SFP#44: Policy and EU: Navigate through current relevant EU initiatives
Back to the episode SFP#44
WEBVTT
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It should be very more clear that we want and should invest in free software and that
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we want to get rid of big tech.
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We want to get rid of dependencies.
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We want to get rid of proprietary software.
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We want administrations that control technology.
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Hello, and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.
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This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation, Europe.
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We are a charity that empowers users to control technology.
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And I'm Bernie Mehring.
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And today I'm here with my colleague, Alexander Sander.
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Hi, Alex.
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Hi, Bernie.
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Nice to have you back.
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Yeah, happy new year.
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Happy new year to you, too.
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What has happened in the past weeks?
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Oh, I gained some more kilos, I think.
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So it was very tasty.
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Not only days, but other than that.
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Also, some things happened in the Free Software sphere.
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So there's also some updates which we want to share with you in our very first
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policy podcast episode here in the new year.
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And so loads of food and loads of free software.
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Sounds like a perfect and relaxing holiday, to be honest.
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Yeah, half half.
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OK.
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Which half is not a relaxing part?
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Well, well, there are a couple of consultations ongoing.
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And yeah, so this is also something which we want to address today in our
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podcast.
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So, and yeah, this keeps us busy.
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And also during holidays, we were working.
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And so by that, we haven't been only eating, but also working.
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OK.
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How about you?
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I did not have that much chance to eat.
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I mean, there was enough food around at a 39C3.
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Yeah, you have been at the conquest, right?
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So how was it?
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I was really nice.
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It was like, there were a lot of people and it was just a special feeling of
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coming back to this very, very special Congress and conference that you can
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only experience with the CCC.
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So it's like an amazing event and it's amazing to be there.
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And we also had a podcast recording there with Heise, which I enjoyed quite a
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lot.
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It was about digital sovereignty.
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So one of the topics that we to cover extensively in this podcast as well.
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And it was really nice in German, sadly, only, but it was really nice to talk
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with Sven Neuhaus from the Zendis and Anne Roth.
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And of course, Keywan was also there from Heise and C't uplink.
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About their views on digital sovereignty and was, yeah, well done, I think.
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And it's worth a listen.
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I know that you have listened to it.
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Yeah, I have done so.
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Yeah.
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So I can recommend it definitely.
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So it's a very interesting hour and, yeah, also, as you said, it's very interesting
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to get some insights.
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Also, I think the mixed panel is very interesting.
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So we have people from tenders, as you said, so a governmental, yeah, more or less.
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We can see from Anna who is working in the Bundestag on the field of digital.
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And obviously you, as the expert professor of this, are really, really interesting balance
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talent.
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Thank you.
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Yeah.
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I also found it very entertaining to see the slightly different perspectives from the
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background that everybody brings along.
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So it also gives it a bit of a new and fresh air and to talk about this topic.
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I will link it in the show notes so that you can also find it and listen to it, our
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dear listeners.
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No, listen to it.
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It's really good.
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Yeah.
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All right.
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So, but for this day, we will also talk about the digital decade policy program, which
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wants to set up a monitoring and cooperation mechanism to achieve the common objectives
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and targets for Europe's digital transformation.
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This sounds...
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That's what the PR said.
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This is what the PR said.
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Yes.
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I was also like, okay.
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But it's the sentence that puts everything into one sentence, which does not really say
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much.
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Absolutely.
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So, can you take us through this?
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What exactly is the digital decade policy program?
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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It's another initiative by the European Commission.
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So it's a European Union program and, yeah, obviously they talk about a whole decade.
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So it's a program which lasts until 2030.
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So that's the aim for this and every year they come up with some new initiatives.
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They are also longer lasting than a year, but every year there's also some sort of evaluation
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report.
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And what they want to do in this digital decade policy program is to work basically on
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four topics, which is infrastructure.
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So they want to invest in a gigabit connectivity, European, whatever singing, then they want
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to invest or also the ability crown for digital business in Europe.
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They want to work on skills so that we have more ICT specialists here in Europe and ultimately
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government plays also role so that the key public services are online and that you have
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a EID and that you can access your health records online, stuff like this.
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So and yeah, we basically focus mostly on the part of government, but also business since
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business provides services for government.
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And this has spillover effects on skills, so these are the topics for us.
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We are interested in this digital decade policy program and what they do at the moment is
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to run a consultation to see what they can do in the next five years and what they might
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change or where they should put their focus on.
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And this is what we want to talk about today.
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So what can you contribute to this consultation and basically take on our views on this digital
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decade policy program and also like put it in a broader context.
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I mean, you'll listen probably to the other podcast episodes where we also talked about
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the financial situation.
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So the funding of free software also we talked a lot about procurement and stuff like
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this.
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So this is if you like just another program which is important for basically the use and
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spread of free software in administrations across Europe and we want to have a look
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at how is it working, what are they doing at the moment, where are we at the moment and
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what can we expect from the next five years and what do we do demand basically for the
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next five years in this digital decade policy program.
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Right.
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You've already covered some of the points that they consider important for the digital decade
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policy program.
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And where they constructed and what's the aim of this in total like what do they want
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to achieve.
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So I mean, we also talked about the digital Europe program which has a slightly comparable
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name so to say if you like, which was set up in light of the Corona crisis that the
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opinion and figured out that we are pretty much dependent on big tech and that it's very
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difficult to have sewer and IT infrastructure.
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So they started to work on this digital Europe program in order to address this.
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And then next to it, they came up with this digital decade policy program which is if
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you like a bit broader, but it also basically addressed the same topics like cybersecurity.
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They talk about a set infrastructure stuff like this.
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So it's a bit broader in terms of like it's not only about software, it's about digital
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in general and there are also some, so to say, soft goals in this like, as I said, they
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want to have more skills in Europe and for this they have several project programs.
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But most of this is also like voluntary.
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So the commission tries to stimulate cooperation between member states.
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They try to come up with projects and ideas and want to basically make sure that member
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states collaborate on this field of digital and particularly when you think about the free
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software with its four freedoms to use that you share and improve.
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For us, it's pretty obvious that free software should play a very, very important role in
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all of this.
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I can say it plays a role, but it could be way more proactive.
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It could be way more ambitious and this is basically also what we put in our feedback
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and we want to have this is also what we what we talked about the funding part.
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We want to have this everything a bit more sustainable and a bit more mid and long term
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oriented.
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And often when we talk about the opinion and we see pilot projects, we see some loose
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corporations, everything is a bit cracky so you don't know if it's still there tomorrow.
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It's pretty much depending on member states initiatives.
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So if they want to step in, if they want to contribute, if they want to collaborate
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and to be honest, I would love to see a bit more pressure and power behind this and also
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some more clarity on how important free software is in order to achieve this.
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So what they, for example, have done in the past is to come up with the edic consortium.
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So it's the European Digital Infrastructure Consortium.
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So there are a couple of initiatives and one of these initiatives, one of these consortias
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is around digital technological, so Renety, this was set up during the summit for European
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digital sovereignty, which was happening in Berlin in November.
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My colleague, Johannes, have been there and they are during that event, they have been
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launching this consortium, so it's a pretty new thing.
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And it's bringing together member states, namely France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy.
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It's more or less supported by Luxembourg and Slovenia and there are some observers as
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well, Poland and Belgium that might also join as members very soon here.
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So you see, it's basically some member states coming together that want to work on this topic
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of technological sovereignty.
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For Germany, for example, it's a sovereign tech agency that works on cybersecurity as
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well as the tenders, the organization which you just mentioned related to your podcast
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where you attend it, so which is basically a state-owned company that comes up with open
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desk, so on free software solution, for administrations to have a digital sovereign workplace.
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So and they want to collaborate in this consortium in order to come up with pool of resources.
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They want to share strategic best practices and ultimately maybe even code.
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And this is happening in such a initiative, which is basically supported or which is basically
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coming from this digital decade policy program.
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So by thus, you can see how it works.
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So you have basically the umbrella with the digital decade policy program and under this umbrella,
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you have other initiatives that are going to be set up or that are already running like
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this edit consortium on technological sovereignty.
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And here, member states that are willing to work together, are coming together and do so.
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And here you can also see that it's not covering every member state in the European Union nor
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doesn't cover, so to say a European Union wide approach, it's more or less a coalition
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of member states that are willing to work together, that are willing to collaborate
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and that then come up with strategy solutions and hopefully a lot of free software,
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which is then used among them.
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For me, the question remains, how do we make sure it spreads across Europe?
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How do we involve other member states and how do we make sure that they really make progress?
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Do you see that the European Commission is doing something in this regard
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or are they still waiting for member states who get active by themselves?
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I mean, they do a lot of public relations around it.
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Also, I do believe that this summit helped to promote this edit lounge,
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but at the same time, this is something which I learned from Johannes,
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who was at this summit for European digital sovereignty when this editing was launched,
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that free software didn't play that major role there.
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So it was more around this, by European, made in Europe, arguments,
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the ministers have talked a lot to SAP, and they didn't talk that much to the free software companies there.
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One could say they have been around, they have been recognized,
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but there is still not the relevance and the importance of their plays in all of this,
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is still not seen or addressed accordingly, I'd say.
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So there is way more room for improvement.
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I do believe it's a good first step, but there should be way more,
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and this is also what I always say when we talk about funding,
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it needs to be sustainable, right?
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So we need to make sure that when they come up with these kinds of activities,
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that they are mid and long-term oriented, that they receive the needed funding,
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that they get resources, and that ultimately, the solutions they come up with are also used, right?
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So it's not just about coming up with projects and saying,
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look, now we have an alternative.
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It's also about using these alternatives, and this is ultimately administrations.
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So for example, if you look at the Ministry for Digitalization in Germany,
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this is for me, obviously, the first ministry that should switch to Open Desk
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and make sure they use it and show other administrations, institutions,
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that it's working, and here we can also see that they struggle to spread their solutions
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and that they really do migrations and replace the dependencies that they build over the last decades.
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And here, I do believe the opinion that also member states could be very more ambitious
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and actually act and use these solutions they come up with
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and not just put them in the niche and put some nice PR around it,
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but also implement and go forward and get rid of these dependencies,
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get rid of proprietary software, and go in the direction of free software,
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since this is the obvious choice to achieve digital sovereignty when we talk about software.
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You mentioned that free software is not yet recognized as the important role it plays
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because free software is everywhere, and you and our listeners, you all know this,
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how important free software is to our digital life and our digital infrastructure.
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What are we, the FSFE, doing to promote the standing of free software?
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Because this is one of our core activities.
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Absolutely. I mean, as I said, there is the ongoing consultation on this digital decade policy
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program in order to give feedback to the commission how we do believe the next five years should look
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like. Basically, what I was just referring to in the last minutes is what we put in writing in
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this consultation. We ask for sustainable long term funding. We ask for free software first
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policy. We ask to basically also use these kinds of solutions. This is what we put in the consultation,
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and we do not stop with this consultation, and we also do not stop with the digital decade policy
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program. We also directly talk to decision makers in the European Union, the commission,
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but also the parliament. We also work on member states level, and by thus also try to
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influence the council position here. Also, next to these programs, we also had the podcast on
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procurement. There's also this ongoing consultation on the impact assessment on the procurement
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reform, where they talk a lot about by European or made in Europe, and maybe, for example,
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at rest, that free software is something global and that you should have an eye on this as well,
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and ultimately, also next to the digital decade policy program and the procurement reform,
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there's also ongoing consultation, which is pretty, pretty new on the open source strategy
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of the European Union, so there is basically, you can also find this on our media channels,
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where we give feedback on an evaluation of the European open source strategy,
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and this is about to be renewed now, and here we will also take part in the consultation,
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and this is also what I meant earlier when we started the podcast. There are lots of
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consultations ongoing at the moment, so we are producing a lot of paper work at the moment,
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and give feedback to the commission on all of the digital and free software policies, procurement,
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but also funding, and what we try to achieve is to give them a big picture and to combine
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activities in several fields, and to basically not only talk about the digital decade policy
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program, but also procurement, but also a budget of the European Union and the open source strategy.
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We also talked about stacks, you know the European commission is also working towards open
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internet stack, where we also try to make sure that free software plays a very more important role,
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and what we can see in all of this is that free software somehow plays a role, but we do believe
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it should play a very more important role, it should be very more clear that we want and should
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invest in free software, and that we want to get rid of big tech, we want to get rid of dependencies,
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we want to get rid of proprietary software, we want administrations that control technology,
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and when we talk about software, then the solution must be free software. This is what we are
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trying basically in all of these fields by taking part in these consultations. This is also a call
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for your dear listeners to also take part in these consultations. So it's important that they
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that they see that there are a couple of voices out there that take care, so it definitely helps
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to take part in such consultations. You can find our feedback on the half your save portal
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of the European commission. If you put it in the show notes precisely, there you can read what we
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put there as a feedback, you can come up with a remix of this or you can find your own words,
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this is definitely helping in order to tell the commission that we do care, but also you
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support us with a donation so that we basically can do the work and that we can come up with these
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feedback to consultations, but that we are also able to travel to Brussels to talk to decision
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makers, or that we can go to these kinds of events like the summit for European digital serenity,
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so that we can take part. So this is how you can support us here. This is how you can help to make
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sure that the free software ecosystem in Europe is spreading and living well. So basically our work
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is to build the ground, so this means we educate decision makers, we tell them about our views,
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we are there to answer and address their questions they might have, but also to bring in our positions
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basically to fight for free software first policy. In all of these fields, also to try to connect
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these topics, so you also need to know that it's not always the same people working on this,
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and there are several director generals working on this, so DG, so the procurement reform is
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happening somewhere else, then the budget debate, then the digital decade policy program,
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other than the open source strategies, everything is handled by another DG, by another people,
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they need to be educated basically, they need to be connected, they need to see what their
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colleagues are doing, this is basically how we try to channel through these kind of debates,
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connecting people, trying to bring in our positions, fighting for these positions, finding
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majorities for these positions ultimately, and making sure that there is ultimately a free software
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first policy in all of these files. That sounds like a lot of work. It is, but it's also to be honest,
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something where we do make progress, it's small steps, that's for sure, but we do these small steps,
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we try to be around, and hopefully we will very soon see major steps and major progress and
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have an independent, well, basically not independent, but a solo rent, and the administration that can
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control its technology. What's your feeling when you talk to MPs from the European Parliament?
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Is there more understanding of what free software is than, like, let's say, five years ago,
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we put in a lot of work and effort into this, or what's your personal
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point of view here when you talk to the MPs, do they understand the arguments or how do they act?
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I mean, first of all, it really depends on the group you look at, but also in general,
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I would say the level of knowledge is rising, so that's definitely for sure, but also you can see
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that in the last term, for example, we had the AI Act, we had the Cyber-Resilience Act,
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so we had some very, very important, but also prominent files where free software played a role
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in these files. We actively worked on that, and at the end of the term, I'd say many MPs
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knew about it, many MPs understood our take, and that's why they also amended accordingly
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to these files to make sure that free software is protected, or that there is a dedicated
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wording on this in those files, but also after the elections, the European Parliament
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was dramatically changed, not only by majorities, but also many of these, one could say,
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than experts left the parliament, so for many, we had to start from scratch, we had to start to
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build new relationships, this is also still ongoing, and in particular, if you look at files like
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procurement, for example, right, so people working on these files are not digital experts, they are
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experts for procurement, if you like, and if you look at procurement, we talk about chairs,
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we talk about cars, we talk about whatever can be procured, and digital just plays
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one role next to many, many, many others, so you can't expect that you find digital experts
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in the field of procurement, for example, so we are coming up with completely new files
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this term, so that means we are running into new, so to say, networks of decision makers
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that need to be educated, so I wouldn't say we need to start from scratch, and I wouldn't say we
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it's worse than five years ago, still we need to educate people a lot, but what I can see in
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all of these meetings is that there is an interest in this, and that they are willing to understand,
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and that they also see more and more the benefits, why one should invest in free software,
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but also on the other side, which might be equally important, I'd say, is that we can get rid
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of some myths more and more, right, so often we have seen or we still often see the
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argument around security, for example, right, so if the code is transparent, then it's an issue
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for security, for example, so this is sometimes some of these myths which we are confronted with,
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and then we can educate people and tell people that's basically the opposite, it's true,
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and by thus, I do believe that we, after this term, will have way more experts in Europe
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coming from the procurement sector, for example, but also from budget debates, that also do
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understand that there is not only a budget argument to go in the direction of free software,
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but also so ran into security argument around it, and it's good that they see it, that they
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understand it, and that they listen to it, and I also do believe that we can get closer and
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closer and closer to this free software, first policy by convincing these people how far we can get,
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that's difficult to say at the moment, also often we see that there are still many, many
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loopholes in all of these initiatives, strategies, papers, so this is something what we try to fix,
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also with some creative ways, one could say, but here I do believe this is something which we,
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what we need to challenge for a very long time is to fix loopholes in all of this,
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so the lobbyists on the other side are also doing their job, they also try to maintain their
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business model for their proprietary software, and it's basically a fight for majorities,
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but I do believe it's way better than a couple of years ago, and that we already made progress
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not only the cyber resilience act, but also fights before like the copyright directive,
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and also our takes on the open source strategy in 2020, for example, we can see progress,
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we can see that more and more people take care, still in particular in this term we are addressing
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completely new networks, they need to have the skills of the digital-to-decade policy program in
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order to understand what's ongoing and why to pick free software and not a proprietary one.
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Is there something that is really outstanding to you in this conversation?
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I mean the outstanding is maybe a bit difficult, but what we hear very often is this
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bi-European or made in Europe approach, and here it's a bit difficult to make them understand
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that in particular free software is something global, right, and that they do not have to fear,
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that they also do not have to fear, that a line of code is coming outside of Europe,
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which is then in our infrastructure, for example, some of these kind of myths we are trying to
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address here, and that we are at the moment really often confronted with, and so I do believe it
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won't help us a lot in order to achieve this digital sovereignty to replace big tech by a European
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proprietary vendor and one or come up with another vendor login, right, so that won't help us.
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This is something which we need to address, where we need to educate, where we need to explain
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decision-makers a lot, and this is probably one of the strongest narratives we have to counter
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these days is that this bi-European or made in Europe argument doesn't make that much sense
29:46.560 --> 29:53.680
if you talk about free software and that this should not be the criteria, but rather the criteria
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should be that the software you are using has the four freedoms to use, study, share and improve,
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and then in this case it doesn't matter that much where the code is coming from, but you need to
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have the freedoms, which is way more important than where the code is coming from, so this is basically
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something which I see quite often these days, and where we definitely have to make sure that we
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can counter this narrative in the field of software. All right, is there something our listeners
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can do directly now after listening to this podcast? I mean definitely, so there are
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since the digital decade policy program consultation will be closed when you listen to it,
30:37.520 --> 30:42.880
but as I said, there is still the ongoing consultation on the procurement reform. We also
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contribute it to this. You can, to the first consultation on procurement, you can use this as a
30:47.600 --> 30:52.800
blueprint in order to contribute to the impact assessment consultation. We also had a podcast
30:52.800 --> 31:00.480
recording on this where you can re-listen our takes on that one. There is the consultation on the
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European Union open source strategy where you can and should feedback, so this is definitely
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something what you can do. You can, whenever you run into decision makers, tell them about the
31:13.360 --> 31:19.840
benefits of the software, so help us with spreading the good news about the software, so this is also
31:19.840 --> 31:26.320
something which is super helpful. Use your social media channels to promote best practice,
31:26.320 --> 31:31.040
to promote our podcasts, for example, and ultimately, as also said in the beginning,
31:31.040 --> 31:37.520
you can join us as a supporter, for example, and help us that we can do our work. Go to conferences,
31:37.520 --> 31:43.920
spread the word, spread the good news, take part in these processes, listen to the podcast,
31:43.920 --> 31:52.400
so this is also something where we normally refer to ongoing activities where you can and might
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want to take part. So this is definitely, everything is helpful. Also, if you are a member states,
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it's super helpful. If you try to talk to your local and national decision makers,
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as said, often these initiatives in Europe are only happening because of the willingness of
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member states and the more member states we have around the more progress we can do. So this
32:18.240 --> 32:22.800
is definitely also helping if you are active in member states, so you don't have to go to Brussels
32:22.800 --> 32:29.440
to fight for a free software, you can also do this in your hometown. Yeah. I do have a person
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that I'm also sometimes in contact with decision makers. At the Congress, I received a postcard
32:36.400 --> 32:44.320
that said, thank you so much for your energy and your support of free software, and it was a
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very nice postcard that I received, and I have to be thinking that decision makers are also not all
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of them, all of them, because I mean, not everybody can be on the same page, but it's also very nice.
32:59.360 --> 33:05.200
Absolutely, yeah, this is very encouraging. Yeah, that's the word I was looking for. I found
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this was a very good story, and listeners, if you know any decision maker, maybe at the next
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Congress, you might receive such a postcard. So yeah, with this, I would say we put in all the links
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in the show notes, you find our feedback there, go through our feedback, take this as a blueprint,
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as Alex already proposed, and yeah, talk to your decision makers on a local level, on a member
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state level of the European Union, or also contact your MEPs in the European Parliament,
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and tell them how important free software is, and yeah, let us bring free software forward,
33:50.240 --> 33:55.120
and support us also with the nation, if you can, so we can do the work for you as well.
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Alex, do you have anything to add?
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No, no, do so.
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Thank you so much for taking us through the digital decade policy program.
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I mean, it's supposed to be running for the next decade, so let's see what's happening there.
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I'm quite sure you will follow up on it, right?
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Yes, yes, absolutely.
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Thank you for also doing this podcast, as you have said many times before.
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And yeah, thank you so much for being here.
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Thank you so much for your time.
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Thank you.
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Thank you, listeners, for listening to our software freedom podcast.
34:37.600 --> 34:42.160
If you liked this episode, please recommend it to your friends and rate it.
34:42.160 --> 34:47.040
Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance of software freedom,
34:47.680 --> 34:49.520
and its impact on our digital lives.
34:50.480 --> 34:54.320
This podcast is presented to you by the free software foundation, Europe.
34:55.120 --> 34:58.320
Yeah, a charity that works on promoting software freedom.
34:59.200 --> 35:03.760
If you like our work, please consider supporting us for the nation.
35:04.560 --> 35:09.360
You find more information under fsfe.org/donate.
35:09.360 --> 35:10.160
Thank you so much.
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Bye bye.
35:12.960 --> 35:14.720
Hi, my name is Eric Da Silva.
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How I got to fsafi is what's very passionate about digital rights.
35:19.520 --> 35:23.440
For the reason why I'm staying at fsafi, I've been staying around since my
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internship is because it's a very nice organization.
35:26.480 --> 35:33.840
It's for very kind people who are very committed to what we're doing and are very sensitive to
35:35.840 --> 35:38.240
the importance of political issues.
35:38.240 --> 35:40.480
But for human aspect, it's very important for me.
Back to the episode SFP#44