SFP#54: FSFE is turning 25! Come and celebrate with us!
SFP#54: Policy and EU: Keep Android Open, what is the FSFE doing?
Back to the episode SFP#54
WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:18.440 Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. 00:18.440 --> 00:21.000 Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. 00:21.000 --> 00:26.400 Without you and your support, this podcast would not be possible. 00:26.400 --> 00:29.280 Thank you our dear listener. 00:29.280 --> 00:33.720 This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 00:33.720 --> 00:37.680 We are a charity that empowers users to control technology. 00:37.680 --> 00:41.760 Today, I'm here with Jithendra Palepu. 00:41.760 --> 00:50.000 And we will be talking about the very intensely discussed topic of Android developer verification. 00:50.000 --> 00:53.760 So this has been over the news lately. 00:53.760 --> 00:59.840 So this has been all over the news during the past months, I would already say. 00:59.840 --> 01:06.280 And it's a topic that's very, that's discussed very intensely. 01:06.280 --> 01:08.480 Let's put it like that. 01:08.480 --> 01:11.640 Very, very happy to have Jithendra here with me. 01:11.640 --> 01:13.840 Thank you so much for taking the time. 01:13.840 --> 01:17.160 And yeah, it's very nice to have you here on the Software Freedom Podcast. 01:17.160 --> 01:19.000 Thank you so much, Jithendra. 01:19.000 --> 01:20.120 Yeah, hi, Bonnie. 01:20.120 --> 01:21.120 Thanks for having me. 01:21.120 --> 01:23.440 We're here to be here. 01:23.440 --> 01:26.680 You work for the FSFE team, right? 01:26.680 --> 01:28.480 What do you do there? 01:28.480 --> 01:40.760 Yes, my main work is on Digital Markets Act and our litigation against Apple and other related topics on the DMA. 01:40.760 --> 01:51.240 It involves research and contributing to the consultation process of different regulators. 01:51.240 --> 01:59.920 And writing research articles and presenting the voice of Free Software to the regulators 01:59.920 --> 02:07.680 and to the academics and different outside actors, if I may use that word, 02:07.680 --> 02:16.760 to make them aware of the problems and the views of Free Software community. 02:16.760 --> 02:24.600 It has a lot to do with legal side as well, all those kind of regulations that are coming up there, right? 02:24.600 --> 02:25.600 Do you enjoy that? 02:25.600 --> 02:28.920 Or is there something sometimes things that you say, oh my God, 02:28.920 --> 02:35.040 why do I have to explain this now for the fifth time, what Free Software or how do you perceive this work? 02:35.040 --> 02:44.320 No, I think I definitely enjoy it because I am not a developer and I am a lawyer by training. 02:44.320 --> 02:50.720 And I always wanted to work in the intersection of law and technology. 02:50.720 --> 02:56.720 So for me, this is the space where I thrive. 02:56.720 --> 02:58.320 That's very nice. 02:58.320 --> 03:02.600 And how did you get involved for Free Software? 03:02.600 --> 03:11.600 Okay, my first interaction with Free Software, I would say is maybe VLC media player, of course, like many people. 03:11.640 --> 03:17.560 And also playing video games, I used to own a console and broke it, 03:17.560 --> 03:22.280 but then I found that there are things, these things called emulators. 03:22.280 --> 03:29.200 Emulators create maybe like a software based version of a console environment, 03:29.200 --> 03:34.400 allowing games designed for that console to run on a computer basically. 03:34.400 --> 03:40.280 So I was able to play all sorts of games through these emulators on my computer 03:40.280 --> 03:49.320 that made me question why a game I had access to could only be played on one particular device. 03:49.320 --> 03:54.120 And yeah, this is my first interaction with Free Software. 03:54.120 --> 04:01.440 And later I realized that most of these emulators are Free Software and I was very thankful. 04:01.440 --> 04:09.800 And yeah, and of course, ad blockers were also one of my first Free Software that I used. 04:09.840 --> 04:16.160 So that's basically your interaction with technology that made you think about like, 04:16.160 --> 04:22.640 I want to use Free Software and I want to have this freedom in choosing where I play games, 04:22.640 --> 04:26.000 how I play games and how I interact with the technology. 04:26.000 --> 04:26.800 Yeah, exactly. 04:26.800 --> 04:33.640 So as I said, so I had access to a game that could only be played on one particular device, 04:33.640 --> 04:39.000 rather than on a computer that was technically also capable of running it. 04:39.000 --> 04:45.320 So then it made me question because I don't have the console, I have a computer, 04:45.320 --> 04:50.920 but I have this emulator installed on this computer and I was able to play all the games 04:50.920 --> 04:53.400 that I was playing on the console. 04:53.400 --> 04:59.440 So it was a really beautiful experience at the time at least. 04:59.440 --> 05:06.840 So, yeah, that was my first interaction with software freedom and these ideas, 05:06.840 --> 05:12.840 like reverse engineering and I mean, I mean, I don't even know that these words existed 05:12.840 --> 05:18.640 then, but now looking back, I didn't realize it then, but it was probably my first encounter 05:18.640 --> 05:26.840 with these ideas and now, fast forward, these are the topics I work on today. 05:30.840 --> 05:35.840 Well, that's very intriguing, I would love to discuss this further because you're the first 05:35.840 --> 05:42.040 person that I met who's playing video games and this is how they started to think about software 05:42.040 --> 05:43.040 freedom. 05:43.040 --> 05:49.400 But today, we will be talking about the Android developer verification. 05:49.400 --> 05:53.240 This is also one of the topics you work on. 05:53.240 --> 05:56.000 Can you give me an introduction to this? 05:56.000 --> 06:01.680 Because this has been all over the news, this has been discussed in various mediums and 06:02.680 --> 06:09.680 a lot of people hold talks already about this and there's a lot of fear going on. 06:09.680 --> 06:16.680 But let's take a step back and let's see what actually is the Android developer verification. 06:16.680 --> 06:19.680 Sure, I will try, yes. 06:19.680 --> 06:28.680 So in August 2025, Google released a blog post introducing this developer verification 06:29.680 --> 06:37.680 program. It's essentially requires all the developers everywhere in the world to register centrally 06:37.680 --> 06:42.680 with Google in order to be able to distribute the apps they make. 06:42.680 --> 06:49.680 And that means that no matter what country you are in, you need to go to Google and register 06:49.680 --> 06:57.680 with personal data with your government ID, register and pay some fees to Google, 06:57.680 --> 07:06.680 agree to their terms and conditions and then upload the evidence of your signing keys and 07:06.680 --> 07:08.680 this kind of stuff. 07:08.680 --> 07:19.680 So you need to sign a mini file or something that Google will send to you so that they want 07:19.680 --> 07:25.680 to prove that you are the person who is able to cryptographically sign the applications 07:25.680 --> 07:26.680 you will be making. 07:26.680 --> 07:30.680 So it basically wants you to share personal data with them. 07:30.680 --> 07:39.680 Yes, as a mechanism to have more control of what is getting inside their platform and to check 07:39.680 --> 07:46.680 because this, so in continuation to this, if you do not do this, then starting next year, 07:46.680 --> 07:53.680 all Android certified devices will block apps that have not been verified by Google. 07:54.680 --> 07:57.680 So even if you download them from F tried. 07:57.680 --> 07:58.680 Yes. 07:58.680 --> 08:07.680 And I use the word Android certified device and it's basically a thing that Google approves 08:07.680 --> 08:18.680 that so most of the devices people own are Android certified devices and around 95% 08:18.680 --> 08:25.680 and it's like Google's certification that, okay, this is, I certify this and they meet our standards 08:25.680 --> 08:28.680 and this is an Android certified device. 08:28.680 --> 08:33.680 It has Google Play Store installed in it and Google Mobile Services installed in it and outside 08:33.680 --> 08:42.680 of China, these are overwhelmingly a huge majority there, 95% of devices are Android certified devices. 08:42.680 --> 08:52.680 So basically this whole developer verification program is going to affect the entire world 08:52.680 --> 08:58.680 and the app distribution in Android throughout the world. 08:58.680 --> 08:59.680 Yes. 08:59.680 --> 09:01.680 Wow, that's quite a lot. 09:01.680 --> 09:07.680 And China is probably an exception because of their own system that they have in place 09:07.680 --> 09:15.680 because they don't really have the same Android person as outside of China do. 09:15.680 --> 09:16.680 Yes. 09:16.680 --> 09:24.680 It's also very clearly written in Google's blog posts about this and China, I mean, 09:24.680 --> 09:32.680 they have their own system as a set and there are also some other players coming out of China. 09:32.680 --> 09:37.680 So it's a different, it's a different beast. 09:37.680 --> 09:41.680 That's good for it like that. 09:41.680 --> 09:48.680 All right, for everybody who has not read the blog post, we will link it in their show notes. 09:48.680 --> 09:54.680 So you can take a look there and also dive deeper into this topic. 09:54.680 --> 10:00.680 As this has been published now for quite a while, what has happened since then? 10:00.680 --> 10:01.680 Sure. 10:01.680 --> 10:08.680 So later updates were also quite interesting, an interesting quote unquote. 10:08.680 --> 10:19.680 So Google has proposed that users who wish to install unverified apps may eventually need an advanced user flow. 10:19.680 --> 10:28.680 This is for those who are willing to navigate through these additional security warnings and procedures. 10:28.680 --> 10:33.680 The process, it could involve like a sequence of additional steps, 10:33.680 --> 10:42.680 not only to make installation technically hard and complicated, but also discouraging it altogether. 10:42.680 --> 10:49.680 For example, like mandatory cooling off period of up to 24 hours or warning screens 10:49.680 --> 10:53.680 when you want to install this app that is unverified. 10:53.680 --> 11:00.680 There will be a scare screen that, oh, this is an unverified application, do you want to continue or not? 11:00.680 --> 11:10.680 So it requires and the user has to acknowledge that they may be under coercion or under a social engineering attack. 11:10.680 --> 11:18.680 So it involves around nine steps and first involving that the user has to go to settings, 11:18.680 --> 11:26.680 turn on the developer mode, and I mean, you know, how to turn on developer mode is also like you need to click, 11:26.680 --> 11:33.680 go to settings and click tap on the build number for seven or ten times depending on the device. 11:33.680 --> 11:39.680 And then you enter the developer mode and then the next steps come in. 11:39.680 --> 11:44.680 Then you have to, there will be a 24 hour cool off period. 11:44.680 --> 11:51.680 So you can't do anything in this 24 hours and then you can, you again have to go through the scare screens 11:51.680 --> 11:54.680 that, okay, now you want to install an unverified app. 11:54.680 --> 11:59.680 You have to click, okay, I acknowledge the risks involved. 11:59.680 --> 12:07.680 And so it involves a nine whole steps that Google thinks is a way for, 12:07.680 --> 12:16.680 let's just use like a technologically savvy users, if they want to install or like take educated risks, 12:16.680 --> 12:24.680 then they have to follow this multi-step process to install apps on the devices they own. 12:24.680 --> 12:31.680 So basically they are trying to lock everything down to the Google Play Store for normal users 12:31.680 --> 12:39.680 and to like have all the personal data of the developers, because if you submit something to Google Play Store, 12:39.680 --> 12:49.680 they want you to share those kind of data and avoid having other platforms where you can get apps. 12:49.680 --> 12:51.680 Yes, it involves a lot of friction, right? 12:51.680 --> 13:00.680 So the later updates this advanced flow program, it involves a lot of friction for a user. 13:00.680 --> 13:05.680 Let's just look at a user journey, like I consider myself as an average user. 13:05.680 --> 13:10.680 And I would like to install an app that is unverified. 13:10.680 --> 13:14.680 Let's just say from, from F-Droid. 13:14.680 --> 13:20.680 F-Droid does not require any of these verification processes for their developers. 13:20.680 --> 13:23.680 And I want to install something from F-Droid. 13:23.680 --> 13:27.680 And I have to, I have to go through all these nine steps, like developer mode. 13:28.680 --> 13:36.680 So this in a way, it affects average users like me massively. 13:36.680 --> 13:42.680 It discourages users to not use unverified apps. 13:42.680 --> 13:47.680 Interestingly, I can give one reference. 13:47.680 --> 13:56.680 Epic Games, last year, they released a study on this multi-user step. 13:57.680 --> 14:05.680 So their idea was, I mean, you know, they have been fighting legal battles against Apple and Google, 14:05.680 --> 14:11.680 left and right everywhere, like in many parts of the world, you as being the first. 14:11.680 --> 14:21.680 So they had a process where they were looking at how a six-step process and a nine-step process. 14:21.680 --> 14:25.680 Basically, let's say five steps and 10 steps process. 14:25.680 --> 14:30.680 And they were comparing the user drop off rates for Epic Games App Store. 14:30.680 --> 14:35.680 They had their own App Store and they were trying to compare the numbers on iOS. 14:35.680 --> 14:41.680 So when a user wants to install Epic Games Store on iOS, there's this multi-step process. 14:41.680 --> 14:45.680 And they were comparing how many users gave up. 14:45.680 --> 14:48.680 And it's staggering. The numbers are crazy. 14:48.680 --> 14:53.680 And many people give up. This is essentially lock-in, right? 14:53.680 --> 14:58.680 So this is the vendor lock-in that we talk about when we talk about device neutrality. 14:58.680 --> 15:04.680 And so users are giving up and they're stuck within this ecosystem. 15:04.680 --> 15:10.680 And they will end up using the apps that the vendor is providing. 15:10.680 --> 15:12.680 In this case, it is Google. 15:12.680 --> 15:19.680 But I can absolutely understand it, to be honest, because we are all limited on time. 15:19.680 --> 15:25.680 And our daily life is becoming more and more dense. 15:25.680 --> 15:33.680 So there's hardly a moment for you to take a breath to sit down, to read a good book or to take a break. 15:33.680 --> 15:40.680 And then you are asked to click, click, click, click, click, click, multiple times and devote a lot of time to this action. 15:40.680 --> 15:47.680 That's quite annoying and it can also, like, it's frustrating in a sense. 15:47.680 --> 15:57.680 Because it takes away your precious time to do something and you really need to want this kind of action. 15:57.680 --> 16:05.680 And like, you need to be able to say, yes, I want to devote 20 minutes on reading everything and going through that. 16:05.680 --> 16:10.680 And also wait for 24 hours. Yes, I'm very much focused on that. 16:10.680 --> 16:15.680 So it's like, this is a lot of effort you ask for. 16:15.680 --> 16:18.680 Exactly, exactly. You put it very well there. 16:18.680 --> 16:21.680 Yeah, so it's a big ask, right? It's really a big ask. 16:21.680 --> 16:26.680 I'm wondering now, what does Google wants to solve with this kind of approach? 16:26.680 --> 16:39.680 Yeah, so the only reason they seem to state is to prevent repeat malware offenders from being able to operate. 16:39.680 --> 16:54.680 So this, it looks like they're citing very extreme cases where there's a malware or scam app that pretends to be your banking app or something and tries to get your credentials on that pretext. 16:54.680 --> 16:59.680 And yeah, still solve your money and agreed in all fairness. 16:59.680 --> 17:15.680 This is a legitimate concern and there are fraudulent apps on a wide scale available right in many Asian countries, even in even in Europe, but numbers in Asia are higher. 17:15.680 --> 17:37.680 It's just that it's a legitimate concern, but it might not prevent that these scams will happen because any developer can, for example, with this verification, anybody can take a falsified credentials from someone and register themselves and create the fake scam app again. 17:38.680 --> 17:43.680 So yeah, it's not really effective, right? 17:43.680 --> 17:55.680 But the idea is that they're tackling financial scams and malware that is prevalent on their platform and that is what they keep on citing. 17:55.680 --> 18:04.680 But at the same time, the timing is very interesting because of new requirements from the Epic Games lawsuit in the US. 18:04.680 --> 18:15.680 They settled the case and some requirements from that settlement is that Google has to allow third party app stores within their play store. 18:15.680 --> 18:30.680 So they have to allow third party app stores now from now on and they came up with this registered app store program where they will allow some app stores to which are qualified in their opinion, which qualified their own standards. 18:30.680 --> 18:35.680 They will allow these app stores with less friction. 18:35.680 --> 18:47.680 But one thing before we dive into this into this topic further is I just saw that when you when you talked about that they want to try to prevent scam. 18:47.680 --> 18:54.680 This is also what I read and what I heard before and also when I was reading this, I was like, well, but behind scam. 18:54.680 --> 19:00.680 There's also an industry. So there's money involved in this regard. 19:00.680 --> 19:11.680 And so far, there has always been a bay of finding new ways to scam people. 19:11.680 --> 19:19.680 And I find it's very interesting because it's not a partner that you can very easily solve. 19:20.680 --> 19:25.680 Yeah. I mean, this story, it's not so new. 19:25.680 --> 19:37.680 Yes, it's a legitimate concern, but it also is the implementation or the measures taken to tackle this are quite overblown. 19:37.680 --> 19:44.680 And it's not so new like whenever a single firm has exercise control over a technological ecosystem. 19:44.680 --> 19:53.680 It has often argued that greater like more openness threatens security of their of their ecosystem. 19:53.680 --> 20:04.680 It's not a new thing that the company says that this affects my security and my integrity of my platform. 20:05.680 --> 20:09.680 And it's absolutely absolutely a very common argument. 20:09.680 --> 20:14.680 And as you already pointed out with all the aspects there as well. 20:14.680 --> 20:21.680 Back to this epic game study or sorry, this epic game lost it in the USA. 20:21.680 --> 20:25.680 Basically, the outcome of this was that there will be registered app stores. 20:25.680 --> 20:37.680 So this is kind of like Google's way to address the digital markets act that's also calling for interoperability and dip option to install third party apps. 20:37.680 --> 20:51.680 Yes. So this this comes out as a settlement from the US lawsuit, but also it kind of it can be a way yes for Google to comply with the digital markets act in the EU. 20:51.680 --> 21:02.680 Because you mentioned interoperability that's really a good hook for me to explain this because installing a third party app store and in Google. 21:02.680 --> 21:07.680 Let's say Google Google's platform is also interoperability. 21:07.680 --> 21:17.680 Interoperability does not mean that you need access to some feature of a platform in order for your third party service to work. 21:17.680 --> 21:37.680 So many people have this that for example, we let's say a third party watch wants to have really good connectivity with Apple's watch to iPhone basically with Apple's mobile and Apple's watch. 21:37.680 --> 21:49.680 Watch they connect very seamlessly they work very perfectly and the third party watch would also like to be connected seamlessly to Apple's mobile and that is interoperability. 21:49.680 --> 22:01.680 But using user installing a third party application store and app store is also an interoperability because you're also interacting with the platforms operating system in general. 22:01.680 --> 22:11.680 You want the app store your third party app store to work seamlessly like how the platforms own native app store is working seamlessly. 22:11.680 --> 22:24.680 So how you want a similar you want equal treatment basically how Google's play store is working on Android device you want the same functionality and seamlessness for your own third party app store. 22:24.680 --> 22:52.680 That's all they ask and that's all the digital markets act is asking and yeah, so this look this registered app store program looks Google also cited this in their compliance report to the DMA that so every year they have this compliance reports where they they write a lot and you have to evaluate this commission has to evaluate this and then they have dialogue there. 22:52.680 --> 23:21.680 And in this second version like recent version of compliance report Google mentioned that this as a as a way for them to comply with digital markets act where one article talks about its article 64 6.4 they mentioned this article requires that gatekeepers should allow third party app stores for the users to be able to install this and Google cited this. 23:21.680 --> 23:50.680 Register that store program as a way to comply but it remains to be seen how how the European Commission will evaluate this and I mean again we are talking about centralized control we are talking about Google exercising control and since it's a very fresh thing we still don't do not know much details of this but there are terms and conditions are the one that I will watch. 23:50.680 --> 24:08.680 And that's where the that's where the devil is so and they will is in the details and the terms and conditions and agreements that you have to be you have to sign in order for your app store to be there. 24:08.680 --> 24:37.680 You need to check those and check them for compatibility with with the DMA itself so you can't just have you can just say that yes we are allowing third party app stores but then again this is a hypothetical scenario so but then again if you have terms and conditions that are unreasonable that also violates the DMA so we have to evaluate this and then see but but you're right this this is Google's next step to show that should to show how they are compliant. 24:38.680 --> 25:07.680 So I'm going with the DMA sorry I went overboard very interesting don't apologize this is very very intriguing subject to be honest because it's like it affects a lot of people as you already said the counter devices and it's amazing how much it affects like nearly everybody because even if you don't use those kind of apps the possibility is gone for you. 25:07.680 --> 25:25.680 So I think it's a very very important topic to talk about and yet to see what will be happening as far as I understood the final implementation of Google's Android developer verification will come in September or 25:25.680 --> 25:52.680 in September and it's rolling out for for specific selected countries at the moment Brazil Thailand Indonesia and then global roll out will be from next year and we do not know the details of what exactly that will start applying to everybody from next year but we know that it's from 25:52.680 --> 26:20.680 2027 that it will be applicable globally so in regard to community how is the Free Software community reacting to this because obviously there's a lot of things going on there there's a lot of there's a lot of talk but will be happening in September then but what is the Free Software community doing to keep Android open basically. 26:20.680 --> 26:48.680 There's an initiative or a campaign like a global protest that's that happened that's currently happening it's called keep Android open and this initiative it essentially calls out Google to reverse the decision and shows how how it will affect everybody and details everything keep Android open.org if anybody wants to check and 26:48.680 --> 27:17.680 they had an open letter and it's been signed by more than 70 organizations worldwide and the community talks talks a lot about this and many developers have publicly stated that they will not sign up for the developer verification and yeah and this keep Android open initiative it it has like call for actions divided on three categories for users 27:17.680 --> 27:46.680 they want the users to go to their local authorities and government departments and complain to them and explain why this is problematic and because I mean what more can the user do up this itself is a big big thing big effort if they do this that globally then that's that's one one thing how they are calling users to contribute to this and for developers 27:47.680 --> 28:14.680 do nothing they say and do not sign up for this and do not pay anything to Google I mean it's it's the fees that we are talking about is $25 US dollars and but still you take the government ID you take you make them sign the terms and conditions and on top there's also a fees so I leave that up to the listeners interpretation 28:15.680 --> 28:42.680 and and for governments the initiative calls for monitor this closely and analyze this based on your local competition law or any other law that deals with this check the compatibility against this and address this as soon as possible and these are some of the these are majorly the I covered all the call for actions from keep Android open 28:42.680 --> 28:49.680 this is this is one big major reaction from the community unified into yeah 28:49.680 --> 28:54.680 what is the FSFE doing to protect Free Software developers and disregard 28:54.680 --> 29:11.680 that we signed this open letter keep Android open we signed it and we are approaching this from from several directions not just this specific mandate that Google brought in like first we with many organizations we signed this letter 29:11.680 --> 29:33.680 and the goal is is there to raise awareness among users and developers and it there's already quite a lot of awareness on this secondly the European Commission is currently developing the interoperability rules for Android under digital markets act 29:33.680 --> 29:51.680 and the FSFE we recently submitted our position calling on the commission to ensure that developers can access Android's interoperability features without having to register with Google or sign Google developer agreements 29:51.680 --> 30:12.680 so we also argued there in the same submission that users should be able to completely uninstall pre installed AI features from Android devices so this is one and thirdly we have we filed a complaint against Google on uninstalling software on Android devices 30:12.680 --> 30:29.680 we are engaging directly with with the commission and we have along with article 19 every GFF and homo digital is we we had like a technical and legal analysis on Google's compliance with the DMA 30:29.680 --> 30:48.680 and it's not just on developer verification and for example this this complaint is is a joint complaint to the commission are giving that Google was not complying with the articles of the DMA that enable users that that give users the ability to uninstall 30:48.680 --> 31:06.680 so because Android is preventing users from genuinely uninstalling pre installed Google applications and yeah the law asks Google to enable users to uninstall not disabled we file a complaint against this 31:06.680 --> 31:23.680 and more broadly like our goal is to ensure that European regulation like like the DMA is enforced as it is and the tool and its promise for Free Software developers 31:23.680 --> 31:45.680 whether it is on Apple's interoperability obligations or Google's Android practices the main question is the same can developers build and distribute apps without having to seek permission from a from a gatekeeper and can users remain free to choose the software they run on the devices. 31:45.680 --> 32:03.680 All right now I feel we have done it like a very balanced podcast episode on all of the topics in regard to this Android developer verification to tell our last question is there anything our community can do to support us here 32:03.680 --> 32:09.680 our listeners for example how what can they do to take action and to safeguard software freedom. 32:09.680 --> 32:38.680 Yeah I mean first thing I would say is follow the FSF is work and follow follow our work and check out the keep Android open website and if you haven't then please do so and yeah and install Free Software app stores and saw repositories like after I'd and if you haven't already then use them and then see for yourself and yeah 32:39.680 --> 33:08.680 then whenever you can try to tell others how it impacts there I mean there's there's always a question why how does this impact a normal user or something like this or how does this impact other iOS users or something but it impacts because it's the device you have is a computer and it's it's capable of running more things than you know of 33:08.680 --> 33:33.680 and it's capable of running any apps that you install and you should be able to install this on your device and you have been doing this but Android promise was open since the beginning and now it's slowly going in a different direction and that will impact your freedoms and that's why you should be concerned about this. 33:33.680 --> 33:43.680 Thank you thank you so much for taking the time and walking us to the topic Android developer verification and yeah thank you very much the time. 33:43.680 --> 33:45.680 Thank you thanks for having me. 33:45.680 --> 33:46.680 It was a pleasure. 33:46.680 --> 33:47.680 Thank you. 33:47.680 --> 33:55.680 This was the software freedom podcast if you liked this episode please recommend it to your friends and rated. 33:56.680 --> 34:04.680 Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance of software freedom and its impact on our digital lives. 34:04.680 --> 34:16.680 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software foundation Europe and we are a charity that works on promoting software freedom if you like our work. 34:16.680 --> 34:19.680 Please consider supporting us with other nation. 34:19.680 --> 34:27.680 You find more information under fsfe.org/donate and in the show notes. 34:27.680 --> 34:31.680 Thank you so much for listening and staying with us. 34:31.680 --> 34:34.680 Yeah let's keep up the good work for software freedom. 34:34.680 --> 34:35.680 Bye bye. 34:46.680 --> 34:48.680 Bye.