Transcript of SFP#18: IT-Security from a cryptographer's point of view with Cryptie
This is a transcript created with the Free Software tool Whisper. For more information and feedback reach out to podcast@fsfe.org
WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:17.160 Welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. 00:17.160 --> 00:21.240 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 00:21.240 --> 00:24.760 We are a charity that empowers users to control technology. 00:24.760 --> 00:30.640 I'm Bonnie Mering, and our guest for today's podcast is Amandine Jambert, also known as 00:30.640 --> 00:31.640 Crypti. 00:31.640 --> 00:37.880 Crypti has been using Free Software for nearly 20 years now, and she has been a volunteer 00:37.880 --> 00:42.640 for the FSFE for exactly 10 years. 00:42.640 --> 00:49.240 Crypti used to be a cryptographer, I think that's where the name came from, and now she is 00:49.240 --> 00:50.840 a privacy specialist. 00:50.840 --> 00:54.520 Welcome, Crypti, to the podcast, I'm very glad to have you here. 00:54.520 --> 00:56.520 Thank you very much. 00:56.520 --> 01:00.960 First of all, I do have an open or free question. 01:00.960 --> 01:06.440 What are your first thoughts when you're here to term Free Software? 01:06.440 --> 01:12.440 I didn't know what to do it, so I was like, I think the classical, what do you mean by 01:12.440 --> 01:13.440 free? 01:13.440 --> 01:20.400 Like, free, free, or free, free, so I think it was my first, you know, thing. 01:20.400 --> 01:25.280 But hopefully I knew it in French, and so someone just said to me, it's a logistical 01:25.280 --> 01:33.040 leap, and so it's like, okay, I know what it is, so it's okay, it's good, and in French 01:33.040 --> 01:40.400 we use logistical leap, and so you already have the freedom in it, so then you just have 01:40.400 --> 01:43.720 to understand which freedom you have, and that's nice. 01:43.720 --> 01:47.920 Okay, thank you very much. 01:47.920 --> 01:52.880 And before we dive into the topic of the podcast, which will be all about cryptography and 01:52.880 --> 01:58.480 IT security, I would like to know how you got involved with the FSFE, because it's quite 01:58.480 --> 02:00.920 a long time now. 02:00.920 --> 02:09.000 In fact, I ended up on the FSCV website, and I was reading different stuff, and there 02:09.000 --> 02:16.560 was this I love free software campaign, so it's just the best campaign on earth, and what 02:16.560 --> 02:22.720 it isn't translated into French, and like a lot of the website was in French, but not 02:22.720 --> 02:26.280 this campaign, and it was like, no, that's just not possible. 02:26.280 --> 02:31.360 And there was this link on the bottom of the website saying, hey, if you want to translate 02:31.360 --> 02:37.560 it, you have to do it, see this way, and so on, and so I sent it on email, and I said, 02:37.560 --> 02:43.360 hey, I would like to translate, so I love free software campaign, and some nice people 02:43.360 --> 02:48.360 on Twitter, since it was GitHub, and yeah, never left. 02:48.360 --> 02:53.280 Okay, so, and how did you end up on the FSFE's website? 02:53.280 --> 02:54.280 Undesley? 02:54.280 --> 02:55.280 No idea. 02:55.280 --> 02:56.280 No idea. 02:56.280 --> 02:57.280 No idea. 02:57.280 --> 03:03.360 I was already a like a denominator for the FSFE at that time, so I don't know if I was looking 03:03.360 --> 03:09.960 for something, you know, looking for the FSFE website and ended up on the FSFE one, or 03:09.960 --> 03:14.800 if I was looking for an answer to a question, I don't know, and I just discovered that 03:14.800 --> 03:21.520 a, we have an European version of the FSFE, like, you know, I didn't know yet, you know, 03:21.520 --> 03:26.200 how connected or not connected there, how separated there, and so on and so on, but it 03:26.200 --> 03:29.040 was like, you know, a good start, and yeah. 03:29.040 --> 03:30.040 Very nice. 03:30.040 --> 03:36.040 I'm glad you ended up on the website, and I'm very glad you joined the translator's team. 03:36.040 --> 03:37.040 Okay. 03:37.040 --> 03:41.360 So let's go over to the topic, if that's all right with you. 03:41.360 --> 03:44.800 My first question is, what does a cryptographer have to do? 03:44.800 --> 03:45.800 Okay. 03:45.800 --> 03:54.960 So, I initially was a kind of cryptographer who designed algorithm, and so my specialty was 03:54.960 --> 03:57.600 designing protocol for privacy. 03:57.600 --> 04:05.960 So for example, one of the kind of stuff I designed was what we call a sensible signature. 04:05.960 --> 04:13.520 So it's, it's like, I will sign something, and you will, I will be able to say maybe 04:13.520 --> 04:18.960 like, bunny, you will be able to change some parts of what I signed, and the signature 04:18.960 --> 04:25.920 will be still a correct signature of me, and everything, thing will be fine, but if there 04:25.920 --> 04:29.960 is a problem, we'll be able to say, no, since that wasn't the original money, it was 04:29.960 --> 04:34.680 a correction from bunny, and so that's one of the kind of thing I did, so that's kind 04:34.680 --> 04:41.840 of signature, but you can use this kind of thing in a more like global privacy way. 04:41.840 --> 04:47.080 So you have a lot of very nice cryptography tools that exist, and you can, for example, 04:47.080 --> 04:54.240 in choose, I don't know, I'm able to prove you that I am a certain age without giving 04:54.240 --> 05:03.540 you my nine-post date, or I can prove you that I know, I'm a woman, I'm French, I'm 05:03.540 --> 05:08.980 any attribute, or any information about these attributes, and with a minimum information, 05:08.980 --> 05:10.820 and also a scan of things, you know. 05:10.820 --> 05:18.940 So like private information, or any information that is signed, then it can be like traceback 05:18.940 --> 05:19.940 to you. 05:19.940 --> 05:26.860 No, it's, it's even nice on the dots, it's, it's won't be, it's more that I can mathematically 05:26.860 --> 05:32.340 prove something to someone, and it will just, you know, I will be able to prove them 05:32.340 --> 05:39.220 just the answer to a question without giving them any additional information. 05:39.220 --> 05:41.420 That's the cryptographic idea. 05:41.420 --> 05:44.180 You can apply it to anything, but that's the idea. 05:44.180 --> 05:54.140 For example, okay, so we are in a nice place here in a university, and so we have a room 05:54.140 --> 05:55.500 for this podcast. 05:55.500 --> 06:02.300 So imagine I want to prove you that I have the key for the drawer here, which is not 06:02.300 --> 06:04.900 the case, but imagine it's the case, okay? 06:04.900 --> 06:05.900 Yeah, yeah. 06:05.900 --> 06:10.940 Then I can show you the key, okay, that won't be zero knowledge stuff. 06:10.940 --> 06:11.940 Okay. 06:11.940 --> 06:13.940 But how do I know this is the key for the room? 06:13.940 --> 06:15.460 Yeah, so that won't work. 06:15.460 --> 06:20.180 I don't want you to show me the key, because I don't want you to be able to copy it, 06:20.220 --> 06:25.660 I don't know, maybe you're, you know, I don't know, still my computer, but I don't know. 06:25.660 --> 06:31.020 But I can prove you that I have the key just telling you, okay, close your eyes, and I close 06:31.020 --> 06:35.940 the door, okay, I come back at the table, and then you can check and see that the door 06:35.940 --> 06:38.100 is closed, okay? 06:38.100 --> 06:44.100 So I never give you any more information than to fact that I am able to close the door. 06:44.100 --> 06:45.100 Yeah. 06:45.100 --> 06:46.500 And so that's the zero knowledge. 06:46.700 --> 06:53.860 It suffices that I am able to prove you something without giving the information away. 06:53.860 --> 06:54.860 Yes. 06:54.860 --> 07:01.260 Okay, okay, I do think I understood it, we've worked on this, because this will be the 07:01.260 --> 07:04.100 base of our podcast for today. 07:04.100 --> 07:11.180 And now we have covered what cryptography is, and what is a privacy specialist? 07:11.180 --> 07:20.980 So cryptography is, you know, it's the art of mathematics to ensure that you can, you 07:20.980 --> 07:25.860 know, ensure confidentiality or ensures that you can identify something and so on and so on. 07:25.860 --> 07:32.020 But it doesn't mean to apply it to something in particular, so you can, you know, use it 07:32.020 --> 07:43.820 for cybersecurity in general, but you can also use it to protect as a privacy of individual. 07:43.820 --> 07:51.820 So that was initially what I did during my PhD, so I was playing to privacy, and now I widened 07:51.820 --> 07:52.820 the part of privacy. 07:52.820 --> 08:01.580 I steal, I'm looking at a little bit of crypto stuff, but I also, I'm doing like IT 08:01.580 --> 08:11.060 security stuff or looking at how, you know, how you can apply also a privacy law we have 08:11.060 --> 08:20.300 in the EU to different technology, so maybe like in any technology, you can name it, and 08:20.300 --> 08:26.140 then the question is how do you, how do you ensure that all the privacy law are correctly 08:26.140 --> 08:32.820 applied using this technology, because the law is supposed to be neutral, and so it's 08:32.820 --> 08:39.980 about protecting the data from people and making sure that the law is correctly enforced. 08:39.980 --> 08:40.980 Yeah, yeah. 08:40.980 --> 08:46.220 So it's also something with law in it and not only with cryptography anymore. 08:46.220 --> 08:47.220 Yeah, exactly. 08:47.220 --> 08:51.660 Now I want to like, in between both words. 08:51.660 --> 08:53.660 And how do you find it to be in between? 08:54.220 --> 08:55.220 That's nice. 08:55.220 --> 08:56.220 Yes, yeah. 08:56.220 --> 09:00.780 I mean, cryptographer are already like, if you ask a computer scientist, he will tell you 09:00.780 --> 09:02.180 that we are mathematician. 09:02.180 --> 09:05.460 If you ask mathematician, we say, oh, no way, there are computer scientists. 09:05.460 --> 09:10.500 So now it's just like, no, it's another in between innovation. 09:10.500 --> 09:15.100 And in fact, when you are thinking free software, it's also something that is in between 09:15.100 --> 09:21.020 like your, you know, how do you mean, but all the time it's like we are speaking about 09:21.020 --> 09:26.940 low, and we are speaking about ethic, and we are speaking about computer science. 09:26.940 --> 09:32.780 So we also are, you know, like in between technical and legal software at the time. 09:32.780 --> 09:33.780 Yeah. 09:33.780 --> 09:35.780 Yeah, no, that's the true thought. 09:35.780 --> 09:39.700 I'm talking about a tea and a tea security. 09:39.700 --> 09:41.980 What does a tea security mean for you? 09:41.980 --> 09:48.940 Like if you need to make a definition, how would you define a tea security? 09:48.940 --> 09:57.140 It's very tough thing, but it's, it's all the things that will ensure the security of 09:57.140 --> 10:04.660 information, informatics system, so and also, you know, the different computer and stuff 10:04.660 --> 10:05.660 that we have. 10:05.660 --> 10:11.700 It's very tough to phrase it in a way that every auditorium gets it, but I think it's, it's 10:11.700 --> 10:12.700 the idea. 10:12.700 --> 10:18.500 So securing the systems, the informatics system, I would say. 10:18.500 --> 10:19.500 And our devices. 10:19.500 --> 10:20.500 Yes. 10:20.500 --> 10:22.500 So it's a very broad field. 10:22.500 --> 10:23.500 Yes. 10:23.500 --> 10:27.340 And what's your favorite part about it? 10:27.340 --> 10:28.340 Favorite part. 10:28.340 --> 10:35.260 I think the privacy part, of course, I mean, IT security and privacy security is like, 10:35.260 --> 10:42.700 you know, 80% common and 20% very different, because it depends what you want to protect. 10:42.700 --> 10:49.340 And so the part I like is everything that is, you know, privacy related. 10:49.340 --> 10:57.780 So would you say that it's possible to have a secure system that protects all the privacy 10:57.780 --> 11:02.540 or do you think this is like impossible to achieve? 11:02.540 --> 11:06.380 I know it's a mean question, but there's no 100% security. 11:06.380 --> 11:09.100 Yeah, perfect security doesn't exist. 11:09.100 --> 11:16.220 If you can have enough security considering your situation, maybe depending on your situation, 11:16.220 --> 11:21.540 but you have to, you know, be quite clear about what your situation is. 11:21.540 --> 11:30.020 But yeah, the perfect security is either not possible or just not like lifeable. 11:30.020 --> 11:39.060 I mean, you would need to impose on yourself some very, very tough rules and tough assumption 11:39.340 --> 11:44.500 to ensure that you already, you know, have the highest level of security. 11:44.500 --> 11:48.500 And at the same time, you just want to, you know, live your life. 11:48.500 --> 11:50.820 And it's just no more practical. 11:50.820 --> 11:57.420 So it's perfect that you should not be for must be poignant in most situations, 11:57.420 --> 11:59.740 not something that you are aiming for. 11:59.740 --> 12:04.820 You should aim for something that is okay for you, like, yeah. 12:04.820 --> 12:09.060 That you say, okay, I'm comfortable with this level of security. 12:09.060 --> 12:10.180 And I'm okay. 12:10.180 --> 12:15.020 And I'm very that some data might be leaked and that I'm not able to protect everything. 12:15.020 --> 12:15.900 Yeah, exactly. 12:15.900 --> 12:18.180 It's what we call straight modeling. 12:18.180 --> 12:25.660 So we are every one of us should, you know, decide what is the level of, you know, 12:25.660 --> 12:31.540 privacy, the need and their comfortable ways and try to help for it. 12:31.540 --> 12:32.540 Okay. 12:32.540 --> 12:34.220 I see. 12:34.220 --> 12:39.100 And talking about security, would you say free software is more secure than non free software 12:39.100 --> 12:42.980 because I'm quite sure you have heard this argument before. 12:42.980 --> 12:48.940 As soon as you start talking with some people that are very intimate free software and quite 12:48.940 --> 12:54.500 cool because I'm also into free software, they start arguing that free software is more 12:54.500 --> 12:58.260 secure because of the poor freedoms. 12:58.260 --> 13:03.220 And I was wondering as a privacy specialist and as a person who has a lot of experience 13:03.220 --> 13:08.900 with IT security and cryptography, would you say that this is true or not true? 13:08.900 --> 13:11.180 I think it's more complex than that. 13:11.180 --> 13:12.180 Yes. 13:12.180 --> 13:18.420 I mean, do I believe that the most secure stuff are free software? 13:18.420 --> 13:19.420 Yes. 13:19.420 --> 13:23.820 Do I consider that some free software are really insecure? 13:23.820 --> 13:24.820 Also yes. 13:25.060 --> 13:31.180 To have something that is secure, you need it to be audited and checked. 13:31.180 --> 13:36.500 And you need to have some people who will check on it and will answer to the things that 13:36.500 --> 13:39.140 are being found and so on and so on. 13:39.140 --> 13:47.100 So you need a lot of things and a lot of conditions in order to have something that is, you know, 13:47.100 --> 13:50.020 very secure at the end. 13:50.020 --> 13:58.580 And free software helps because it's a lot more people to do this, those audits. 13:58.580 --> 14:05.420 It's a lot to way more people to read the code and to discover that there is something, 14:05.420 --> 14:11.860 you know, I may stupid or intentionally, you know, bad in it and so on. 14:12.860 --> 14:21.860 And it also, you know, provides a system in a lot of cases where people will, you know, 14:21.860 --> 14:29.340 will be used to answer to critics from outside, like they are used to to receive people saying, 14:29.340 --> 14:33.380 hey, you should change that or there is a bug there and so on. 14:33.380 --> 14:40.820 So they have the tool to hear when someone comes and say, hey, I have found a vulnerability 14:40.820 --> 14:44.580 on your system or on your software. 14:44.580 --> 14:50.700 And so they already have the tools to untware it and to correct it and so on. 14:50.700 --> 14:58.260 So it's more a question that free software have a lot of, you know, things that are very 14:58.260 --> 15:02.740 good to provide highly secure software. 15:02.740 --> 15:11.020 But it doesn't mean that all software are secured because first, a lot of free software 15:11.020 --> 15:14.740 are just and will never be audited. 15:14.740 --> 15:19.860 Like nobody will look at the codes or they will look at some people will look, but that 15:19.860 --> 15:26.540 just some part to maybe add an API or maybe add a new functionality on some, but nobody 15:26.540 --> 15:30.540 will look at whether it's secure or not. 15:30.540 --> 15:39.420 And if nobody will look at it, then probably there are a lot of pollinates, that's one thing. 15:39.420 --> 15:45.300 Another thing is, sadly, a lot of projects are under found. 15:45.300 --> 15:50.980 And so the people are very stressed and they may have a lot of things to do. 15:50.980 --> 15:58.180 And so they might, they might sometimes just say, okay, we don't have, you know, enough 15:58.180 --> 16:05.820 time or enough means in general to to check everything. 16:05.820 --> 16:13.140 And they might, you know, have shortcuts and so not be as secure as they might be. 16:13.140 --> 16:23.300 And so it's, so yeah, so for me, the best software and the most secure one are free software. 16:23.300 --> 16:31.180 And but sadly, all free software are not as secure as we wish it to be. 16:31.180 --> 16:32.180 Yeah, that's true. 16:32.180 --> 16:37.340 No, thank you very much for the explanation and I do quite agree with this kind of complex 16:37.340 --> 16:40.180 approach. 16:40.180 --> 16:46.420 Another thing I often hear is people argue that non-free software is more secure because 16:46.420 --> 16:51.420 people do not know how the code is written and what the code does exactly. 16:51.420 --> 16:54.660 And this is called security by obscurity. 16:54.660 --> 17:04.060 Okay, I'm a cryptographer, cryptography, security by obscurity has been like debunked for 17:04.580 --> 17:08.260 I will be nearly half a century. 17:08.260 --> 17:14.580 At the time, we just, you know, realized that's the best crypto, best algorithm, but since 17:14.580 --> 17:20.380 whether one that's everyone will look at it and will try to either attack it or attack 17:20.380 --> 17:24.740 the proof because in some case, you have some mathematical proof beyond your, your schemes 17:24.740 --> 17:25.740 and so on and so on. 17:25.740 --> 17:32.620 And those are the cryptos that we consider as, you know, like, no, the most secure one. 17:32.620 --> 17:34.860 And it's the same with obscurity. 17:34.860 --> 17:41.860 I don't mean that you should, you know, give your private key to everyone. 17:41.860 --> 17:44.380 It absolutely not the case. 17:44.380 --> 17:49.860 And even though you will use free software, maybe you will like not, you know, show to 17:49.860 --> 17:53.700 everyone what is your configuration, what's the parameter you are using and so on. 17:53.700 --> 17:56.340 So that is a thing, but there is two different things. 17:56.340 --> 18:02.060 It's, do you need free software and the way you apply free software and your system, do 18:02.060 --> 18:09.300 you need it to be like perfectly 100% transparent in the means that you will give every, you know, 18:09.300 --> 18:12.340 implementation data, every parameter you are using and so on. 18:12.340 --> 18:15.380 That's two different things. 18:15.380 --> 18:22.100 You will be, in most cases, the one who, you know, brought the code you are using, you 18:22.100 --> 18:28.020 will, you know, use some software for someone, someone else. 18:28.020 --> 18:34.380 How can you be confident that this free software, this software, by default, in general? 18:34.380 --> 18:40.300 This software is first, doing what you say we say is doing. 18:40.300 --> 18:47.100 And third, that is doing it in a, you know, nice way. 18:47.100 --> 18:55.140 Okay, if you can't look at the code, if nobody can look at the code, if nobody did not, 18:55.140 --> 19:02.660 then you're screwed like you can't know whether it's, you know, if it's really doing what 19:02.660 --> 19:05.260 it's supposed to do or not. 19:05.260 --> 19:13.060 And so, okay, so you will, you know, put all those black box in your system and then you 19:13.060 --> 19:14.500 will say that it's more secure. 19:14.500 --> 19:15.500 I disagree. 19:15.500 --> 19:24.380 I mean, I prefer to have a feeling, yes, I want, you know, be sure at 100% of every, you 19:24.380 --> 19:29.860 know, every box I will put in my system, but I, I will be reasonably sure for most of 19:29.860 --> 19:30.860 that. 19:30.860 --> 19:36.820 And then, yes, I might not give you all my, you know, on the data of the infrastructure 19:36.820 --> 19:41.300 on which, you know, which thing I will be using and so on, but it's, it's more a question 19:41.300 --> 19:47.660 of how I will, you know, put it in my system, so it will stay. 19:47.660 --> 19:51.460 So there is very, you know, two separate things for me. 19:51.540 --> 19:59.420 Yeah, the one is like you do not need to be 100% transparent and you do also need, but 19:59.420 --> 20:04.180 you need to be transparent on some level and that people know how to code works and let 20:04.180 --> 20:10.940 people know how they, how the software is coded and works. 20:11.660 --> 20:17.900 Yeah, because if you don't know how the software works and you don't know what it's, you 20:17.900 --> 20:23.300 know, what is doing with your data, what is doing with your, you know, your system, 20:23.300 --> 20:31.380 like, you know, that's, it's, in fact, you are implementing in your system, something 20:31.380 --> 20:36.540 that might be a threat, like, you know, so, yeah, just free software. 20:39.740 --> 20:44.820 I think after we have played up all the prejudice against free software and IT security, 20:44.980 --> 20:50.500 I was wondering, you already mentioned that a bit, what do you think we need to make software 20:50.500 --> 20:51.500 more secure? 20:52.020 --> 20:56.900 We did do teaching when it people paid for auditing stuff. 20:56.900 --> 21:03.860 And in fact, both from an IT security point of view and from a privacy point of view, 21:03.860 --> 21:09.460 because it's, other was saying earlier, it's 80% comment and 20% very different. 21:09.940 --> 21:18.580 And so we need more and more auditing and it means that we need, yeah, I know it's always the 21:18.580 --> 21:28.580 same, but we need money for that. But there, you know, we start to see some initiative from, 21:28.580 --> 21:36.980 you know, at the open level or in the US, you know, pushing for auditing stuff and like 21:36.980 --> 21:44.740 auditing free software, so providing money for that. And I think if we called in an ideal world, 21:44.740 --> 21:52.100 all the biggest audits, not biggest in line of code, but in biggest in, in fact, 21:52.100 --> 22:01.780 there are the more used, liberate slash software should be at least audited at least once every few 22:02.740 --> 22:12.180 years. And that will help everyone. And that is one thing. And the other is, you had some 22:12.180 --> 22:19.860 very interesting academic work on developers. And I look specifically, you know, quite recently, 22:19.860 --> 22:30.820 about how they deal with passwords. And they study, they, you know, ask developer to write some, 22:30.820 --> 22:37.300 some codes to deal with passwords, some authentication codes. And for a part of them, they just had 22:37.300 --> 22:44.100 to do it. And for parts of them, they tell them, you have to, to ensure that it's secure. 22:45.060 --> 22:53.620 Just a few words, like something just general. And both did, the bus group ended up doing something 22:53.620 --> 23:02.420 very different. I mean, the one where, the one who have been said, you know, to take care of 23:02.420 --> 23:09.300 security, did it in more secure way, but like very more secure way. Why the other one did something 23:09.300 --> 23:17.620 that works, but works like being very, very efficient, but not secure. I think in, from a lot of 23:17.620 --> 23:25.700 developer, they are thinking about functionality, about insurance, I think our smooths are, you know, 23:25.700 --> 23:31.940 are working pretty well. And security is not considered as a functionality or not considered as 23:31.940 --> 23:37.380 something, you know, that's, you know, stains on mind. That's something that's, you know, they should 23:37.380 --> 23:44.580 think about. So I think it's also a question of, you know, like in the future, more and more people 23:44.580 --> 23:51.460 will, you know, will have them all those privacy and security questions in the back of their minds. 23:51.460 --> 23:57.860 And then it will move on. So both a question of audits, you know, the two, you know, have all the, 23:57.860 --> 24:05.220 you know, so you change, you also think that the, the mindset of developers has to change a bit 24:05.220 --> 24:13.540 or it's changing. And because I see security has become such a huge topic that they think about 24:13.540 --> 24:24.820 that security by coding. I think, yeah. I hope so. I also think that we, in the EU, we are 24:24.820 --> 24:31.140 lucky enough to have very strong privacy low. And I think that's the fact that we have those low 24:31.140 --> 24:38.180 and we are talking a lot about those low. And we have those big sanctions sometimes and so 24:38.980 --> 24:48.580 are, you know, like, you know, updating the moral software of people doing all those stuff 24:48.580 --> 24:53.860 because it's not just developers, it's groups, it's a community doing all those projects. And the 24:53.860 --> 25:00.980 fact that they are considering this is something important. And so I have a lot of hope. 25:01.780 --> 25:09.860 For the future. Me too. Okay, my last question. You have already mentioned that I love 25:09.860 --> 25:16.820 free software campaign. Yeah. And I know that you have translated it. And so I'm quite sure, 25:16.820 --> 25:23.060 you know, that we have this every year on the 14th of February. And we use this day to say thank 25:23.060 --> 25:28.900 you to some developers or photographers or other people that contribute to free software. 25:29.540 --> 25:36.420 And I was wondering if you would like to give me the honor of saying thank you to a free software 25:36.420 --> 25:45.140 project. Yeah, I will, you know, boss will thanks everyone that is not writing code because you're 25:45.140 --> 25:51.460 often forgotten. So I love people who write codes. It's not what I'm saying. I also, you know, 25:51.540 --> 25:57.700 thank you, all the one who, you know, tons of late stuff who ensures that you have very nice, 25:58.340 --> 26:03.780 you know, design interface and so on and so on. That's just so nice. So thank you very much. 26:03.780 --> 26:09.700 And if I have to pick one project, I will pick keep us. It's not the first time that I did it for 26:09.700 --> 26:18.180 I love free software day. I know. But it's like, you know, I'm using it for like 15 years, I think. 26:18.180 --> 26:25.540 And it's, it's, yeah, it's something I can't, I can't survive without, you know, something to, 26:25.540 --> 26:33.460 yeah. So thank you. Thank you very much for your time, Crypti. You're welcome. And I hope to see you 26:33.460 --> 26:42.340 again in the future, maybe on the podcast. Yeah, up so. Bye. Bye. This was the software freedom 26:42.340 --> 26:48.100 podcast. If you liked this episode, please recommend it to your friends and rate. Also subscribe 26:48.100 --> 26:53.220 to make sure you will get the next episode. This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software 26:53.220 --> 26:58.580 Foundation Europe. We are a charity that works on promoting software freedom. If you like our 26:58.580 --> 27:03.140 work, please consider supporting us with that donation. You find more information under 27:03.140 --> 27:20.340 emphasif-ie.org slash donate.