Transcript of SFP#11: REUSE Booster and our update on REUSE with Max Mehl
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WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:18.000 Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. 00:18.000 --> 00:22.000 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 00:22.000 --> 00:26.000 We are a charity that empowers users to control technology. 00:26.000 --> 00:31.000 I'm Bonnie Merring and our guest for today is my co-worker Max Meal. 00:31.000 --> 00:38.000 Max has been with the FSFE since 2011 and he started as a volunteer for the FSFE translation team. 00:38.000 --> 00:42.000 Afterwards he became my intern and now he is a staff member. 00:42.000 --> 00:52.000 Max is one of the FSFE program manager and co-ordinates initiatives in the areas of politics, public awareness and licensing. 00:52.000 --> 00:57.000 Max is also responsible for the EU's campaign. Hello Max. 00:57.000 --> 00:59.000 Hello Bonnie, great to be here. 00:59.000 --> 01:05.000 So Max you have been involved with Free Software for over 10 years now. 01:05.000 --> 01:10.000 What keeps you motivated and why do you think Free Software is so important? 01:10.000 --> 01:15.000 Well I think Free Software is one of the building blocks for a better society. 01:16.000 --> 01:23.000 With Free Software our society can become more fair, more free, transparent, social, sustainable. 01:23.000 --> 01:29.000 And in the end I would say it's a civil liberty that is still quite underestimated unfortunately. 01:29.000 --> 01:33.000 But that is so important for the next decades to come. 01:33.000 --> 01:40.000 And what also keeps you motivated is that Free Software is a highly interesting and rapidly evolving field. 01:40.000 --> 01:45.000 It's interconnected with civil society so what we ask the FSF to do. 01:45.000 --> 01:50.000 But also with technology, economy, politics, copyright law and so on. 01:50.000 --> 01:58.000 So that's a really interesting interconnection that still keeps me excited after already 10 years. 01:58.000 --> 02:06.000 Okay so you think it's important for our society that people like us work on Free Software? 02:07.000 --> 02:09.000 Yes definitely. I would say so. 02:09.000 --> 02:16.000 As I said, I think it's an underestimated field and underestimated civil liberty. 02:16.000 --> 02:22.000 And so yeah, I would say it's great that we have not only staff, so like you and I, 02:22.000 --> 02:31.000 but also volunteers, a community and people in the end on the street that care about this issue and work for it. 02:31.000 --> 02:37.000 Okay. So you have also been with the FSFE for 10 years now. 02:37.000 --> 02:44.000 And yeah, why do you like working for the FSFE? 02:44.000 --> 02:48.000 For one, because I can work every day for Free Software. 02:48.000 --> 02:52.000 And as I said before, that's something that I deeply care about. 02:52.000 --> 02:57.000 And I find the mission of the FSFE is so compelling. 02:57.000 --> 03:00.000 It's to empower people to control technology. 03:00.000 --> 03:07.000 And as I said, technology is everywhere and we need to be sovereign and be able to use this technology freely. 03:07.000 --> 03:11.000 So that it cannot restrict us, but rather empower us. 03:11.000 --> 03:15.000 And that's a statement that I share 100%. 03:15.000 --> 03:20.000 But with the FSFE specifically, I think it's essentially the people. 03:20.000 --> 03:28.000 Over the last 10 years, I've met so many volunteers and co-workers and people inside and outside of our community 03:28.000 --> 03:33.000 that enriched my life and that taught me new things, not only on the technical side, 03:33.000 --> 03:40.000 but also basically human interaction or points of view that I never thought about before. 03:40.000 --> 03:44.000 And this diversity really thrilled me. 03:44.000 --> 03:49.000 And in my day to day job, I would say I especially love the workshops and the conferences. 03:49.000 --> 03:55.000 Unfortunately, that's not so possible, has not been so possible in the recent years. 03:55.000 --> 04:03.000 But this exchange with interesting people and also the ability or the possibility to talk about the topics that I work on every day, 04:03.000 --> 04:07.000 that's amazing and that really keeps me motivated. 04:07.000 --> 04:12.000 And also the broad range of topics that I can work on. 04:12.000 --> 04:19.000 I mean, as an intern, I started with a lot of free software day, that today you, Bonnie, coordinate, or in this year. 04:19.000 --> 04:25.000 Then I went over to router freedom, which also now is more or less coordinated by my colleague Lukas 04:25.000 --> 04:31.000 and so many other activities up to reuse, which I have been taking care of in the last two or three years. 04:31.000 --> 04:36.000 So this broad range of topics, which is interconnected by this compelling mission, 04:36.000 --> 04:43.000 that's almost a privilege to work on something that you care about so deeply and to have the freedom to work on these topics. 04:43.000 --> 04:51.000 And yeah, that motivates me basically every day that I work to get out of bed and go to work actually. 04:51.000 --> 04:55.000 Do you have a favorite campaign that you have worked on? 04:55.000 --> 05:00.000 Oh, that's really hard. That's really hard. 05:00.000 --> 05:04.000 I mean, I love free software day as a great campaign. 05:04.000 --> 05:13.000 It's been my first campaign that I was able to lead as an intern, so that was basically one of my babies, although I didn't invent it. 05:13.000 --> 05:24.000 And so I think it's still the ultimate campaign because it's so positive and so much fun that everyone shares the love and appreciation 05:24.000 --> 05:28.000 to the developers that create free software that we profit from. 05:28.000 --> 05:32.000 I also think that router freedom is a great campaign that I mentioned. 05:32.000 --> 05:40.000 But I mean, there are so many different activities also in the FSFE that perhaps only minority of the FSFE community knows about. 05:40.000 --> 05:52.000 But that are so important because they're so complex and perhaps also so, especially on a political area, so challenging to work on because they develop over many years. 05:52.000 --> 06:01.000 We cry a lot of deep thought and self-motivation, but they have a great influence or a large influence on our lives. 06:01.000 --> 06:16.000 And therefore I wouldn't say that I have a favorite campaign, but I really like the diversity and but also the connection between all these campaigns that basically lead towards this empowering users to control technology. 06:16.000 --> 06:21.000 And yeah, that's just a great combination. 06:21.000 --> 06:29.000 Okay, and you have also worked on the reuse campaign for now quite a long time. 06:29.000 --> 06:37.000 You have joined this campaign while Carmen Bianca Barker has been already active in this campaign and worked on this campaign. 06:37.000 --> 06:49.000 Carmen has been with us in a previous podcast about Reyes, where she also explained what Reyes is about and yeah, how the reuse tool works. 06:49.000 --> 06:59.000 So anyway, I was also wondering if you could quickly summarize the reuse initiative for us and how the reuse tool works. 06:59.000 --> 07:04.000 Sure. So reuse is basically a set of best practices and tools. 07:04.000 --> 07:14.000 And it's there that people, mainly developers, can communicate the licensing or the licenses and the copyright of a project properly. 07:14.000 --> 07:21.000 So this is typically software, but it can also be data or art like images and so on. 07:21.000 --> 07:32.000 And the basic idea is that licenses, free software licenses and copyright is really hard, but also extremely important. 07:32.000 --> 07:43.000 I mean, for developers, for them, it's really important that they make sure under which conditions people can use and also reuse their software. 07:43.000 --> 07:46.000 And there are their work that they put into this. 07:46.000 --> 07:52.000 So it can also be reused by other developers, individual ones, but also by large corporations. 07:52.000 --> 08:02.000 And that happens thousands times a day that large corporations reuse existing free software, which is okay because that's one of the freedoms of free software. 08:02.000 --> 08:08.000 But the developers should make sure that they set the conditions for this reuse properly. 08:08.000 --> 08:16.000 Users, it's also important to know about licensing and copyright because they want to know whether something is actually free software. 08:16.000 --> 08:22.000 And what rights exactly they have. I mean, with free software, you always have the four freedoms. 08:22.000 --> 08:31.000 But depending on the license and the exact combination, things differ a little bit, which freedoms you have or how they exactly are manifested. 08:31.000 --> 08:36.000 And so reuse intends to make this as simple as possible. 08:36.000 --> 08:42.000 So we provide a lot of help resources, tools, and so on that have been developed since 2017. 08:42.000 --> 08:55.000 And yeah, the basic idea is that someone can have a look at a project, as a repository, and know for every single file inside of there, under which license and who's the copyright holder this file is. 08:55.000 --> 09:00.000 So that's basically the main idea of reuse these days. 09:00.000 --> 09:07.000 Okay, so it's about the little header in every code file telling us which license this code is under. 09:07.000 --> 09:16.000 Yeah, and the challenge there is that these best practices have already existed before, or at least the idea to put something in the file header. 09:16.000 --> 09:20.000 But I mean, there are occasions where you cannot just edit the file. 09:20.000 --> 09:27.000 I think of an image that you have there of an icon or any files that you cannot edit directly. 09:27.000 --> 09:31.000 How do you add information about copyright and licensing there? 09:31.000 --> 09:43.000 So reuse invented or developed to also together with other licensing compliance initiatives some ways, some clever ways how this can also be marked. 09:43.000 --> 09:56.000 How this is also then combined basically on the project scale that you can really have a project and know for sure that you have this information about licensing and copyright for every single file in this project. 09:56.000 --> 10:03.000 And that's basically the main contribution of reuse that we brought into this topic. 10:03.000 --> 10:13.000 Okay, so I have to bend some major updates or changes to reuse or the reuse tool in the last year. 10:13.000 --> 10:23.000 I wouldn't say in the last year because I'm to be honest, I'm really glad that we don't have to revolutionize things, but that we can incrementally improve reuse. 10:23.000 --> 10:31.000 And I think that's a great strength and a good sign that we don't have to bring major updates to fix things. 10:31.000 --> 10:33.000 But of course, we worked a lot on reuse. 10:33.000 --> 10:49.000 And on the, I would say, specifications of the model formal side, we prepared or currently are preparing some additional features to make things for developers and adopters of reuse even easier and more flexible. 10:50.000 --> 11:07.000 So this is still in progress because we need some more time and collaboration with other initiatives. So we want don't want to break things. We don't want to be incompatible with other initiatives with other best practices that are out there, but work together with basically the community, the compliance community. 11:07.000 --> 11:22.000 On the tooling side, so on the, yeah, for the API and the helper tool that we have, I would say this is was already very stable and we made it even more stable, fixed a lot of bugs, added some additional features. 11:22.000 --> 11:34.000 But most importantly, we, we gathered a larger community of users and also contributors. So it's really great to be active on this project because, yeah, there's a lot of things going on. 11:34.000 --> 11:43.000 But our main work was directed rather into directly helping people to understand and to adopt the reuse best practices. 11:43.000 --> 11:50.000 And I would say we were quite successful because we won a few prominent adopters of reuse, like for instance, the whole KDE community. 11:50.000 --> 12:08.000 You mentioned that the community around here reuse grew. How do you measure this? Do you measure this in projects or like in people committing code or, yeah, support agrees, how would you say that the community grew? 12:09.000 --> 12:19.000 That's a hard one. I mean, I mean, if you're asking about like the quantity, so how many projects are reuse compliant. 12:19.000 --> 12:27.000 That's hard because reuse doesn't require any registration and we don't have an obligatory web service. 12:27.000 --> 12:35.000 So so basically you can make your repository reuse compliant and we wouldn't know about it if we didn't search for it actively. 12:36.000 --> 12:44.000 But we have the set API. So basically we use as a service, you could say, and they're almost 600 projects registered already. 12:44.000 --> 12:51.000 So we know them for sure. And so, yeah, we have almost 600 projects there that are completely reuse compliant. 12:51.000 --> 13:00.000 We are aware of more than 100 projects from the next generation internet project. That's an EU funded project where the FSFE is in consortium partner. 13:00.000 --> 13:08.000 And we help then with licensing questions, legal questions, but also to become reuse compliant. 13:08.000 --> 13:17.000 And we know about a few well known projects like KDE, what I mentioned, which have implemented reuse as their licensing policy. 13:18.000 --> 13:28.000 So if there is a project and community members are asked to make them reuse compliant and they already made their KDE frameworks completely reuse compliant. 13:28.000 --> 13:36.000 That's basically the basis, the foundation of many of their tools. We have the Linux kernel, which is not fully reuse compliant. 13:36.000 --> 13:42.000 Unfortunately, because they have a really long history and a lot of licensing complexity with a lot of copyright holders. 13:42.000 --> 13:48.000 But from my last measurement, there were like 70% of the fights were fully reuse compliant. 13:48.000 --> 14:01.000 And we have the Corona tracing apps here in Germany, for which the back end, the front end, the Google or the Android and the iOS app, which are fully reuse compliant. 14:01.000 --> 14:10.000 So that's also a prominent adopter. So we see that there's some uptake in projects that adopt reuse. 14:10.000 --> 14:16.000 And we know that reuse is also part of a few companies in turn of policies. 14:16.000 --> 14:24.000 So when they they went up software and chip software that this is also then meant to be reuse compliant. 14:24.000 --> 14:38.000 So there might also be a smaller or even a huge number of non public enterprise products where reuse is basically part of because well if it's free software, depending on the license, they have to know what's inside of their product. 14:38.000 --> 14:41.000 So that's also where reuse comes into play. 14:41.000 --> 14:50.000 So I'd say we have easily over a thousand repositories being reuse compliant already most probably more. 14:50.000 --> 14:53.000 But as I said, I cannot tell for sure. 14:53.000 --> 15:02.000 And what really counts is I would say the support of the uptake by communities, by individual people, also by companies. 15:02.000 --> 15:06.000 And that definitely grew over the last month. 15:06.000 --> 15:09.000 What do you mean with the support? 15:09.000 --> 15:17.000 You mean positive feedback that you received from individuals or projects that use reuse that use reuse? 15:17.000 --> 15:21.000 And if yes, what was the nicest feedback you received? 15:21.000 --> 15:29.000 Oh, that's that's not easy. I mean, sometimes we get contacted directly by people or they write an open issue back reporter. 15:29.000 --> 15:34.000 And they say, of course, something is going not going well or we need some help or a new feature. 15:34.000 --> 15:41.000 But then they often add, well, thank you for this great tool. And it's been a great help or it's a really important initiatives or something like this. 15:41.000 --> 15:55.000 So that really that really counts. And I mean, we know from the I love free software day that appreciation is basically the currency that we want to get paid for at least the individual developers. 15:55.000 --> 16:03.000 And so that that's really great to have this individual feedback. But I think what really also counts is, as I said, the uptake by communities. 16:03.000 --> 16:16.000 So if people just write inside of their contribution guidelines of whatever, no matter the scale, that well, all future contributions should be reuse compliant or we want to be reuse compliant. 16:16.000 --> 16:25.000 And that really counts because it means that reuse is there and essentially also used in production and that's a great sign. 16:25.000 --> 16:36.000 Yeah, this is really positive. Now you have also launched the reuse booster. Could you explain to us what reuse booster is about? 16:36.000 --> 16:49.000 Yeah, so I mean, as I said, reuse is intended to be so easy to use and to adopt that also non legal professionals can adopt reuse for their projects on their own without any external help. 16:49.000 --> 17:03.000 But I already realized that there are some cases that are a little bit trickier perhaps because there are so many different files or more importantly, really complex history of maintainers of copyright holders and so on. 17:03.000 --> 17:15.000 Or because projects just want to have a helping hand because I think so, so copyright licensing that still has like the image of being so complex and so hard that no one can do it. 17:15.000 --> 17:26.000 And so for these cases, but also for many others, we offer or we started to reuse booster initiative or program in early June. 17:26.000 --> 17:34.000 And the idea is that free software projects can register with the reuse booster until the eighths of July. 17:34.000 --> 17:38.000 And we help them directly with becoming reuse compliant. 17:38.000 --> 17:43.000 And that means that we give a kickoff workshop for interested projects. 17:43.000 --> 17:52.000 So that we explain to them the basics of reuse, but also of licensing and copyright and the most prominent issues that they might have. 17:52.000 --> 18:02.000 And we also give them an individual assessment of their projects given by our legal experts since we already have some experience with this with the next generation internet project. 18:03.000 --> 18:07.000 So we have the experts in house so it would be great to help more projects. 18:07.000 --> 18:16.000 We give them some documentation, some helping documents and I would say most importantly, always people that they can ask if they have some questions. 18:16.000 --> 18:31.000 So we don't do the all the work for them, but we are there to help them and we give them guidelines because as I said, reuse is quite simple to adopt and I think there are only a few edge cases where you need some helping hand or some motivation or some guidance. 18:31.000 --> 18:39.000 And this is what reuse booster is about. So every project maintainer of a free software project is invited to register their project there. 18:39.000 --> 18:49.000 And also if you're not a developer, but you know a project that should be reuse compliant, please motivate them to register with the reuse booster. 18:49.000 --> 18:52.000 And yeah, we are happy to help them. 18:54.000 --> 19:00.000 Could you outline a bit more what kind of projects would be welcome to reuse booster, would it be only like. 19:00.000 --> 19:11.000 For example, there could be an individual programmer or developer who only does a small project or there could also be a large project which is developed by a whole community. 19:11.000 --> 19:15.000 So what kind of projects are welcome to the reuse booster. 19:16.000 --> 19:25.000 Reuse is meant to be used at any scale. So whether it's a really complex software suit or I don't know it a 10 files project. 19:25.000 --> 19:32.000 I would say if you have a project consisting of 10 files, you probably don't need a kick off workshop and all the individual assessment. 19:32.000 --> 19:38.000 But I mean, we all know or developers know that it might become quite complex within a short time frame. 19:39.000 --> 19:54.000 You just have to use an image, a picture icons, fonts or something else or style sheets from a third party and as soon as you did that, which is not bad, then you have a different copyright holder and perhaps also different license in your repository. 19:54.000 --> 20:08.000 And if you forgot or if you took over a maintenance ship for a project where this was not properly documented or where even someone edited the already existing licensing headers or so, then it becomes really complex. 20:08.000 --> 20:13.000 And this can happen even in a one person project or in a 200 person project. 20:13.000 --> 20:19.000 So yeah, everyone is welcome to register there. If they think they need help with becoming reuse compliant. 20:19.000 --> 20:27.000 And I mean, we we we love to have the people help the people and we already have this help documentation online on the websites on we use that software. 20:27.000 --> 20:34.000 So as long as we have the resources available, we don't limit our our help basically. 20:34.000 --> 20:46.000 But yeah, it can also be that if we receive a lot of applications or registrations that we also have to sort out a little bit, but yeah, we hope we won't have to do that. 20:46.000 --> 20:59.000 We have already talked about that it's sometimes a bit difficult to be reuse compliant. What would you say are the most typical challenges that projects meet in order to be reuse compliant. 20:59.000 --> 21:04.000 So I think as I said, proper licensing and copyright is is very important. 21:04.000 --> 21:14.000 And I think one of the burdens that we sometimes see is that people don't understand that or think that this is not so important or they just don't want to care about this. 21:14.000 --> 21:20.000 It just copy a license or copying file from a project they like and think, well, now it's good. 21:20.000 --> 21:28.000 And so, but as I said, this is really important to have this clear, especially if a project is a little bit more complex. 21:28.000 --> 21:38.000 So we already lower the threshold with with the reuse per se with the documentation, the tutorial, the FAQ. 21:38.000 --> 21:48.000 But it can still be quite time consuming and there also may arise some confusion also some hesitation towards dealing with licensing and copyright. 21:49.000 --> 21:58.000 So we thought it's really important to give this direct help opportunity for people like we did with an ex-generation internet projects. 21:58.000 --> 22:14.000 And the ideal case would then be that if we help these projects to become reuse compliant and understand more about copyright and licensing in general, that these maintainers, these persons, then have a little bit more experience about this topic and a little bit less fear of contact when it comes about free software licensing. 22:14.000 --> 22:22.000 And ideally, they are also then in the position to help others in their projects if they have a community, but perhaps also their colleagues, their friends and so on. 22:22.000 --> 22:34.000 And I think it has another good positive side effect that then other free software projects also see that it's possible to become reuse compliant even for large code basis and so on. 22:34.000 --> 22:46.000 So I think there are many different areas where reuse booster brings something new in there and it's also for us a nice challenge and a nice opportunity to get in contact with these projects directly. 22:47.000 --> 22:50.000 You have already mentioned the kickoff workshop. 22:50.000 --> 23:04.000 Now I was wondering how this kickoff workshop will look like. Will all the projects that sign up for the workshop be there in a room at the same time or is there individual support? How will it look like? 23:04.000 --> 23:20.000 Yeah, that depends a little bit on the registrations. I mean, if we, that's a little bit hard to estimate it since it could be that we get a large number of smaller or less complex projects and registered. 23:20.000 --> 23:39.000 So that means that we have a lot of maintainers, a lot of people there. So it might make sense to give two or three workshops. It can also be that we have to decide on supporting a fewer projects, but more complex projects, you know. 23:39.000 --> 23:49.000 And there we have less people, but mostly those people then have the same issues and we have perhaps only 30 participants or so whom we could still help or so. 23:49.000 --> 23:59.000 So it really depends a little bit on the registrations and the applications and the projects that sign up and then we perhaps have to decide how to deal with this. 23:59.000 --> 24:20.000 But the idea of this kickoff workshop is not that this explains everything because I don't think you have to completely understand free software licensing or free software copyright or copyright law to adopt reuse and to make clear under which conditions you distribute your free software. 24:20.000 --> 24:35.000 Because that's a so complicated field. What you have to know is basically the how to apply reuse, how to understand which licenses, which copyright holders do I have, what applications do I have, what's the idea of reuse and how do I apply it. 24:35.000 --> 24:44.000 And if you did that, you have a really good foundation for regarding copyright and licensing in your project. And that's basically what we want to achieve for the reuse. 24:44.000 --> 24:57.000 So that we have a more or less best practice, a gold standard for for these matters, that's really easy to reach. So where you don't have to be an legal expert to reach that. 24:57.000 --> 25:06.000 So it like it should make an easy entrance for everybody that wants to be reuse compliant. 25:06.000 --> 25:15.000 Exactly, exactly. Because as I said, I think still many people have a little bit of fear of contact. 25:15.000 --> 25:26.000 And I have to admit that before I was on this project because I was interested in reuse on licensing, I basically wanted to become part of the reuse project and take a role there. 25:26.000 --> 25:36.000 So before that, I also had this fear of contact. And I thought, well, this is so overly complex. I would never understand it because I didn't study, didn't have legal studies. 25:36.000 --> 25:53.000 But in the end, it's the fundamentals are quite easy to understand. And I think that's that's what reuses also there to lower the threshold and to make this complex field a little bit more tangible for people. 25:53.000 --> 26:13.000 So in regard to our time, I want to go over to not the last, but nearly the last question. So what are your next steps for reuse? And yeah, how could people help and what type of help is needed? 26:14.000 --> 26:26.000 I think we have to and we want to continue on all levels that we use as currently at. So we want to work on the helper tool, of course, and expand the features there. 26:26.000 --> 26:39.000 And also the wheels API and they're written in Python. So if your programmer coder, please, you're welcome to contribute there and write issue back reports feature requests and so on. 26:39.000 --> 26:49.000 And also, if people are interested in license compliance and have some more experience, we also have to work a little bit on the specification changes. 26:49.000 --> 27:03.000 As I said, so we want to make things a little bit easier, provide more flexibility and reuse in general, but also on reuse booster. So that's also a big next step where we want to directly help people. 27:03.000 --> 27:13.000 But most importantly, how people could help is to make their projects reuse compliant, follow these best practices. And if they are registered with the API. 27:13.000 --> 27:29.000 We use that software that helps us to understand who uses reuse, how many projects out there. And yeah, please also help other people to do the same to make their projects reuse compliance to sign up the API. 27:29.000 --> 27:36.000 So yeah, motivate them, help them. That's the biggest the best contributions that you could make. 27:36.000 --> 27:42.000 And what would you say were the biggest highlights in the project since the release of reuse? 27:42.000 --> 27:54.000 So we just have been started in 2017. So I would say the the biggest highlight was definitely the release of the version 3.0. So of the specification. 27:54.000 --> 28:00.000 That was a breakthrough because it solved so many issues that we've seen with a recent two versions. 28:00.000 --> 28:12.000 It simplified a lot of things. So we boiled everything down to three steps in reuse. And it's great to see that this is still the currently the current version of reuse. 28:12.000 --> 28:22.000 So what we have here is basically the foundation where or the tool and the API and all the other things are built upon. So that that was definitely in highlight. 28:22.000 --> 28:36.000 And a few other highlights were that we created an FAQ, which is still continuously growing. We have a tutorial that lowered the threshold enormously for people to get started with reuse. 28:36.000 --> 28:49.000 And we have to say an API that generates a bench that allows people to show that they are actually reused compliant and that also continuously checks whether repository is still reused compliant. 28:49.000 --> 28:58.000 So these were I would say the biggest highlights and I would say we as booster is another highlight or another step towards the users towards the developers. 28:58.000 --> 29:02.000 And I'm really excited for the next month to come. 29:03.000 --> 29:16.000 Me too. I'm very much looking forward to hear about all the positive outcome of reuse booster and yeah, and how we use booster and how to kick off workshop. 29:16.000 --> 29:20.000 I wish you lots of luck with this. Thank you. 29:20.000 --> 29:28.000 Now it's time for me to ask my last question. We have already talked about it and you have already mentioned that I love free software day. 29:28.000 --> 29:41.000 We obviously celebrate the I love free software day on the 14th of February and the users day to say thank you to free software developers and free software contributors. 29:41.000 --> 29:51.000 So and you also know that we do not want to say thank you to free software projects only once a year, but throughout the whole year. 29:51.000 --> 29:56.000 Yeah, so I would like to ask you whom you would like to say thank you to. 29:56.000 --> 30:07.000 Yeah, since we are already talking about reuse, I have of course, first of all, thank all contributors to the previous projects that contribute that time in their free time. 30:07.000 --> 30:23.000 So this starts with the initial start of reuse and the quite formal and a little bit positively borrowing specification, especially Carmen and also Mathia, but also the people that contribute to the tools are with the code and also back reports. 30:23.000 --> 30:35.000 People from our community like Florian Wilmo or Reinhard Müller or Niko Ricken, but also the many more that just open a pull request and contribute a function or fix a bug. 30:35.000 --> 30:45.000 That's so great. I mean, as I said, that's so motivating to boot up my laptop in the morning and see that there are two open pull requests from people I never met before. 30:45.000 --> 30:49.000 So really I owe a lot of appreciation and thanks to these people. 30:49.000 --> 31:01.000 But if I had to pick a non-effective e-projects, I have to say I'm always very pleased to use antenna port for podcasts like this without it. 31:01.000 --> 31:12.000 I wouldn't know what's going on in the world and osmant for maps and also navigation on my mobile phone because without it, I would be lost in the wild in the woods. 31:12.000 --> 31:19.000 Basically, so yeah, I use these apps almost daily and these are great free software projects that I would like to thank. 31:19.000 --> 31:23.000 Thank you, Max, for your time and yeah, goodbye. 31:23.000 --> 31:28.000 Yeah, thank you for the invitation and I love to be here again. Bye. 31:28.000 --> 31:35.000 This was the Software Freedom Podcast. If you liked this episode, please recommend it to your friends and rate it. 31:35.000 --> 31:38.000 Also subscribe to make sure you will get the next episode. 31:39.000 --> 31:43.000 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 31:43.000 --> 31:47.000 We are a charity that works on promoting software freedom. 31:47.000 --> 31:51.000 If you like our work, please consider supporting us with a donation. 31:51.000 --> 31:57.000 You find more information on the fsfe.org slash donate. Bye. 32:08.000 --> 32:10.000 Bye.