Transcript of SFP#17: Citizen participation through Free Software with Petter Joelson
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WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:18.100 Welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. 00:18.100 --> 00:22.780 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe where a charity 00:22.780 --> 00:26.020 then it powers users to control technology. 00:26.020 --> 00:30.340 I'm Matthias Kirschner, the president of the Free Software Foundation Europe, and my 00:30.340 --> 00:34.040 today's guest is Peter Uelson. 00:34.040 --> 00:40.100 Peter is the project coordinator at a digital lab in Gothenburg, and I'm at Peter through 00:40.100 --> 00:46.840 an exchange program by the Goethe Institute in Sweden, so they match the digital lab and 00:46.840 --> 00:52.100 the FSFE and then cover the expenses that we could visit each other, and now Peter 00:52.100 --> 00:57.080 spent the last days with other staffers and myself here in our Berlin office and had 00:57.080 --> 01:01.480 time to learn from each other and think about some potential ways what we could do in 01:01.480 --> 01:03.080 future. 01:03.080 --> 01:07.600 And yes, I wanted to use this opportunity to talk with Peter about his work with Free 01:07.600 --> 01:12.240 Software, his experiences with Free Software, so welcome, Peter. 01:12.240 --> 01:14.560 Thank you so much, have a good day. 01:14.560 --> 01:21.160 So Peter, before we go into the other questions and about your work, my question would be how 01:21.160 --> 01:24.520 did you first encounter Free Software? 01:24.520 --> 01:32.000 Yeah, yeah, just thought about this recently, I actually, the first time I started using 01:32.000 --> 01:41.120 is I installed Linux on my computer around 2000, and it was after I'd seen Steve Ballmer, 01:41.120 --> 01:50.640 I think it was the former CEO or at least, I mean the boss of Microsoft, he did a keynote, 01:50.640 --> 01:56.600 he did a keynote speech on stage, I saw on TV, it was screaming and jumping up and down, 01:56.600 --> 02:04.680 and I was like, no, I'm not gonna use Microsoft anymore, and I haven't since, I've cheated 02:04.680 --> 02:11.800 with Apple, but I've never gone back to Microsoft, that's funny, I think you are the first person 02:11.800 --> 02:20.080 who tells me that the reason for them to use Linux or not use Microsoft was the keynote 02:20.080 --> 02:22.520 speech by Ballmer. 02:22.520 --> 02:32.760 Okay, and yeah, so now at DigiDim Lab, you work with a DigiDim, and we also covered that 02:32.760 --> 02:40.200 in our public money, public code brochure, and we wrote like, DigiDim is a participatory 02:40.200 --> 02:47.840 democracy framework software that allows citizen to debate attend meetings and create proposals 02:47.840 --> 02:53.680 with the goal of improving life in the city, but I'm quite sure that you could explain 02:53.680 --> 02:59.440 us a little bit more what it means in practice, what you can do with that citizen. 02:59.440 --> 03:12.560 Yeah, it's, I mean in practice is just a user-friendly web platform for setting up, like 03:12.560 --> 03:18.420 it's a participation process, mainly for mainly aimed at cities, but like with DigiDim 03:18.420 --> 03:29.760 Lab, we also work with some housing companies or, or, yeah, different like sections of cities 03:29.760 --> 03:30.760 and so on. 03:30.760 --> 03:39.040 So it's, so with, with Dacidim, you can, and you can in a sort of modular way design 03:39.040 --> 03:41.200 citizen process in different stages. 03:41.200 --> 03:48.800 So there might be like for us, we, we push, like, citizen participatory budgets a lot, 03:48.800 --> 03:57.960 and then you have different phases of, of the citizens are able to, to write suggestions 03:57.960 --> 04:06.320 on the platform, and then in the next step, someone, someone within the city is like going 04:06.320 --> 04:10.840 through the suggestions to see, oh, is this legal, how much would each suggestion cost 04:10.840 --> 04:15.880 and put a price tag on them and see if it's not, is it feasible, can we do this at all? 04:15.880 --> 04:23.240 And then the next step, the citizens can, can vote for the suggestions that they like, 04:23.240 --> 04:28.560 and that's how the, that's particularly part of the budget is done, distributed. 04:28.560 --> 04:36.480 And there are also like, after something is, like, decided on Dacidim, you can follow 04:36.480 --> 04:41.560 the process of implementation, which is a good thing for transparency also to see like, 04:41.560 --> 04:48.800 oh, oh, we voted to improve this park and now it's been done to like 50% and these 04:48.800 --> 04:51.480 other things that have been done and these things are left. 04:51.480 --> 05:00.840 So it's, yeah, so, so you can sort of have a participatory process from start to end, 05:00.840 --> 05:06.320 you know, in just a clear and user friendly way. 05:06.320 --> 05:13.160 So on, on, on what level is, is that use, so there are suggestions by citizens and like, 05:13.160 --> 05:21.320 is that then mainly like on a, on a city level or is it also used on a, on a higher level there? 05:21.320 --> 05:28.320 And I mean, it's, it's, it was developed by Barcelona, city of Barcelona, to start with. 05:28.320 --> 05:33.800 And it's being used in some, some regions and some national processes. 05:33.800 --> 05:40.800 And we, we were also involved in using it for something called the future of Europe conferences 05:41.680 --> 05:47.840 where they, they had the process of like citizen suggestions for the whole of EU where you can put 05:47.840 --> 05:52.480 in suggestions and there was a process around it. So it's, I mean, it's, it can easily scale and 05:54.160 --> 06:00.240 and I mean, we use it for like just smaller parts of the city, for example, space, but, 06:00.960 --> 06:05.600 but for Barcelona, I mean, it's a few million people. So it's, so it kind of scales in 06:05.920 --> 06:11.680 these different ways. I wouldn't use it for like a smaller association. I think that, like, that has to be like, 06:12.880 --> 06:23.520 yeah, on, on some kind of medium scale to be worth using. But other than that, you can go like, 06:23.520 --> 06:30.640 pretty far. But then I guess like, the most interesting things around citizen participation 06:30.720 --> 06:40.080 has happened on a city level for the last, last six to eight years and something like that. 06:41.600 --> 06:45.360 And with, with which public administrations did you work then in the past? 06:47.840 --> 06:58.320 Like, right now in Sweden, we have like six decedent platforms running for, for a couple of areas 06:58.320 --> 07:05.920 in Stockholm, Bootscheck and Jörg Holman. We have a city called Siktuna. We have a housing company 07:06.960 --> 07:15.680 or two, two housing companies. And also the tenants association use it a bit. So, and then, 07:15.680 --> 07:20.480 then in the past, we've also been involved in like international processes like this for the European 07:20.480 --> 07:32.560 Union. And we worked with New York and Chicago in a consortium of other companies like mainly 07:33.600 --> 07:38.560 French company called open source politics. We work with it not. 07:39.440 --> 07:45.040 How is, how is that now working? Because I mean, if I remember correctly, you started as a 07:45.040 --> 07:52.800 non-profit as a digital lab in Gothenburg. But I mean, meanwhile, when you talk about you have all 07:52.800 --> 08:01.600 those different cities and parts of cities and other projects you're working on, you also 08:01.600 --> 08:07.280 meanwhile have a cooperative there to organize like the economic part of this. But what other 08:07.280 --> 08:14.800 players do you have about Dicidim at Dicidim development? Like, when it comes from Barcelona, 08:14.800 --> 08:20.160 there are probably other people developing it from there. So, and then you said that there's 08:21.600 --> 08:29.200 company then in France. Who else is participating here? I think they built like really 08:29.200 --> 08:34.320 sort of interesting ecosystem around this. So, I mean, there's Barcelona, but they're also like, 08:34.800 --> 08:40.640 they can still contribute a lot, but also when other cities start using it, like recently, 08:40.640 --> 08:49.760 Helsinki in Finland, they've also been contributing back to the code. And then there are a lot 08:49.760 --> 08:56.560 of smaller cities, of course, that don't have the resources to contribute. So, I mean, it's a good 08:56.560 --> 09:03.200 sort of equalizing thing that the city has the resources they can put, they can put that into 09:03.200 --> 09:10.480 development and yeah, just general improvements of features. And then there are around 09:13.120 --> 09:23.280 30 sort of developing partners, which we are Dicidim lab, one of mainly like smaller companies, 09:23.280 --> 09:32.000 some might be not profits too, I'm not entirely sure, but most of them like small medium-sized 09:32.000 --> 09:39.600 companies that can work and do like local adjustments, because like for us, for example, 09:39.600 --> 09:46.000 we might need a special kind of login system for Sweden, or there's a certain way of doing post 09:46.000 --> 09:53.520 codes or whatever, so there's this kind of adjustment that makes sense to have a like at least 09:53.600 --> 10:04.080 company in the same country. So, you have this core of 30 organizations who are contributing 10:04.080 --> 10:09.120 on a regular basis to bring the software forward, and then around that you have 10:09.120 --> 10:16.240 then other contributors on a case-by-case basis, or when they have resources to participate with. 10:16.240 --> 10:21.440 Yeah, and I think that, I mean, I think it's an interesting model, and also the way that 10:22.400 --> 10:28.560 like Barcelona, and I know that like Madrid worked a lot like that, actually like taking 10:28.560 --> 10:36.560 a lot of input from the citizens, like how do we want this platform to improve. So let's sort of start 10:36.560 --> 10:44.000 like sort of citizens perspective all the time too, which I think is great. So can you use Dicidim 10:44.080 --> 10:51.680 to get new features for Dicidim? Yeah, it's funny to actually do this. They have something called 10:51.680 --> 10:58.160 the Meta Dicidim installation, and they use this for suggesting new features, or this. 11:00.160 --> 11:05.840 So you can comment and vote for suggesting new features. When you said before that, like for 11:05.840 --> 11:11.680 example, then it's also used in Helsinki, and they participated there. Does that mean that they 11:11.760 --> 11:17.040 Helsinki then actually had people from the public administrations themselves who contributed code, 11:17.840 --> 11:25.920 or other contributions? Or did they contract companies to do this? Oh, I'm not entirely sure, but 11:27.360 --> 11:36.480 yeah, I think they did both. I think they had some in-house work, and I mean, my impression is that 11:37.440 --> 11:44.960 that's it is a good model to have some kind of in-house work from the cities to actually succeed 11:44.960 --> 11:52.400 with these kind of things, like just also just to have someone to actually understand what is 11:52.400 --> 11:58.080 happening even though they don't do a lot of the development themselves, to have like the in-house 11:58.080 --> 12:03.600 sort of know-how about how to develop a platform and what kind of contractors to work and stuff 12:04.560 --> 12:10.080 I mean, that's one of the big advantages. I also often promote for a free software that you can 12:10.080 --> 12:16.720 use all kind of different models, and you can decide what kind of competency do we want with 12:16.720 --> 12:23.920 in-house? What of the of my infrastructure is so important that we try everything to get to 12:23.920 --> 12:30.240 developers of ourselves there, or at least people who understand this technology can therefore 12:30.320 --> 12:35.920 take smarter decisions on whom to contract and how much to pay for certain features. 12:36.960 --> 12:42.400 And in some other areas, you might say, well, not so important that we don't need someone directly 12:42.400 --> 12:47.440 involved with something else. It's okay, we want to have one person always following the 12:47.440 --> 12:54.240 development so that whatever happens, we don't have to stop letting people participate in our 12:54.320 --> 13:01.760 processes. Yeah, I think it kind of creates a continuity and it also makes it safer in that you 13:01.760 --> 13:07.440 know. I mean, that's also a thing I'm not relying on one particular provider with open source. 13:07.440 --> 13:13.440 There's a lot of these things that make it more stable. For these kind of city platforms, 13:13.440 --> 13:20.240 I mean, there's also always the risk that the progressive coalition of Barcelona is going to 13:20.240 --> 13:24.480 lose the next election, and then the next city government might not be as interested in 13:24.480 --> 13:32.000 platform as the previous one. So that's so I think like the way they've done it with having a 13:32.000 --> 13:39.680 sort of multi-stakeholder development process is clever that way. And it said also something from 13:39.680 --> 13:46.160 your experience that they are mainly then local providers, or is it also that people are interested, 13:46.160 --> 13:53.120 and there is not so many local providers yet to provide the services that you then from Sweden 13:53.120 --> 13:58.880 work with a public administration in some other European country, or how did that work? 13:58.880 --> 14:06.640 So now is it mainly Swedish administrations or organizations you then work with, or is that 14:06.640 --> 14:12.400 something which is easy for you to work with a public administration in Spain, for example. 14:13.360 --> 14:20.960 I mean, we've really enjoyed doing the international work here, but I think we've always had 14:20.960 --> 14:28.800 like someone on the ground like corporate wins and kind of local company or so on, because 14:30.960 --> 14:37.680 just to have the knowledge of the sort of pure like processes, how those things work on a political 14:37.680 --> 14:45.600 level and all of that, it's kind of, it's usually easier for someone with a local connection, 14:46.240 --> 14:52.000 but then there are other things that there are like, I mean, we've been doing trainings in the 14:52.000 --> 14:58.800 decedent platform and also like designing processes and how to combine decedent with physical 14:58.800 --> 15:04.800 meetings and reach out, ways of reaching out and all the things like that sort of general 15:04.800 --> 15:10.800 for every kind of process. I mean, a lot of the actual challenges, obviously some participation 15:10.800 --> 15:18.560 are the same, but the bureaucracy behind it might be different. You said before one of the success 15:18.560 --> 15:27.840 factors is that the city somehow has someone on their own or someone who they could trust with 15:27.840 --> 15:34.240 a very good connection to them to actually implement that. What are the other success factors for 15:34.240 --> 15:42.560 introducing a power-disappity platform for like a city? Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of 15:42.560 --> 15:48.480 challenges and I think the ones that succeed are those that actually realize that yeah, this is 15:48.480 --> 15:54.640 going to be a big task. This is not something that's just going to happen by itself. It's not enough 15:54.640 --> 16:03.440 to just, it's not enough to just install a platform. I mean, what should we do? Build a new park, 16:04.240 --> 16:11.680 close to the street. Yeah, successful. Yeah, so I mean, a lot of it is about trust and because 16:11.680 --> 16:18.160 you might have had like participatory processes in a past that weren't actually that participatory 16:18.160 --> 16:24.400 or nothing came out of it and then people lose trust in the process or like, especially if it's 16:25.040 --> 16:32.160 more sort of poorer communities, they might have this like bad experience from dealing with 16:32.160 --> 16:41.120 city officials in general. So I mean, outrage, communication and connecting to the local community 16:41.120 --> 16:47.200 and local organizations and leaders and things like that to build up and kind of trust in the process 16:47.200 --> 16:52.960 and maybe run it a couple of times so that people actually see that, oh, it had an impact like 16:52.960 --> 16:58.320 something actually happened this time. So yeah, so that's a part also that you meant that it's not 16:58.800 --> 17:04.960 let's make some suggestions, but that you can then also afterwards actually see this was then 17:04.960 --> 17:11.120 implemented and how it was implemented. So people see it's not just about online discussions. 17:11.120 --> 17:16.160 Yeah, and it's just it's not just one of these like suggesting boxes where you don't know where 17:16.880 --> 17:25.600 where it's going to end up or if it even will end up somewhere. I mean, I could imagine when some 17:26.560 --> 17:33.200 some people when they hear about that they should discuss with others on an online platform 17:33.200 --> 17:41.040 about ideas for their city. They might somehow think about some of their worst experiences they 17:41.040 --> 17:50.480 made on Facebook, Twitter and other such platforms. What was your experience there? I mean, 17:50.480 --> 17:57.680 when you see all those those huge platforms and how much they they try to moderate or 17:58.480 --> 18:03.440 yeah, they do the moderation there and they have lots of stuff doing that, but still 18:04.560 --> 18:09.760 from my perspective, it often doesn't work at all and you have I mean also from from the 18:09.760 --> 18:17.360 architecture of all of this it's it's built in a way that controversial things and that like 18:18.240 --> 18:27.520 hatred and other things are are empowered there and are spread more widely. How is that on 18:27.520 --> 18:31.840 on that seat and then how is the discussion happening there? Do you like when you introduce 18:31.840 --> 18:38.400 that, do you then need to get five people moderating the processes or what's your experience there? 18:39.840 --> 18:45.280 I mean, it's important to have a moderation, someone moderating discussion, but also like 18:46.080 --> 18:52.240 I mean a lot of it is designed and the way that like Twitter, Facebook is it's actually 18:52.240 --> 18:58.160 designed to create like maximum attention and and sort of divisions like this part of their 18:58.160 --> 19:06.960 business model, whereas with with decedim it's been it's been sort of consciously designed to have 19:07.920 --> 19:15.200 in to have a civil discussion and also be I mean the way that you need to be concrete in your 19:15.200 --> 19:24.080 suggestions like you can you know you're you can't just come and say like oh I think this is about 19:24.080 --> 19:31.280 this and that you need to be like oh how are we going to use this money to improve my local area? 19:32.080 --> 19:38.720 and I guess like the connection to your local area, I mean you don't want to destroy that 19:44.080 --> 19:50.000 I mean there might be stuff that you don't agree with but usually it's like oh should we put 19:50.000 --> 19:55.040 money into making a football pitch? No I'm not interested in sports, I want like cultural 19:55.440 --> 20:01.040 activities like that's that's more the kind of divisions you're going to get. But I mean I 20:01.040 --> 20:06.480 could imagine that some discussions also could get quite heated yeah for example if you think about 20:07.200 --> 20:14.080 should we close this street and just have this as like for for children playing or do we 20:14.080 --> 20:22.400 a transfer this street into a bicycle street? So I mean is that then still civilized or then 20:22.400 --> 20:31.280 other people getting into very heated discussions on the platforms? I mean from my experiences 20:32.080 --> 20:38.080 you should live very civil and like but I think there's also a balance to think about like I mean 20:38.080 --> 20:43.840 you do need places where people can vent issues that are important to them I mean you don't you don't 20:43.840 --> 20:52.160 only create like a hateful environment but you also need like areas of like constructive 20:52.160 --> 20:58.480 discussions and you need I think like one of the things that motivating me is that I think that 20:58.480 --> 21:05.360 this kind of I mean opening up to this kind of more constructive discussions I believe could be 21:05.360 --> 21:12.240 a way to to take like momentum away from these kind of parties that's just political parties 21:12.560 --> 21:22.640 just about like people being upset and like blaming immigrants or whatever I don't know I think 21:22.640 --> 21:30.000 there is a lot of like political energy that has to be directed in different in in more constructive 21:30.000 --> 21:38.240 ways and and I mean unfortunately social media is doing it the completely wrong way but 21:39.200 --> 21:45.280 we do need like places for for discussion and for discussing with people that we maybe 21:45.280 --> 21:52.560 not meet in our daily life so yeah so I'm still I mean that's the hopeful view of 21:53.600 --> 22:00.160 internet based discussion that you can still have a respectful discussion that you tolerate 22:00.160 --> 22:06.560 yeah person yeah it sounds utopian when you look at like how many things function today but I think 22:07.440 --> 22:16.560 I mean there is the least I can impossible one question I have is did you see any or where there any 22:18.400 --> 22:26.720 any processes for the tools where you saw that this discussion isn't working like that in this 22:26.720 --> 22:35.840 area and you have to change processes because you it's it's handled differently in this culture 22:35.920 --> 22:41.120 do you experience something like that when when you work with different region when you saw that 22:41.120 --> 22:45.520 like someone else was using the software and they said like that's not going to work for us we need 22:45.520 --> 22:53.200 another we need to redesign this part for us because that's not how how people interact in other in 22:53.200 --> 23:04.880 our region or in our city or yeah I mean like our our challenges often to get people to to participate 23:04.960 --> 23:16.400 more like I think I mean and and to sort of also try to adjust this to make it easy to 23:17.840 --> 23:24.080 to make a suggestion without creating an account for example or or like find ways to where you can 23:24.080 --> 23:31.600 put down your suggestions easily on just a tablet or something in the street and yeah those kind of 23:31.680 --> 23:41.840 leveraging those kind of pressures I think like for some of some of this came more natural in Spain 23:41.840 --> 23:47.360 where they where it's I mean the platform and the people behind it it came out of this social 23:47.360 --> 23:54.560 movement where there was like a big consensus on we want more democracy we want more transparency 23:55.280 --> 24:03.840 and yeah so the engagement was already there anyway like so you say that when you go to the 24:03.840 --> 24:12.480 north of Sweden then you can already be happy when you get a yeah yeah exactly okay yeah 24:14.480 --> 24:22.480 and but I mean one one thing for me then is of like what what are some nice outcomes you you saw 24:22.560 --> 24:28.800 there and why you think it's it's worth participating there I mean do you have two or three examples 24:28.800 --> 24:36.720 what what came up in an inner process which was used on the with that CDM and then the city or the 24:36.720 --> 24:44.640 region they they had something I thought like I really liked that yeah and yeah what have we got 24:44.640 --> 24:51.120 I mean I know like on on a bigger scale in when I've done this in Madrid it's been like both 24:51.200 --> 25:00.000 stuff like having a better coordinated system for the local transports you can use the same card 25:00.000 --> 25:04.080 for everything within the city which you couldn't before that was one of the suggestions come up 25:04.080 --> 25:12.880 and another thing was like in a more major to have to make like Madrid carbon neutral in in 20 25:12.880 --> 25:19.360 years so they've started to and that was actually like decided on the on the digital platform 25:19.440 --> 25:24.960 and they've started to make measurements for it to happen now Madrid does turn like 25:25.840 --> 25:32.560 have a right wing okay government at the moment so that's kind of hold to the process a bit but 25:32.560 --> 25:38.800 yeah there was like some some really interesting like major decisions coming out of of their 25:39.600 --> 25:47.120 local of the digital platform and the process around it for for our part is more the kind of 25:47.120 --> 25:54.480 stuff that we do for housing associations or local areas is more like yeah let's do this this 25:54.480 --> 25:59.200 cultural trade or let's improve this football pitch or whatever but I mean it's still good stuff 26:00.320 --> 26:06.560 it gets people a better connection to their area so often the small things which might have a 26:07.280 --> 26:17.280 improvement for for life yeah hopefully oh okay then my last question about this it 26:17.280 --> 26:27.680 would be like what larger challenges between like parts of getting citizen to participate in 26:27.680 --> 26:33.600 their what what challenges do you see in general for the for the platform itself in comparison to 26:33.600 --> 26:42.480 the proprietary environment around which is probably also trying to get some some parts there 26:44.640 --> 26:49.920 yeah I think I mean I think there like things to be concerned about and it's I mean it's 26:49.920 --> 26:58.400 extremely clear how different the just the business model around the proprietary software is 26:58.480 --> 27:07.360 in Sweden like from like the stuff that I know it's so different like you almost always has this 27:07.360 --> 27:13.840 kind of monopoly situation for each kind of platform like there are like two companies that 27:14.640 --> 27:18.720 work together and make all the school platforms for Sweden and there was lots of 27:21.680 --> 27:26.240 attention around this these guys in Stockholm were made their own open source platform but 27:26.240 --> 27:32.000 so yeah so you have yeah because it's a small market and there's always there's some 27:32.000 --> 27:39.840 and there's like an instant monopoly situation in an every kind of platform and yeah so my I mean 27:39.840 --> 27:46.480 my concern would be that you would get this in sits and participation too or that I could have 27:46.480 --> 27:51.600 a company that create maybe I shouldn't give them the idea but it's probably not listening 27:51.680 --> 27:57.680 but say that they have a more sort of general platform for local authorities and then they just 27:57.680 --> 28:05.600 make like the participation thing a plug-in so so it's easy to make it really easy for the local 28:05.600 --> 28:12.640 authorities to start using this and things like this I mean whereas like with the open source 28:12.640 --> 28:17.760 community we're a part of it's there's a natural cooperation between different companies different 28:17.760 --> 28:25.680 cities so yeah I mean there's that on the other hand I mean I think like sits and participation 28:25.680 --> 28:35.760 is a good example of I mean the advantages of free software and like because it's I mean it's 28:35.760 --> 28:41.920 crucial that you can control what's actually happening as no one is manipulating the votes for 28:41.920 --> 28:49.440 example and things like that and also because it it needs to be a platform that is like widely adopted 28:49.440 --> 28:57.840 by as many people as possible the user interface and the user friendliness is super important so 29:00.160 --> 29:09.440 so for us I mean even besides all the other points with free software it was so obvious that 29:10.000 --> 29:17.600 that platforms like Destiny for example where Barcelona's already put in a lot of resources 29:17.600 --> 29:25.200 into a platform they like weigh ahead of every proprietary platform just from a design perspective 29:25.200 --> 29:34.640 so yeah so I mean there are tons of advantages it's just like the awareness about this 29:34.720 --> 29:43.280 on a city level in small cities soft not there well let's see when people are listening 29:43.280 --> 29:48.880 and they'll tell us what free software tools are already out there maybe that will make a difference 29:51.120 --> 29:59.840 so we have to come to an end now but there's one question I'm asking every person whom I have as a 29:59.840 --> 30:08.240 guest in our podcast and that is if there are any free software projects individuals out there 30:08.240 --> 30:17.600 whom you would like to thank oh I mean I'm happy about the people who started this team 30:19.760 --> 30:25.680 I maybe I should I worked with the Drupal for maybe eight years and made a living from that so thank 30:25.760 --> 30:37.280 you to those people too yeah the console platform environment rate city environment rate 30:37.280 --> 30:45.040 so it's also great so that's my main ones I think thank you Dan 30:45.840 --> 30:52.800 Peter thank you very much for being here with me thank you so much and yes this was this episode 30:52.880 --> 30:58.000 of the software freedom podcast the podcast is brought to you by the free software foundation europe 30:58.800 --> 31:03.760 if you like the episode please subscribe to the podcast recommended to your friends 31:04.480 --> 31:09.440 and then we will see each other again at the next episode bye bye 31:22.800 --> 31:25.280 you