Transcript of SFP#16: Free Software in France with Hugo Roy
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WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:17.320 Welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. 00:17.320 --> 00:21.240 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 00:21.240 --> 00:26.520 We are a charity that empowers users to control technology and I am Bonnie Merring. 00:26.520 --> 00:29.560 Our guest for today's episode is Hugo Ra. 00:29.560 --> 00:34.800 Hugo works as a lawyer in Paris and is mainly active in IT law, data protection and 00:34.800 --> 00:36.480 free software licensing. 00:36.480 --> 00:42.440 Hugo is also a longtime volunteer of the FSFE since 2008. 00:42.440 --> 00:47.000 In his work for the FSFE, he has coordinated the France FSFE Group. 00:47.000 --> 00:53.160 He has joined the legal team and is still a member of the FSFE's legal team and he has 00:53.160 --> 00:56.480 also been part of the FSFE's translated team. 00:56.480 --> 01:00.680 So he was quite active in a lot of teams in the FSFE. 01:00.680 --> 01:06.880 Apart from the FSFE, Hugo has also been active in many other tech organizations like French 01:06.880 --> 01:11.120 data network or the data rights. 01:11.120 --> 01:12.120 Welcome to the podcast, Hugo. 01:12.120 --> 01:14.680 I'm very glad to have you here. 01:14.680 --> 01:16.680 Thank you, Bonnie. 01:16.680 --> 01:19.240 I do have a first question. 01:19.240 --> 01:26.440 The question is, what are your first thoughts associated with free software? 01:26.440 --> 01:35.520 What I think the first thoughts that I associated with free software were really about the impact 01:35.520 --> 01:38.480 that technology is having in our lives. 01:38.480 --> 01:45.040 So it was not focused about free software, but free software was more a response, a way 01:45.040 --> 01:52.600 of viewing the problem of the interaction between technology and society. 01:52.600 --> 01:57.680 And society becomes increasingly technological, software is everywhere. 01:57.680 --> 02:03.000 We all carry in our pockets a computing power that is equivalent to the computing power 02:03.000 --> 02:05.800 of mankind globally 50 years ago. 02:05.800 --> 02:09.320 So that's just crazy when you think about it. 02:09.320 --> 02:17.080 And so that's really where free software came from for me in terms of ideas. 02:17.480 --> 02:29.200 However, in practice, just a very, I think the first time I realized free software 02:29.200 --> 02:38.360 with a thing as a concept was when I looked at all the programs I was using to play around 02:38.360 --> 02:40.240 computers basically. 02:40.240 --> 02:45.160 And all these programs that were giving me the ability to play with technology, they 02:45.160 --> 02:47.040 were free software. 02:47.040 --> 02:52.360 And when I realized that they all shared that characteristics, I started to look into 02:52.360 --> 03:00.360 what free software was and that's what led me to the thinking of the increasing importance 03:00.360 --> 03:06.560 of technology in society and in everybody, every individual's lives. 03:06.560 --> 03:10.120 And you believe that should be all free software, right? 03:10.120 --> 03:16.760 No, I mean, I think free software is really a building block 03:16.760 --> 03:24.520 to general freedom and just enabling effective rights in our society. 03:24.520 --> 03:29.920 So I mean, there's no question for me that it's essential without free software. 03:29.920 --> 03:34.160 I mean, if we try to live in a society where free software doesn't exist, whereas there 03:34.160 --> 03:42.280 is no such concept, we would be in trouble because without free software, there's a very 03:42.280 --> 03:47.480 limited technical ability to check the on the power of the developers. 03:47.480 --> 03:53.320 And especially with proprietary software, you have a tendency for centralizing the 03:53.320 --> 03:57.000 power in the developers hired by a big company. 03:57.000 --> 04:02.960 And so free software has a response to that, it's more competition, it's more accountability 04:02.960 --> 04:10.040 for people providing software, whether it is to individuals or companies. 04:10.040 --> 04:15.560 And it's giving you know more ability for our society to check on what software is doing 04:15.560 --> 04:16.560 in our lives. 04:16.560 --> 04:18.640 So it's essential without it. 04:18.640 --> 04:24.040 We would not be where we are today, we would be in a much worse situation. 04:24.040 --> 04:29.280 And I say worse because obviously free software is essential, but it's not enough. 04:29.280 --> 04:37.560 And we need a lot more than that, unfortunately the situation is not so simple. 04:37.560 --> 04:42.920 Software is not the answer to everything, it's part of the answer. 04:42.920 --> 04:49.240 But if you look at the situation today in our society, obviously there's still a lot 04:49.240 --> 04:52.560 of work, a lot of work that must be done. 04:52.560 --> 05:00.960 Okay, quite some fascinating thoughts for the first thoughts about free software. 05:00.960 --> 05:06.040 How invited you to join the FSFE? 05:06.040 --> 05:16.360 I think I was looking at basically organizations that were active to defend free software, 05:16.360 --> 05:17.760 to push or free software. 05:17.760 --> 05:23.040 And I was looking at which organizations are the most effective and seem to be the most 05:23.040 --> 05:25.560 interesting work. 05:25.560 --> 05:30.800 And you know the, at the time, so this was around 2008, something like that. 05:30.800 --> 05:37.000 So free software for National Europe was only seven years old at the time, something 05:37.000 --> 05:38.000 like that. 05:38.000 --> 05:45.440 Which in 2008 seemed pretty established already. 05:45.440 --> 05:52.680 And FSFE was doing a lot of interesting work, but also was doing something unique at 05:52.680 --> 05:53.680 the time. 05:53.680 --> 05:59.360 It was getting involved in the lawsuit for the European Commission against Microsoft 05:59.360 --> 06:04.280 on the anti-trust lawsuits. 06:04.280 --> 06:10.880 And so basically the lawsuit was about how Microsoft was using the monopoly power that they 06:10.880 --> 06:17.440 had on the desktop and leveraging that power into the server market to push for companies 06:17.440 --> 06:21.320 to adopt Microsoft solutions in the server market. 06:21.320 --> 06:29.920 And one of the problem that free software was facing in that market was interoperability, 06:29.920 --> 06:34.760 which is a very easy way to say in English and very glad I chose that word right now. 06:34.760 --> 06:41.600 Anyway, interoperability that was of course very important to enable choice, competition 06:41.600 --> 06:44.960 and to prevent a lock-in. 06:44.960 --> 06:55.760 And Samba was a free software solution that was designed to technically give the ability 06:55.760 --> 07:04.000 of interoperability in the server space to fight against the lock-in for Microsoft. 07:04.000 --> 07:08.160 And free software for National Europe was there to support the Samba developer, the Samba 07:08.160 --> 07:13.640 project, and to support this project in Europe in the lawsuit against Microsoft. 07:13.640 --> 07:22.800 And that was a very important piece of work to support free software in this lawsuit. 07:22.800 --> 07:25.080 And this work, nobody else was doing it. 07:25.080 --> 07:27.520 And it was very effective. 07:27.520 --> 07:31.360 It's not very popular, it's a lawsuit and everything. 07:31.360 --> 07:37.440 But it was interesting to me to see this organization doing this very effective work, not for 07:37.440 --> 07:44.480 the spotlight, not for nobody will thank the lawyers for doing this work because it's 07:44.480 --> 07:48.560 like the CSAT means, if you do the work, nobody sees it, it's only if you don't do it, 07:48.560 --> 07:50.280 that people start complaining. 07:50.280 --> 07:57.280 But if he was doing that, and the quality of the work was really impressive to me. 07:57.280 --> 08:01.920 And that's what I thought, okay, that's where I want to put my energy. 08:01.920 --> 08:03.920 So he joined. 08:03.920 --> 08:09.240 Yeah, so I joined and anything is, you know, at the time I was quite young and I was studying 08:09.240 --> 08:15.120 political science, and I was as fairly out of high school, you know, but you already 08:15.120 --> 08:17.120 had the interest at law. 08:17.120 --> 08:23.840 Yes, yes, I had, but you know, my interest in law really came from free software because 08:23.840 --> 08:31.120 if you look at free software, if you look at the philosophy, basically the view of the 08:31.120 --> 08:35.280 problem of the world that free software gives you, you know, understanding the power of 08:35.280 --> 08:36.280 the developer. 08:36.280 --> 08:38.080 What is the power of the developer? 08:38.080 --> 08:43.840 It's not an immediate thing to understand for everyone because when you use your cell 08:43.840 --> 08:49.680 phone, when you use, I don't know, an email service, it's an enabler. 08:49.680 --> 08:55.640 It enables you as a user to do so many things that to think, okay, technology enables me 08:55.720 --> 09:02.080 to do things, but it may not only be doing that to understand that is not so obvious. 09:02.080 --> 09:08.120 And free software gives you the keys to understand that this ability that technology gives you 09:08.120 --> 09:14.360 is also a huge enabler of power for the one providing you this technology, designing this 09:14.360 --> 09:20.680 technology, making the choices of what you will be able to do and not be able to do technically. 09:20.680 --> 09:26.440 It's a huge power and when you mix that with software being used in government, with software 09:26.440 --> 09:32.680 being used in infrastructure, when you see that, you're like, okay, this is a huge responsibility 09:32.680 --> 09:37.560 and should it be just left to the developers or should it be more of a social and political 09:37.560 --> 09:41.800 problem that we should solve in a way and free software is a response to that. 09:41.800 --> 09:49.760 It gives you a solution, part of it at least and that's also what drew me to think, okay, 09:49.760 --> 09:52.160 what can the law do about these two? 09:52.160 --> 09:56.560 Because at the end of the day, free software is using the law, you know, copy the left software 09:56.560 --> 09:57.560 licensing. 09:57.560 --> 10:02.400 These are legal tools that the free software movement grabbed for this political purpose. 10:02.400 --> 10:09.640 And so thinking, okay, the law is also a tool that you can use to better regulate technology, 10:09.640 --> 10:15.120 to better protect user rights, to better think of the framework between civil rights for 10:15.120 --> 10:17.360 environmental freedoms and technology. 10:17.360 --> 10:24.440 So that's what led me to think about the law and, you know, again, in the legal field, 10:24.440 --> 10:26.200 you have so many things you can work on. 10:26.200 --> 10:34.280 I mean, I started on software licensing because I wanted to help the developers of free software 10:34.280 --> 10:40.040 to manage the legal issues to help them not be hurtled by the legal issues I wanted to 10:40.040 --> 10:41.640 enable them. 10:41.640 --> 10:46.320 And, you know, from there, I also started working more on privacy, take the protection, 10:46.320 --> 10:53.480 which is an important field in law, especially in Europe, that also gives you keys to understand 10:53.480 --> 11:00.560 the importance of computers and processing of personal data. 11:00.560 --> 11:05.840 And so, you know, that's what led me to study law and political science and then to become 11:05.840 --> 11:07.320 a lawyer. 11:07.320 --> 11:15.680 And FSCV was a huge enabler in that life for me because at FSCV, I was able to meet 11:15.680 --> 11:18.120 the people working on the antitrust lawsuit. 11:18.120 --> 11:24.400 I was able to meet the best software licensing lawyers in the world, you know, try to imagine 11:24.400 --> 11:32.960 I'm a 19 year old guy and I'm being said to Amsterdam by the FSCV to be part of organizing 11:32.960 --> 11:39.280 the most important software licensing conference in the world for open-source and free software. 11:39.280 --> 11:44.840 That's where you have the people from, of course, the NGOs, but also from the companies 11:44.840 --> 11:50.800 that are the biggest contributors to free software and the biggest founder for free software. 11:50.800 --> 11:56.080 That's where you, you know, you meet the people who draft the licensing that is used 11:56.080 --> 12:00.040 the GPL, the Apache, whatever, you name it. 12:00.040 --> 12:05.560 So you meet these guys and not only guys, fortunately, it's getting better at the time mostly 12:05.560 --> 12:08.560 guys. 12:08.560 --> 12:14.260 And so you meet this person and that's where the legal community, that's part of the 12:14.260 --> 12:20.200 legal community was thinking of, okay, giving the legal tools for free software to thrive. 12:20.200 --> 12:25.760 And I was able to meet these guys and to have wonderful discussions and a lot of help. 12:25.760 --> 12:30.760 So FSCV was just great in enabling me to go that down that road. 12:30.760 --> 12:35.200 Oh my God, quite a happy memory, or? 12:35.200 --> 12:37.520 Yeah, of course, and a lot of happy memory. 12:37.520 --> 12:41.440 I mean, the community, of course, when you start and you see the organization from the 12:41.440 --> 12:49.080 outside, it's not always obvious, especially in 2009 because, you know, I think we did 12:49.080 --> 12:54.320 a lot of work now to better communicate about the community behind FSCV, you know, but 12:54.320 --> 12:59.000 at the time, it was different, it was a different community, it was a different organization, 12:59.000 --> 13:02.200 but the community at FSCV is just great. 13:02.200 --> 13:09.080 I mean, I love it, it's really open and welcoming, it's really, and you have a lot of things 13:09.080 --> 13:10.080 you can do. 13:10.080 --> 13:14.520 I wanted to mention that earlier, but the first thing I did at FSCV before I was in 13:14.520 --> 13:20.040 intern, I joined the translators team because that's very easy to do if you know how to 13:20.040 --> 13:26.440 read and write in English and French, you joined the French translation team, and it's 13:26.440 --> 13:31.640 just great because you contribute, it's, it's, everybody is so thankful that you do that. 13:31.640 --> 13:37.440 Nobody sees the translation part as being non-important or minor, quite the contrary. 13:37.440 --> 13:42.040 We value it so much because we know it's important to get the message out there, and 13:42.040 --> 13:43.720 we know translation is not easy. 13:43.720 --> 13:47.960 It's super interesting if you're, if you're a linguistic nerd because I think it's 13:47.960 --> 13:52.480 very interesting to start looking into the languages, the differences, how they work, 13:52.480 --> 13:58.720 to understand, but it's, it's seen, I saw it as a small contribution to get started, but 13:58.720 --> 14:03.440 it's valued immensely, and you know, it's, you look at many people, I think a lot of 14:03.440 --> 14:11.080 people started at FSCV through the translation team because it's, it's very, you know, and 14:11.080 --> 14:15.120 it's so useful because when you start doing the translation, well, you also read a lot 14:15.120 --> 14:19.400 about the work that is being done, and you learn about what the FSCV is doing. 14:19.400 --> 14:23.520 And so it's, it's like a double win, you contribute, and you learn a lot. 14:23.520 --> 14:28.520 And actually when you translate, when I, when I translated the stuff on the FSCV website 14:28.520 --> 14:33.680 into French, I realized, okay, wow, they do so much great work, I mean, there's so much 14:33.680 --> 14:34.680 going on here. 14:34.680 --> 14:40.400 We saw little resources, I mean, you know, so that's, that's just the community that I was 14:40.400 --> 14:47.000 able to meet there is, yeah, a lot of very good memories, and the European vibe, you 14:47.000 --> 14:56.000 know, I'm meeting so many people from Germany, Sweden, Italy, Spain, Slovenia, you know, 14:56.000 --> 15:02.960 I mean, what else, Romania, when I was in intern, there was a person living, who was a 15:02.960 --> 15:09.840 Romanian, who was living in Spain and enjoying, and you know, this, you know, so many nationalities 15:09.840 --> 15:15.080 and communities, it's just, I mean, I love it, it's really, everybody, it's an international 15:15.080 --> 15:16.080 organization. 15:16.080 --> 15:17.080 It is, it is. 15:17.080 --> 15:18.080 Yeah. 15:18.080 --> 15:24.880 No, I do love this as well, I do get a very happy feeling from your happy feelings about 15:24.880 --> 15:25.880 the FSCV. 15:25.880 --> 15:26.880 Oh, yeah. 15:26.880 --> 15:27.880 Yeah. 15:27.880 --> 15:31.680 So it just made you stay with the FSCV for such a long time then, or? 15:31.680 --> 15:39.240 Yes, and you know, you look at the FSCV timeline, for instance, that Max put together, you 15:39.240 --> 15:47.120 see all the most important events that the FSCV, how it sees itself and all the actions. 15:47.120 --> 15:49.120 You look at the yearly report. 15:49.120 --> 15:54.640 These latest years I've been busy with, you know, with other things, with other organizations 15:54.640 --> 15:58.240 and obviously with work. 15:58.240 --> 16:04.480 And so, of course, I've done less in the latest years, but, you know, when I look at what 16:04.480 --> 16:08.880 other people are doing in FSCV, you know, it's just, I just feel very proud, even though 16:08.880 --> 16:13.520 it's not what I'm doing, I just feel very proud that I contributed at some point to that 16:13.520 --> 16:19.920 organization and to see that where it is today, it's just, yeah, it's just great to see 16:19.920 --> 16:20.920 that. 16:20.920 --> 16:22.640 Because, yeah, I've been a part of it. 16:22.640 --> 16:30.480 Yeah, and also just, you know, seeing that it's still, I think, doing things in the right 16:30.480 --> 16:38.760 direction, it's good that it's better at communicating what it's doing and, you know, 16:38.760 --> 16:45.800 there's so much to do in this area that, yeah, it's important that we keep on doing it. 16:45.800 --> 16:47.600 The mission is not accomplished yet. 16:47.600 --> 16:49.600 Okay. 16:49.600 --> 16:55.280 And in this regard, I would like to go over to my next question. 16:55.280 --> 17:01.960 We have already touched a bit that there's quite a legal framework around FSCV and I would 17:01.960 --> 17:09.480 love to get an introduction from you, how the sticker framework for FSCV is in France. 17:09.480 --> 17:17.320 So yeah, I know that in 2012, you had a circular eye roll. 17:17.320 --> 17:20.080 It's a French word and my French is not very good. 17:20.080 --> 17:24.520 I do speak it a bit, but yeah, so please excuse my pronunciation. 17:24.520 --> 17:25.520 Yeah, yeah. 17:25.520 --> 17:26.520 No, that's fine. 17:26.600 --> 17:33.200 Yeah, I always think Prime Minister at the time, something like that, oh, yeah. 17:33.200 --> 17:38.480 So yeah, I mean, the legal framework in France, so I mean, obviously the legal framework 17:38.480 --> 17:46.440 for developers, meaning copyright, patent, et cetera, is more or less, more or less the 17:46.440 --> 17:49.880 same in France as everywhere else in the European Union. 17:49.880 --> 17:52.280 So that's a good thing. 17:52.280 --> 18:00.720 However, I think on this side of things, France is maybe a bit lagging behind compared to 18:00.720 --> 18:07.000 Germany, for instance, if you look at the number of established decisions in courts in 18:07.000 --> 18:13.680 France, it's not as good and as well understood as it has been Germany, for instance. 18:13.680 --> 18:15.520 I didn't like the law enforcement. 18:15.520 --> 18:24.400 I mean, I mean, in civil courts, how to apply the law to enable free software to enforce 18:24.400 --> 18:30.560 software, free software license compliance for the judges to understand where the free 18:30.560 --> 18:35.720 software licenses are about, how they work, how they should be applied, the understanding 18:35.720 --> 18:41.240 in the community, it's, you know, it's not as good as maybe some other countries in 18:41.240 --> 18:45.920 the European Union, even though in theory, it's more or less the same. 18:45.920 --> 18:52.120 Now the other side of it also is the legal framework in terms of policy. 18:52.120 --> 18:58.280 So more in terms of what the French government and the French state, the official institutions 18:58.280 --> 19:07.880 are doing to, you know, go in favor of free software to, you know, to support this wonderful 19:07.880 --> 19:13.880 ecosystem that we have in France and in Europe of people doing the work to develop free 19:13.880 --> 19:15.280 software. 19:15.280 --> 19:23.880 In this area, France is doing a lot of positive steps, but it's maybe still lacking 19:23.880 --> 19:27.360 a clear political vision in favor of free software. 19:27.360 --> 19:34.600 It's getting there, your statements, you have more and more statements from officials who 19:34.600 --> 19:38.880 are going to support free software to say it's a good thing, and for sure the situation 19:38.880 --> 19:45.960 is much better now than 10 years ago, I mean, now we can find a, I don't know, an official 19:45.960 --> 19:51.360 Twitter account of some French government institution who may retreat the free software 19:51.360 --> 19:56.480 foundation Europe account and maybe say, okay, look at this, a campaign from the FSFE. 19:56.480 --> 19:59.880 So this is something we would not have 15 years ago. 19:59.880 --> 20:02.920 So you have a lot of positive things to look at. 20:02.920 --> 20:08.240 But I think it still lacks a bold political stance. 20:08.240 --> 20:09.240 It's not there yet. 20:09.240 --> 20:13.760 So I don't want to give a, you know, there's still a lot people can do. 20:13.760 --> 20:20.760 So if anyone who's listening to this wants to, you know, push, if a free software in 20:20.760 --> 20:27.000 French policy, I want to, you know, kick the owner's nest and yeah, there's still a lot 20:27.000 --> 20:28.680 that can be done. 20:28.680 --> 20:34.160 And in this area of the FSFE has not been as strong as it has been in other countries. 20:34.160 --> 20:40.320 So I think it needs, yeah, there's still a lot to be doing. 20:40.320 --> 20:46.960 And I think the political momentum in France is more in favor of free software now than 20:46.960 --> 20:48.280 it was before. 20:48.280 --> 20:54.360 So it's the perfect opportunity to see and to get work done. 20:55.080 --> 20:59.920 To be completely transparent, I'm not going to be the one doing it because, you know, 20:59.920 --> 21:07.240 I mean, the time of my life where, you know, free time is not something I had as much 21:07.240 --> 21:08.240 now as a party. 21:08.240 --> 21:10.720 It's very valuable to have some free time. 21:10.720 --> 21:11.720 Yeah. 21:11.720 --> 21:17.720 So, so, you know, yeah, I do understand quite good. 21:17.720 --> 21:25.480 What would be the ultimate goal for you that politics would do for free software? 21:25.480 --> 21:33.720 I will, I mean, I think, you know, there are a few things. 21:33.720 --> 21:41.200 For instance, I wish that the people in the ministries and in the political positions 21:41.200 --> 21:48.320 would stop buying the silly arguments that some of the French proprietary software industry 21:48.320 --> 21:53.120 or non-French proprietary software industry are pushing against the software. 21:53.120 --> 22:00.000 Like, I've heard so many ridiculous legal arguments, you know, used as excuses for not 22:00.000 --> 22:01.520 doing political stuff. 22:01.520 --> 22:08.240 Like an example, I, you can hear in terms of public procurement, you can hear arguments 22:08.240 --> 22:15.320 like, oh, no, we cannot favor free software because it would break equality in a public 22:15.320 --> 22:16.960 procurement process. 22:16.960 --> 22:25.040 And that is an argument that has been put forward, which is first, not in line with decisions 22:25.040 --> 22:29.640 from the conceded data, from the courts, which are the relevant, the relevant courts in 22:29.640 --> 22:30.880 that field. 22:30.880 --> 22:35.960 And second, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of what free software is about. 22:35.960 --> 22:39.320 Free software is not about a different technical solution. 22:39.320 --> 22:41.960 It's not about enforcing a business model. 22:41.960 --> 22:47.920 It's not about supporting a side of the industry against another side. 22:47.920 --> 22:53.080 It's completely stupid to look at it this way because if you look at proprietary software 22:53.080 --> 22:56.120 nowadays, they use turns of free software too. 22:56.120 --> 23:00.600 The proprietary software companies would not be there today without free software. 23:00.600 --> 23:01.600 They all use it. 23:02.080 --> 23:08.280 Microsoft today is one of the biggest contributors to free software, whether we like it or not, 23:08.280 --> 23:09.600 that's the reality. 23:09.600 --> 23:15.720 So, you know, when you have a politician buying the argument that they should not push 23:15.720 --> 23:21.960 too much in favor of free software because it would be supporting one side of the competition 23:21.960 --> 23:25.960 against the other, that's really not the way to look at it. 23:25.960 --> 23:30.520 It's just a fundamental misunderstanding because it's not about business models. 23:30.600 --> 23:32.120 No, it's not about technicality. 23:32.120 --> 23:34.480 It's about, yeah, it's a requirement. 23:34.480 --> 23:38.040 You can totally say that the software needs to do A, B and C. 23:38.040 --> 23:38.560 Exactly. 23:38.560 --> 23:40.560 That's totally different, right? 23:40.560 --> 23:47.920 You can say in your procurement that, okay, I want to buy a solution. 23:47.920 --> 23:53.520 I want to get services or software, you know, you define what you want, but when you define 23:53.520 --> 23:58.440 what you want, you have the technical requirements and you also have the legal requirements. 23:59.160 --> 24:05.040 In the legal requirements, if your requirement is, I want something that has been audited 24:05.040 --> 24:11.440 by the security community in this area or whatever, you know, you want the legal 24:11.440 --> 24:18.960 procurement could be, I want the ability to, you know, to have unlimited right of copy 24:18.960 --> 24:25.040 of the software because I want that in, that's how it would work for us. 24:25.600 --> 24:31.000 That could be legal requirements, which per se could exclude some other legal requirements, 24:31.000 --> 24:32.240 but that happens all the time. 24:32.240 --> 24:38.040 You know, you always have to set some legal requirements and then the set of framework 24:38.040 --> 24:39.040 for the software. 24:39.040 --> 24:40.040 Exactly. 24:40.040 --> 24:44.480 And free software can be, of course, you're not going to put a requirement that says, 24:44.480 --> 24:53.080 oh, I only want something that is using, I don't know, some, you give some name of 24:53.080 --> 24:57.320 company or whatever because these are a free software company, of course, you're not 24:57.320 --> 25:00.280 going to do that because it would be silly. 25:00.280 --> 25:06.800 No, but nothing prevents Microsoft from going to a public procurement and offer a free 25:06.800 --> 25:10.840 software solution for that procurement, nothing prevents them from doing that. 25:10.840 --> 25:15.480 And in reality, a lot of their offers in certain areas would be full of free software. 25:15.480 --> 25:19.120 So, you know, that's, it's a very complicated matter. 25:19.120 --> 25:21.920 I think you really have to edit it at some point. 25:21.920 --> 25:24.920 So maybe I can give you a shorter answer right now. 25:24.920 --> 25:25.920 Yes. 25:25.920 --> 25:26.920 Go ahead. 25:26.920 --> 25:33.360 But yeah, in public procurement, yeah, it's too complex. 25:33.360 --> 25:35.360 I don't think it works. 25:35.360 --> 25:36.360 It's okay. 25:36.360 --> 25:42.840 I did like your explanation quite a lot and yeah. 25:42.840 --> 25:48.880 And back to the situation of like the free software in France. 25:48.880 --> 25:55.280 And very, you think the League of Framework purpose of best heading in France, like we have 25:55.280 --> 26:03.280 all this organizations like Italy, for example, which somehow also connected to the government 26:03.280 --> 26:06.920 and yeah, it's doing also great work for free software. 26:06.920 --> 26:07.920 Yeah. 26:07.920 --> 26:18.360 I mean, in this area, let's say that we've been lucky that some very smart and some very, 26:18.360 --> 26:25.120 let's say dedicated individuals have been able to go at the right places in government 26:25.120 --> 26:28.920 at large to push for the message. 26:28.920 --> 26:36.240 And so today, you know, we have in organizations like et al-ab, we have the blue hats. 26:36.240 --> 26:45.800 So it's like the developers and hackers who are making the French public institutions 26:45.800 --> 26:52.800 more able to contribute to free software, they enable them to use free software effectively, 26:52.800 --> 26:54.560 contribute back, et cetera. 26:54.560 --> 26:57.120 So that's very important. 26:57.120 --> 27:05.160 And well, to be fair, there's a lot of good open data movement in France in the last 27:05.160 --> 27:06.160 years. 27:06.160 --> 27:09.320 There's been a lot of work in that area. 27:09.320 --> 27:17.880 You know, you have people who, for instance, sued to obtain the right to obtain the 27:17.880 --> 27:23.800 source code on software used for public decision making, things like that. 27:23.800 --> 27:33.440 So tremendous work that pushed the barrier back to give more room and more space to people 27:33.440 --> 27:36.720 who can't do free software in government. 27:36.720 --> 27:42.240 And that's where we are, a lot of steps that, you know, once about the time, we're getting 27:42.240 --> 27:43.240 there. 27:43.240 --> 27:49.200 And, you know, a lot of people who are doing good work there. 27:49.200 --> 27:50.200 Yeah. 27:50.200 --> 27:51.200 Hmm. 27:51.200 --> 27:52.200 Okay. 27:52.200 --> 27:57.680 And in general, what would your summary be about how the League of Framework situation 27:57.680 --> 27:59.720 of free software is? 27:59.720 --> 28:04.760 Like after we covered all those parts of it, we'd say it's a good standing for free 28:04.760 --> 28:09.720 software in France or we say, there's still a lot to improve. 28:09.720 --> 28:13.480 And what would those exact points be? 28:13.480 --> 28:21.440 I mean, for sure, it's better now than it was 10 years ago. 28:21.440 --> 28:27.840 A lot of positive signs that free software as a thing is not seen as some fringe idea. 28:27.840 --> 28:28.840 It's in the mainstream. 28:28.840 --> 28:31.160 That's very important. 28:31.160 --> 28:35.840 You have some small policies in favor of free software. 28:35.840 --> 28:40.560 You have some teams getting hired to support free software in the French sector, in the 28:40.560 --> 28:42.560 French public sector, etc. 28:42.560 --> 28:45.680 So, you know, a lot of improvements. 28:45.680 --> 28:53.400 But in the face of the challenge that free software is about, these are baby steps. 28:53.400 --> 28:54.400 It's welcome. 28:54.400 --> 28:56.280 We have to start somewhere. 28:56.280 --> 29:02.200 And we have to be patient at the end of the day, FSFE was founded in 2001. 29:02.200 --> 29:05.440 So 21 years ago, that's nothing. 29:05.440 --> 29:13.080 Even in terms of technology, it seems like a very long time because we're used to having 29:13.080 --> 29:16.640 a very fast-paced change in technology. 29:16.640 --> 29:23.160 But when you look at legal, when you look at policy, when you look at shifting the ideas 29:23.160 --> 29:30.080 in the ideology and the economy, you know, in all of these, you have a lot of power. 29:30.080 --> 29:35.280 You have a lot of money of people who would not want free software to succeed. 29:35.280 --> 29:39.320 And so it's a very, you have to be patient, you know? 29:39.320 --> 29:41.920 So I can't be pessimistic about it. 29:41.920 --> 29:43.520 I mean, baby steps are very good. 29:43.520 --> 29:46.120 It's much better than nothing. 29:46.120 --> 29:50.880 And you know, it's being patient. 29:50.880 --> 30:00.520 Of course, I think we lack, yeah, we lack a bold stance from policy and too many times 30:00.520 --> 30:10.480 I hear legal excuses being used to defend a status quo position. 30:10.480 --> 30:14.000 Some of the examples I've given are the public procurement where they would say, oh, no, 30:14.000 --> 30:19.440 we can't do that because it should be a distortion of competition where it's not. 30:20.440 --> 30:26.680 So that's one part missing and the other part, I think, is really a strategic vision for 30:26.680 --> 30:32.520 the IT economy that realized that free software is an asset and should be a core asset in the 30:32.520 --> 30:33.520 strategy. 30:33.520 --> 30:37.120 Today, it's not, and it's a bit, I think it's sad. 30:37.120 --> 30:38.120 Okay. 30:38.120 --> 30:39.120 Thank you very much. 30:39.120 --> 30:40.120 You're welcome. 30:40.120 --> 30:48.360 Dan, thank you very much for the introduction into the legal framework of Free Software 30:48.360 --> 30:50.800 in France. 30:50.800 --> 30:54.680 And I would like to close with my favorite question. 30:54.680 --> 31:00.400 As you probably know, we have to allow free software day every year on the 14th of February. 31:00.400 --> 31:03.880 I'm a huge fan of the campaign. 31:03.880 --> 31:08.600 And yeah, on this day, we encourage people to say thank you to Free Software Projects 31:08.600 --> 31:13.120 or to people who are working behind Free Software. 31:13.120 --> 31:19.320 And yeah, I would like to ask you which project you would like to say thank you to or to which 31:19.320 --> 31:26.440 people would like to say thank you to. 31:26.440 --> 31:30.040 I'm trying to think, for example, because, you know, we've been doing I Love Free Software 31:30.040 --> 31:36.760 for so many years now that I'm running out of, so I have to repeat myself now. 31:36.760 --> 31:40.080 So I'm a bit trying to find new ones. 31:40.080 --> 31:46.480 You know, I think, yeah, I think I will choose a Calix OS. 31:46.480 --> 31:55.600 So Calix OS is an Android based operating system for mobile computers, basically, that 31:55.600 --> 32:02.480 is built to give as much privacy to the user as possible. 32:02.480 --> 32:13.760 And I chose this project because, you know, it's all the bits that enable us to use Free Software 32:13.760 --> 32:19.000 and to have privacy at the same time and security. 32:19.000 --> 32:28.000 And of course, all of that without depending entirely on Google, you know, because I think 32:28.000 --> 32:31.960 it's very important that the work they're doing, because I mean, first, I don't know if 32:31.960 --> 32:40.400 you've tried Calix OS, but the installation setup is one of the most accessible and simple 32:40.400 --> 32:49.000 I've ever seen for a non, you know, for putting Android based operating system on your phone. 32:49.000 --> 32:52.200 You know, we've been doing that for some years now in the Fsefi, you know, helping people 32:52.200 --> 32:57.880 to take control of their data on their phone and on their mobile computers and to get 32:57.880 --> 33:04.560 rid of the Google sign of things and to replace it with a still Android based, but with Free Software 33:04.560 --> 33:06.240 on top of it. 33:06.240 --> 33:10.560 And you know, it was, you know, it was hard several years ago, you know, we had to have 33:10.560 --> 33:16.720 these parties, right, to help people get together and help each other do that, which was great 33:16.720 --> 33:21.320 to meet people, but at the same time, you know, we had to do that because it was scary, 33:21.320 --> 33:26.240 it was complex, complicated, people would be afraid to break their device, to avoid 33:26.240 --> 33:28.440 the rarity, et cetera. 33:28.440 --> 33:32.760 But Calix OS, wow, that was so easy, I just loved it. 33:32.760 --> 33:37.160 And it was so easy, not just to install it, but to have all these systems, you know, it 33:37.160 --> 33:44.080 comes with microG, it comes with Afterroid, you know, all these things are already integrated 33:44.080 --> 33:45.280 when you install it. 33:45.280 --> 33:50.160 And so, you know, it's really to use, it's, you know, it just works. 33:50.160 --> 33:54.480 And that's what we want, you know, as user who are very busy with other things, we may 33:54.480 --> 34:01.120 not want to spend an entire week and installing a new operating system, or whether I, I may 34:01.120 --> 34:06.640 be, if I want to install the operating system for the weekend, maybe I want to install some 34:06.640 --> 34:11.960 obscure operating system on some obscure device, and maybe not on one of the most important 34:11.960 --> 34:13.280 devices I have today. 34:13.280 --> 34:16.360 And so, Calix OS enabled me to do that. 34:16.360 --> 34:23.160 And, and you know, it's such a strategic area, the mobile device because it's such a 34:23.160 --> 34:31.000 central device in the lives of people in France and in our societies here. 34:31.000 --> 34:37.840 So yeah, I think, I think I owe it to them to, to, to say thank you. 34:37.840 --> 34:40.600 Thank you, you go for your drive. 34:40.600 --> 34:41.600 Thank you, Bonnie. 34:41.600 --> 34:42.600 Thank you very much for inviting me. 34:42.600 --> 34:45.560 It was nice to have you. 34:45.560 --> 34:47.480 This was the Software Freedom Podcast. 34:47.480 --> 34:51.040 If you liked this episode, please recommend it to your friends and rate it. 34:51.040 --> 34:54.600 Also, subscribe to make sure you will get the next episode. 34:54.600 --> 34:58.280 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 34:58.280 --> 35:02.000 We are a charity that works on promoting software freedom. 35:02.000 --> 35:05.640 If you like our work, please consider supporting us with our donation. 35:05.640 --> 35:10.240 You find more information on the FSFE.org slash donate. 35:10.240 --> 35:11.720 Bye.