
And this is completely related now to alternative ROMs.
24:40.400 --> 24:42.400
And what is alternative ROMs?
24:42.400 --> 24:46.400
For audience, audience that is hearing this term for the first time.
24:46.400 --> 24:50.400
You know, technically, this is not a correct term
24:50.400 --> 24:53.400
to alternative ROMs, because we're not talking about ROMs,
24:53.400 --> 24:54.400
precisely.
24:54.400 --> 24:56.400
But basically, alternative operating systems
24:56.400 --> 24:57.400
that are based on Android.
24:57.400 --> 25:01.400
So, there is Android stock that is developed and controlled by Google.
25:01.400 --> 25:06.400
But then you can fork this and then you can make your own customized,
25:07.400 --> 25:10.400
you know, altered version of Android.
25:10.400 --> 25:11.400
There are several of them.
25:11.400 --> 25:15.400
You know, there are the very privacy-oriented ones like Grafino AS,
25:15.400 --> 25:20.400
there are ones that are intended to allow a great deal of compatibility
25:20.400 --> 25:23.400
with different types of devices like LanoAjo AS.
25:23.400 --> 25:27.400
There are other ones like Morena, EOS.
25:27.400 --> 25:29.400
There are many of them out there.
25:29.400 --> 25:30.400
Many, you know.
25:30.400 --> 25:33.400
We also have them with the free-your-and-work initiative.
25:33.400 --> 25:34.400
We have a page.
25:34.400 --> 25:37.400
We can link that in the show and other people can look it up.
25:37.400 --> 25:38.400
Yeah, yeah.
25:38.400 --> 25:41.400
So, they come in different flavors.
25:41.400 --> 25:44.400
But I think security and privacy are the main drivers.
25:44.400 --> 25:48.400
People, they want their Android devices to be a little bit more secure
25:48.400 --> 25:54.400
than they search for these alternative Android operating systems.
25:54.400 --> 25:58.400
But again, I would like to highlight that these are not Linux phones.
25:58.400 --> 26:00.400
They depend on Android.
26:00.400 --> 26:06.400
And they depend on how information is made available on Android.
26:06.400 --> 26:12.400
And this shift that you just mentioned is Google hindering
26:12.400 --> 26:17.400
a big deal of interoperability information inside OSP
26:17.400 --> 26:24.400
that can create a big struggle for these alternative ROMs to survive.
26:24.400 --> 26:28.400
You know, so it's basically enclosing,
26:28.400 --> 26:35.400
it's a step on enclosing more of a OSP restricting these alternative ROMs.
26:35.400 --> 26:40.400
And together with my research group, we work on this,
26:40.400 --> 26:43.400
we think that this is not compatible with this law
26:43.400 --> 26:46.400
that we mentioned in the beginning of our podcast, Digital Market Act.
26:46.400 --> 26:50.400
We do believe that interoperability, mandating this law is very broad.
26:50.400 --> 26:56.400
And this shifts what answering is that Google is stopped to provide
26:56.400 --> 27:01.400
some type of information that are very important for alternative ROMs.
27:01.400 --> 27:06.400
For example, interoperability information regarding the device,
27:06.400 --> 27:09.400
called the device trees, interoperability information
27:09.400 --> 27:14.400
regards to the source code history, you know, and also hardware drives.
27:14.400 --> 27:19.400
So this were type of information that Google decided to hinder
27:19.400 --> 27:23.400
or to publish later, sometimes they blocked,
27:23.400 --> 27:25.400
but sometimes they decided to publish later.
27:25.400 --> 27:30.400
So it created barriers for these alternative operating systems
27:30.400 --> 27:34.400
to compete with Google stock Android.
27:34.400 --> 27:38.400
This does this, like, hinders them to continue to developing
27:38.400 --> 27:43.400
those alternative ROMs or will there be a way around?
27:43.400 --> 27:46.400
Like, because you did some any research,
27:46.400 --> 27:50.400
you highlighted, you did some interviews with developers,
27:50.400 --> 27:52.400
as far as I understood.
27:52.400 --> 27:55.400
And like, what was their reaction towards this?
27:55.400 --> 28:01.400
So their reaction was quite negative and very worrisome.
28:01.400 --> 28:05.400
And they're saying this puts high loads on us
28:05.400 --> 28:09.400
to reverse engineer this type of information.
28:09.400 --> 28:12.400
And the thing is that outside of this law,
28:12.400 --> 28:15.400
this would create already competitive issues.
28:15.400 --> 28:18.400
But then the difference between competition law
28:18.400 --> 28:21.400
and this particular law, the DMA that we're talking about,
28:21.400 --> 28:26.400
is that in competition law, we need to wait until we see the harm.
28:26.400 --> 28:30.400
So we have to wait some years, and then...
28:30.400 --> 28:35.400
Oh, yes, indeed, there are some harm in the community.
28:35.400 --> 28:38.400
But this law is different.
28:38.400 --> 28:41.400
There is already a do-and-don't list.
28:41.400 --> 28:43.400
We don't need to wait.
28:43.400 --> 28:46.400
I think that blocking this type of interoperability information
28:46.400 --> 28:48.400
is already against this law.
28:48.400 --> 28:52.400
And that's why we tried to build a legal argument for this.
28:52.400 --> 28:55.400
Look, we do believe that inside Google,
28:55.400 --> 28:59.400
there's a lot of people that believe in free and open-source software.
28:59.400 --> 29:02.400
Google is a company that was founded on these ideals.
29:02.400 --> 29:05.400
They have a very strong Ospo.
29:05.400 --> 29:09.400
They have a very strong food on the community.
29:09.400 --> 29:12.400
And therefore, we do believe that this type of work
29:12.400 --> 29:16.400
helps them to re-evaluate their practices
29:16.400 --> 29:22.400
and to let alternatives inside the free and open-source movement to thrive.
29:22.400 --> 29:24.400
I hope it will.
29:24.400 --> 29:28.400
But was this also like the researchers in the interviews also see this?
29:28.400 --> 29:33.400
Or was it more like that they are afraid that they will have to stop?
29:33.400 --> 29:36.400
I mean...
29:36.400 --> 29:38.400
Sorry, not researchers, but developers.
29:38.400 --> 29:41.400
Yes, exactly.
29:41.400 --> 29:46.400
So I think that when you depend on a platform,
29:46.400 --> 29:51.400
any platform, there is an imbalance.
29:51.400 --> 29:55.400
And this is normal in any platform.
29:55.400 --> 30:02.400
Unless the platform is really democratically governed.
30:02.400 --> 30:05.400
But otherwise, there is always this imbalance.
30:05.400 --> 30:07.400
And we are trying...
30:07.400 --> 30:08.400
Like the hierarchy.
30:08.400 --> 30:09.400
Yes.
30:09.400 --> 30:13.400
And we are trying with regulation to level a little bit more the playing field.
30:13.400 --> 30:18.400
So at least we can have alternatives inside this ecosystem.
30:18.400 --> 30:22.400
So end users can choose and can have more competition among themselves,
30:22.400 --> 30:26.400
among alternative ROMs and stock Android itself.
30:26.400 --> 30:33.400
So I really don't want to have only one provider of Android.
30:33.400 --> 30:39.400
I think Android is a marvelous technological speaking operating system.
30:39.400 --> 30:44.400
And since it is fundamentally free and open source on its core,
30:44.400 --> 30:47.400
I think that this alternative ROMs they should thrive.
30:47.400 --> 30:52.400
They should allow people to have alternatives to install on their Android devices.
30:52.400 --> 30:59.400
And this is the goal of our work in the DMA is to inject more competition into Android ecosystem.
30:59.400 --> 31:04.400
Do you think there is an actual chance that a DMA can help us here to predict
31:04.400 --> 31:08.400
Free Software developers or is it a two-flastiger?
31:08.400 --> 31:09.400
No.
31:09.400 --> 31:14.400
No, I do think it's a viable instrument to search for.
31:14.400 --> 31:18.400
But look, it's not a miracle's instrument.
31:18.400 --> 31:20.400
Nowadays, in the EU...
31:20.400 --> 31:23.400
I want to have that because make it like that.
31:23.400 --> 31:26.400
Look, we are talking about digital sovereignty.
31:26.400 --> 31:28.400
We are talking about democratization.
31:28.400 --> 31:30.400
We are talking about the next generation of the internet.
31:30.400 --> 31:34.400
We are talking about the future of the web.
31:34.400 --> 31:36.400
The DMA is only one instrument.
31:36.400 --> 31:38.400
And I am a legal person.
31:38.400 --> 31:40.400
And that's why I talk a lot about the DMA.
31:40.400 --> 31:46.400
But if you go to any other strategist in the FSC in my research group at the university,
31:46.400 --> 31:49.400
there are people looking into other aspects.
31:49.400 --> 31:55.400
So we need to talk how to fundamentally change digital markets to a more democratic one.
31:55.400 --> 31:58.400
But DMA can help certainly, but alone it cannot do.
31:58.400 --> 32:00.400
So we need funding for Free Software.
32:00.400 --> 32:02.400
We really need funding for Free Software.
32:02.400 --> 32:06.400
And not only VC type of fund, we need a really public money type of fund
32:06.400 --> 32:11.400
that will enable collective effort on our society to Free Software.
32:11.400 --> 32:13.400
That is a public good.
32:13.400 --> 32:15.400
Free software is a public good.
32:15.400 --> 32:16.400
It's digital commons.
32:16.400 --> 32:19.400
Think about a park in our city.
32:19.400 --> 32:20.400
Think about a highway.
32:20.400 --> 32:23.400
Think about a railroad.
32:23.400 --> 32:25.400
They are public.
32:25.400 --> 32:27.400
And Free Software is the same.
32:27.400 --> 32:31.400
So therefore, we need to diversify the sources of funding.
32:31.400 --> 32:36.400
We need to diversify the strategy in order to make the digital markets more democratic.
32:36.400 --> 32:40.400
DMA can help, but we need many, many other venues and instruments.
32:40.400 --> 32:41.400
I absolutely agree.
32:41.400 --> 32:44.400
We need strategic and long term funding, especially.
32:44.400 --> 32:46.400
So it does not need to be short term.
32:46.400 --> 32:49.400
It needs to be really long term so that others can rely on it.
32:49.400 --> 32:51.400
And that it will be there.
32:51.400 --> 32:54.400
What's the European Commission's perspective on this?
32:54.400 --> 32:59.400
Do you know if they think they will act up on the shift in the Google policy?
32:59.400 --> 33:01.400
Yes, we will talk with them.
33:01.400 --> 33:03.400
They are monitoring this.
33:03.400 --> 33:10.400
And we are also monitoring their activity on this.
33:10.400 --> 33:18.400
A very good news I can share is that last week the European Commission started a new regulatory process
33:18.400 --> 33:26.400
to help Google to comply with the digital markets act in relation to interoperability and AI.
33:26.400 --> 33:30.400
AI falls a little bit out of scope of what we are talking about here,
33:30.400 --> 33:36.400
but the interoperability part for sure is included on the scope of this.
33:36.400 --> 33:40.400
And we will make sure on our research that the university
33:40.400 --> 33:44.400
or in our monitoring type of work that we do in the FSFE,
33:44.400 --> 33:50.400
to have DMA being forest on a Free Software developer friendly way.
33:50.400 --> 33:51.400
This is good to know.
33:51.400 --> 33:54.400
I'm very happy that there's a goal for us.
33:54.400 --> 34:00.400
So to finalize this, do you think that the DMA can actually help here?
34:00.400 --> 34:03.400
Like that it's protecting Free Software developers?
34:03.400 --> 34:04.400
Yes or no answer?
34:04.400 --> 34:05.400
Yes.
34:05.400 --> 34:06.400
Perfect.
34:06.400 --> 34:07.400
Thank you so much.
34:07.400 --> 34:08.400
I'm very much looking forward to this.
34:09.400 --> 34:11.400
How can the community help now?
34:11.400 --> 34:14.400
Oh, that's perhaps the most important question.
34:14.400 --> 34:17.400
And I'll try to be very concise on this.
34:17.400 --> 34:25.400
I'm very, very grateful for the Android developers from different operating systems that help us to understand all of this.
34:25.400 --> 34:27.400
And they were so nice.
34:27.400 --> 34:34.400
And I will make sure that in our next I love Free Software today to have a very beautiful message to all of them out there.
34:34.400 --> 34:38.400
But how the community can help is with technical advice to us,
34:38.400 --> 34:44.400
you know, spreading the world about this and leveraging our position together.
34:44.400 --> 34:46.400
So we have a coalition.
34:46.400 --> 34:50.400
We have an allies together and say, look, this is important for the whole movement.
34:50.400 --> 34:51.400
Thank you, Lucas.
34:51.400 --> 34:52.400
Thank you so much for being here.
34:52.400 --> 34:54.400
Thank you so much for walking us through this.
34:54.400 --> 34:56.400
And yeah, thank you for taking the time.
34:56.400 --> 34:58.400
The pleasure is always my thank you so much.
34:58.400 --> 34:59.400
This was really interesting.
35:00.400 --> 35:07.400
I'm, yeah, I'm now really much looking forward to the community coming back to us and letting us know what they think as well.
35:07.400 --> 35:11.400
Thank you also for the first live edition of the software freedom podcast.
35:11.400 --> 35:13.400
Thank you so much for being here.
35:15.400 --> 35:17.400
This was the software freedom podcast.
35:17.400 --> 35:22.400
If you liked this episode, please recommend it to your friends and rated.
35:22.400 --> 35:28.400
Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance of software freedom and its impact on our digital lives.
35:29.400 --> 35:34.400
This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe,
35:34.400 --> 35:39.400
and we are a charity that works in promoting software freedom.
35:39.400 --> 35:43.400
If you like our work, please consider supporting us for the nation.
35:43.400 --> 35:48.400
You can find more information under fsfe.org/donate
35:48.400 --> 35:50.400
Thank you so much for listening.
35:50.400 --> 35:51.400
Bye-bye.
35:59.400 --> 36:01.400
Bye-bye.
Back to the episode SFP#46