Transcript of SFP#20: All about Device Neutrality with Lucas Lasota
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WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:17.240 Welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. 00:17.240 --> 00:21.680 This podcast was presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe, the R Charity 00:21.680 --> 00:24.800 that it powers users to control technology. 00:24.800 --> 00:29.760 I'm Bonnie Merring and our guest for today's episode is Lukas Lasota. 00:29.760 --> 00:34.480 Lukas has a background in contract and technology law, and he's also teaching at the Humboldt 00:34.480 --> 00:40.400 University in the fields of civil IT and telecommunication law. 00:40.400 --> 00:45.520 Apart from this work at the university, Lukas also works for the FSFE as a senior project 00:45.520 --> 00:46.520 manager. 00:46.520 --> 00:52.200 At the FSFE, he focuses on several initiatives connecting law and technology. 00:52.200 --> 00:57.080 Among those, Lukas works for device neutrality and narrative freedom. 00:57.080 --> 01:00.840 For this episode, we will break down these topics and cover their technical background 01:00.840 --> 01:03.240 and their impact on society. 01:03.240 --> 01:07.200 Thank you so much for being here, Lukas, and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. 01:07.200 --> 01:08.200 Hi, Bonnie. 01:08.200 --> 01:10.000 It's my great pleasure to be here. 01:10.000 --> 01:14.720 Lukas, you also work for the FSFE, but where does your interest for free software comes 01:14.720 --> 01:15.720 from? 01:15.720 --> 01:25.720 Well, I'm a lawyer as a profession, and I always study different areas of law, copyright, 01:25.720 --> 01:33.600 patent law, and usually we take this for granted that the system works just on this direction, 01:33.600 --> 01:39.280 on this way, but the free software is truly a revolution on how copyright and patent 01:39.280 --> 01:42.840 law is in fact applied in society. 01:42.840 --> 01:49.600 So basically, copy left, for example, is a heck of the copyright system, and for me 01:49.600 --> 01:56.640 that was just a genius movement, and that's why I found the law, and I said, I need to take 01:56.640 --> 01:58.240 part on this. 01:58.240 --> 02:05.080 So you came to FSFE to a law point of view, so it was not a technical background. 02:05.080 --> 02:12.320 Like, you didn't think, oh, I need to have FSFE, so I can help to improve to software 02:12.320 --> 02:15.880 or other than able to use the software for anything that I want. 02:15.880 --> 02:24.360 It was more about how does free software and law interconnect, and the whole concept 02:24.360 --> 02:26.160 of copy left. 02:26.160 --> 02:33.080 Yes, and this is the beauty of the movement, right, because it puts together technical 02:33.080 --> 02:41.360 people, policy people, lot people all working for making software free, right? 02:41.360 --> 02:48.360 And that was the appealing part to me, that traditional institutions, legal institutions, 02:48.360 --> 02:53.960 legal instruments, were being interpreted and used in a completely different way in order 02:53.960 --> 02:59.920 to safeguard freedoms and not to restrict freedoms, and that was for me a game changer. 02:59.920 --> 03:03.680 Thank you for sharing this background, sir, Milukas. 03:03.680 --> 03:07.080 How and why did you join the FSFE? 03:08.080 --> 03:17.240 Yes, so after having this completed turnaround in my life, and I start thinking about what 03:17.240 --> 03:25.680 should I do now, I start researching about free software, and I wrote some legal articles 03:25.680 --> 03:31.560 on free software, and I started learning more, reading a lot. 03:31.560 --> 03:36.680 And in that term point, I said, perhaps I could also do it for a living. 03:36.680 --> 03:39.920 I could perhaps start working with it. 03:39.920 --> 03:49.800 And then in 2018, I saw that the FSFE was hiring, and I applied, and I was very proud 03:49.800 --> 03:56.280 and happy that they accepted me, and I have been working for the FSFE since 2019. 03:56.280 --> 03:57.280 That's quite a long time. 03:57.280 --> 03:58.280 Yes, it's amazing. 03:59.280 --> 04:06.360 During this whole time, what was the best thing that you can remember by working for the 04:06.360 --> 04:09.800 FSFE and connected to free software? 04:09.800 --> 04:17.120 Oh, this is a very hard question, because I have so much good moments, and I'm optimistic 04:17.120 --> 04:24.520 that I still have a lot of good moments, but I think that the community is a great part 04:24.520 --> 04:25.520 of it. 04:26.240 --> 04:35.080 Learning and with people that has a completely different view on things, it's really something 04:35.080 --> 04:36.080 different for me. 04:36.080 --> 04:45.040 I mean, I have learned so much in these four years that I say that perhaps I went again 04:45.040 --> 04:49.960 in the academy of life learning on how to control technology. 04:49.960 --> 04:54.800 So I think the learning process with the community has been the best aspect for me. 04:54.960 --> 04:56.440 I really like that, Lucas. 04:56.440 --> 04:59.560 Thank you so much for sharing this with me. 04:59.560 --> 05:04.360 So as we already established, you have been working for the FSFE now for quite a long 05:04.360 --> 05:05.360 time. 05:05.360 --> 05:11.600 During this time, what are the main areas you worked for, or the main focus you had, 05:11.600 --> 05:13.760 and did this change over the time? 05:13.760 --> 05:14.760 Right. 05:14.760 --> 05:22.040 So since my background as law, I've been working several activities in the legal and 05:22.040 --> 05:24.040 policy field. 05:24.040 --> 05:32.680 Together with my colleague, Gabriel, we facilitate, for example, the FSFE legal network, and 05:32.680 --> 05:36.040 we work also in several legal initiatives. 05:36.040 --> 05:42.800 One of my favorites, because I think this initiative can really change the landscape 05:42.800 --> 05:47.760 of the internet of the future, is the next generation internet. 05:47.760 --> 05:56.320 And we provide hundreds of software projects, help, and organize their license compliance. 05:56.320 --> 06:04.320 And for example, we help them implement our reuse specifications, and between other legal 06:04.320 --> 06:05.320 initiatives. 06:05.320 --> 06:13.480 In the policy side, I've been working mainly in helping people to control their own devices 06:13.480 --> 06:15.560 with the help of free software. 06:15.560 --> 06:22.800 In this regard, I've been spearheading the device neutrality initiative and the router-free 06:22.800 --> 06:24.840 to campaign. 06:24.840 --> 06:30.120 What is device neutrality, and what does this include? 06:30.120 --> 06:35.520 This is a fundamental concept, and to explain this, I would like to start with an example. 06:35.520 --> 06:41.720 Let's imagine that you have bought a smart phone, a shiny new smart phone, right? 06:41.720 --> 06:46.800 And you are thrilled to learn and discover all that your device can deliver. 06:46.800 --> 06:52.320 You want it to install apps, use camera, access the internet, run games, enjoy all that 06:52.320 --> 06:54.480 your equipment can perform. 06:54.480 --> 07:01.000 However, I think everybody who has bought his smartphones in the last years faced this 07:01.000 --> 07:02.000 problem. 07:02.000 --> 07:07.720 You begin to perceive that something is not quite correct, I would say, because in order 07:07.720 --> 07:13.080 to start your phone, you are prompted to create an online account for using this device. 07:13.080 --> 07:14.480 This is the first thing. 07:14.480 --> 07:22.680 Secondly, you start to perceive that you are limited in how you download or install new 07:22.680 --> 07:25.520 apps and programs. 07:25.520 --> 07:32.040 Perhaps you are allowed only to download new apps through the manufacturers or the vendor's 07:32.040 --> 07:34.640 app store or marketplace. 07:34.640 --> 07:40.960 Then you are forbidden to install 30-party software, or if you wanted to install different 07:40.960 --> 07:47.360 repository, for example, F-Droid, you are not allowed, and most weirdly, you are not 07:47.360 --> 07:50.880 allowed to remove pre-installed programs. 07:50.880 --> 07:54.880 And this is really a serious issue, right? 07:54.880 --> 08:02.880 Because you are not allowed to remove programs that are occupying the device memory, space, 08:02.880 --> 08:08.520 or training its battery, or even worse, it's proprietary and you don't know what the 08:08.520 --> 08:10.440 program is doing. 08:10.440 --> 08:16.320 So perhaps you wanted to change the operating system and you are not to do that. 08:16.320 --> 08:23.840 So basically, just to sum up, this sad example that I think every consumer today in digital 08:23.840 --> 08:29.960 markets are facing, although digital devices are ubiquitous today. 08:29.960 --> 08:36.200 The number of devices on which users cannot run free software is exponentially increasing, 08:36.200 --> 08:41.560 and the consequence is an increasing loss of control over user technology. 08:41.560 --> 08:52.960 So device neutrality aims to enable consumers and users, we, to bypass these restrictions 08:52.960 --> 08:56.640 and to use free software on devices. 08:56.640 --> 08:59.800 This is all the device neutrality is all about. 08:59.800 --> 09:06.200 So basically, the name stands for devices should be neutral? 09:06.200 --> 09:13.720 Right, so the concept of neutrality here, and this is not a concept that was invented 09:13.720 --> 09:15.440 by the FSFE. 09:15.440 --> 09:21.600 Device neutrality has been around for quite some time already in Europe, I, for example, 09:21.600 --> 09:24.560 already since 2013, 2014. 09:24.560 --> 09:30.160 There were already some movements in Italy to make this concept to reach a legislation, 09:30.160 --> 09:36.400 but unfortunately, it lost some momentum and track there, but also the academic sector 09:36.400 --> 09:40.840 has been working a lot in order to define in this. 09:40.840 --> 09:47.080 So basically, and the academic sector, there's a lot of studies in the last three years 09:47.120 --> 09:55.000 working on this, and they, they realize that manufacturers, for example, 09:55.000 --> 10:01.200 smartphones, manufacturers or vendors are even internet platforms. 10:01.200 --> 10:12.680 They control specifically, specific points in the device architecture or in the device 10:12.680 --> 10:22.240 infrastructure, that prohibits end users to perform the term functions of this device. 10:22.240 --> 10:30.040 For example, as we just said, it's not possible to install different app stores or repositories 10:30.040 --> 10:37.600 or it doesn't allow to, to uninstall, pre-installed applications. 10:37.600 --> 10:42.480 So basically, these manufacturers and these vendors are even internet platforms. 10:42.480 --> 10:47.760 They have a monopoly on the terms aspects of the device. 10:47.760 --> 10:55.160 And when they have this, this monopoly, they act as a gatekeeper. 10:55.160 --> 11:02.120 They have a weak gatekeeper function controlling these aspects, these elements of devices. 11:02.120 --> 11:11.720 And they can, I can put this, and they can discriminate, they can discriminate in what 11:11.720 --> 11:18.400 functions or what software you can install on uninstall or can run or not run in it. 11:18.400 --> 11:26.080 So the neutrality aspect here, the concept of neutrality is that, is to let users to run 11:26.080 --> 11:32.280 any software that they want in order to explore the functionality of the device. 11:32.280 --> 11:41.000 In fact, this sense, they should be neutral to what the device can do, okay? 11:41.080 --> 11:48.120 All right, so it should be my choice, what kind of software I install on the device, 11:48.120 --> 11:51.320 rather than the choice of the vendor. 11:51.320 --> 12:00.080 Right, of course, that when you buy a smartphone or a computer or a tablet or, you know, 12:00.080 --> 12:05.040 this kind of device is that we are using today, that usually I like to call, 12:05.120 --> 12:12.760 there are general purpose computers, right, that you can run software, we are kind of any free software, 12:12.760 --> 12:13.840 when you buy it. 12:13.840 --> 12:22.520 Well, there are consumers that want to have indeed software already running to it, 12:22.520 --> 12:24.720 that you can already start using it. 12:24.720 --> 12:32.240 Other users prefer to have only the device that they can install by themselves operating systems, 12:32.240 --> 12:42.840 they can, you know, adapt and to configure the device in ways that he or she wants, 12:42.840 --> 12:45.760 but it is a choice. 12:45.760 --> 12:52.440 Yes, so the device, since it's a general purpose computing, it has the capacity 12:52.440 --> 12:58.960 and this capacity to permit users to run the software that they want, 12:58.960 --> 13:05.640 especially when regards to free software, should be protected, should be safeguarded, 13:05.640 --> 13:09.920 and that's what we want with this initiative. 13:09.920 --> 13:13.000 All right, thank you so much for covering the basics of me. 13:13.000 --> 13:21.760 What would you say are the problems that users are facing if device neutrality is not a given standard? 13:21.760 --> 13:30.720 Right, so as I said, the manufacturers, the vendors, the internet platforms, 13:30.720 --> 13:40.720 the gatekeepers, this concept, they control crucial aspects of device operating systems, 13:40.720 --> 13:45.880 app stores, browsers, and perhaps even key online services. 13:45.920 --> 13:51.080 And in general terms, these gatekeepers, they achieve this control, 13:51.080 --> 13:58.440 they achieve this monopoly by a restricting software freedom. 13:58.440 --> 14:03.040 So gatekeepers limit or prevent users installing different operating systems, 14:03.040 --> 14:08.440 browsers that today is very important because we are using browsers more and more, 14:08.480 --> 14:21.200 we are spending more time in browser, using the internet and so gatekeepers, 14:21.200 --> 14:28.480 they restrict our ability to run free software, they restrict software freedom. 14:28.480 --> 14:34.840 But they also lock the device down, they hinder interoperability, for example, 14:34.880 --> 14:42.400 they exercise type control over APIs, they apply proprietary standards, 14:42.400 --> 14:47.440 they hamper functionalities and block access to drivers and hardware. 14:47.440 --> 14:56.880 And they also put end users and consumers inside silos, if we can say like this, if you will, 14:56.880 --> 15:01.280 and they increase switching costs of the devices. 15:01.320 --> 15:07.200 Gatekeepers keep users in these wallet gardens or in silos, 15:07.200 --> 15:14.120 they tie devices to online accounts, bundle app stores and hamper data portability, 15:14.120 --> 15:18.320 making it harder for users to switch software devices or event services. 15:18.320 --> 15:25.640 So basically these are the difficulties that consumers are facing with their devices nowadays. 15:25.680 --> 15:31.240 And how is the FSFE and especially you in this case, supporting device neutrality? 15:32.920 --> 15:40.080 Right, so first we need to understand the causes and we have been, 15:40.080 --> 15:46.840 yeah, as I said, using a lot of concepts that has been developed over the years 15:46.840 --> 15:52.480 by regulators, by the academic sector, 15:52.480 --> 15:58.680 by the free software community itself, because when we see today, 15:58.680 --> 16:04.680 there's a lot of free software alternatives that help users to have much, 16:04.680 --> 16:07.120 much more control over devices. 16:07.120 --> 16:14.760 For example, alternative app stores, alternative browsers, drivers and et cetera. 16:14.760 --> 16:21.600 And we had to adapt to the concept of device neutrality 16:21.600 --> 16:26.600 to and from the perspective of a free software. 16:26.600 --> 16:31.560 And we came out with demands when someone asks, 16:31.560 --> 16:37.240 so what the FSFE is asking for device neutrality? 16:37.240 --> 16:42.680 And in order to use is to regain control over devices, 16:42.680 --> 16:49.360 we think that device neutrality translates into a software freedom. 16:49.400 --> 16:53.920 Regaining control of devices requires safe guiding software freedom. 16:53.920 --> 16:58.720 Users should have the ability to install and uninstall any software, 16:58.720 --> 17:02.000 including operating systems and app stores. 17:02.000 --> 17:07.400 Gatekeepers should provide users the same access privileges 17:07.400 --> 17:10.640 to third party applications as to the pre-installed ones. 17:10.640 --> 17:12.240 So this is very important. 17:12.240 --> 17:19.240 But not only that, we are also against B lock-ins. 17:19.240 --> 17:23.600 We advocate for higher degrees of interoperability, 17:23.600 --> 17:27.360 why the implementation of open standards 17:27.360 --> 17:31.680 in the different aspects and dimensional of devices. 17:31.680 --> 17:36.440 And we promote easier access to APIs specifications 17:36.440 --> 17:40.240 and functionalities invoked by 30-parties apps. 17:40.240 --> 17:47.160 So, and we also the third point 17:47.160 --> 17:50.440 that composed our understanding of device neutrality 17:50.440 --> 17:56.120 is that end users should have control over data in their devices. 17:56.120 --> 18:00.600 So breaking monopolies over devices necessarily requires 18:00.600 --> 18:04.800 empowering users to control their own data on their equipment. 18:07.000 --> 18:11.000 That's why end users should be able to easily transfer personal data 18:11.000 --> 18:15.280 from apps operating systems and across devices. 18:15.280 --> 18:24.520 Most importantly for us, the formats of the standards 18:24.520 --> 18:28.080 that this data portability and this data interoperability 18:28.080 --> 18:30.880 should be, should abide, open standards 18:30.880 --> 18:35.440 and common interfaces for data transfer. 18:35.440 --> 18:41.720 However, all these demands, they are materialized 18:41.760 --> 18:45.280 in several initiatives that we have been running 18:45.280 --> 18:47.800 in the last years. 18:47.800 --> 18:52.560 For example, we engaged with European institutions 18:52.560 --> 18:55.840 in the legislative process of digital markets act. 18:55.840 --> 18:59.480 It's a very important legislation 18:59.480 --> 19:01.600 that entered in force last year. 19:01.600 --> 19:06.000 But we have been working with several decision makers 19:06.000 --> 19:09.680 and policy makers in order to promote 19:09.680 --> 19:14.960 device neutrality principles that I just mentioned in the law. 19:14.960 --> 19:19.480 And we were very happy to see that several of them 19:19.480 --> 19:21.920 were established in the law. 19:21.920 --> 19:26.080 So now we can say that device neutrality, 19:26.080 --> 19:27.800 at least in the legislative level, 19:27.800 --> 19:30.360 is already a reality in Europe. 19:30.360 --> 19:35.320 But we need to work further to implement this on practice. 19:35.360 --> 19:40.600 And this leads perhaps to one also a different activity 19:40.600 --> 19:44.800 that I've been working in the FSFE that is router freedom. 19:44.800 --> 19:48.000 And in this case, we now come to router freedom 19:48.000 --> 19:52.640 as this is the other campaign that you're working on. 19:52.640 --> 19:54.400 What is router freedom about? 19:54.400 --> 19:58.920 Could you quickly recap the connection to device neutrality 19:58.920 --> 20:05.000 for me and how router freedom came into life? 20:05.000 --> 20:06.000 Right. 20:06.000 --> 20:12.080 So as you mentioned, device neutrality is, although it's 20:12.080 --> 20:15.680 very simple to understand, the demands for it 20:15.680 --> 20:19.800 is just we require software freedom on devices. 20:19.800 --> 20:24.920 We advocate against locking, vendor locking 20:24.920 --> 20:30.000 in devices, and users should have control over data. 20:30.000 --> 20:35.720 These are very close, basic to the free software community. 20:35.720 --> 20:39.920 Because historically, that's what the community 20:39.920 --> 20:42.160 has allowed to do with free software. 20:42.160 --> 20:43.560 And free software power is usually 20:43.560 --> 20:45.800 to do this with devices, right? 20:45.800 --> 20:51.400 But the bigger the gatekeepers are, 20:51.400 --> 20:55.560 more control they have over the supply chain. 20:55.560 --> 21:00.160 And more control they have over those bottlenecks on devices. 21:00.160 --> 21:03.240 And that's why implementing device neutrality 21:03.240 --> 21:05.760 and practice is challenging. 21:05.760 --> 21:09.120 Because in the end, we have to challenge 21:09.120 --> 21:12.960 the economic and policy power of these very large 21:12.960 --> 21:15.680 and powerful companies. 21:15.680 --> 21:22.120 But router freedom is a very dedicated also initiative. 21:22.120 --> 21:25.920 Because it deals with a very basic level 21:25.920 --> 21:28.040 of device neutrality. 21:28.040 --> 21:34.920 We want that users and consumers have the right 21:34.920 --> 21:40.160 to choose their own devices when connecting to the internet. 21:40.160 --> 21:40.960 Period. 21:40.960 --> 21:42.480 That's very simple. 21:42.480 --> 21:46.880 So router freedom is that you should be able to choose 21:46.880 --> 21:50.160 your own router or modern. 21:50.160 --> 21:53.400 But even on this level of simplicity, 21:53.400 --> 21:56.160 at least conceptual simplicity, in Europe 21:56.160 --> 22:00.080 has been very hard to implement this. 22:00.080 --> 22:03.560 And router freedom has been running already for years. 22:03.560 --> 22:06.120 And we have been experimenting. 22:06.120 --> 22:10.160 And we have been engaging with policymakers, with regulators, 22:10.160 --> 22:16.360 in several levels, in the national level, in the European level, 22:16.360 --> 22:21.520 in order to make this a reality. 22:21.520 --> 22:25.360 We defend, we argue, and we advocate, 22:25.360 --> 22:33.520 that users should not be obliged to use only the router 22:33.520 --> 22:37.320 that the internet services provider gives them. 22:37.320 --> 22:40.120 And sometimes they give these routers to users, 22:40.120 --> 22:43.480 and they also charge for it. 22:43.480 --> 22:48.400 So they are making money twice with routers. 22:48.400 --> 22:52.160 And all that we want is that end users 22:52.160 --> 22:55.760 should have the ability to just buy their own routers 22:55.760 --> 23:01.880 and to run and to install free software on their routers. 23:01.880 --> 23:06.120 And because there are free software operating 23:06.120 --> 23:10.160 systems for routers, and that's all. 23:10.160 --> 23:15.600 And what perhaps someone can say, but is that important? 23:15.600 --> 23:18.160 Router is perhaps just this equipment 23:18.160 --> 23:20.760 that nobody cares is getting there, 23:20.760 --> 23:25.280 getting a little bit dusty in the corner of your room. 23:25.280 --> 23:33.960 But no, I would like to highlight that routers 23:33.960 --> 23:38.680 are very important piece of equipment. 23:38.680 --> 23:40.520 Let's put this way. 23:40.520 --> 23:44.560 Your whole internet traffic, encryption, backups, 23:44.560 --> 23:47.400 communication, shopping, writings, business 23:47.400 --> 23:51.880 interaction, and so on, are transferred over the internet 23:51.880 --> 23:52.920 through your router. 23:52.920 --> 23:55.600 So the router is your gateway to the internet. 23:55.600 --> 24:00.520 If your router is not free, your digital freedoms 24:00.520 --> 24:02.440 are like to be compromised. 24:02.440 --> 24:05.760 So that's why router freedom should be understood 24:05.760 --> 24:08.440 as quite important. 24:08.440 --> 24:10.640 And it affects everybody, because everybody 24:10.640 --> 24:15.360 or nearly everybody is using a router. 24:15.360 --> 24:21.160 And this is for, like, it affects a lot of people. 24:21.160 --> 24:24.800 And as you already said, it's quite, 24:24.800 --> 24:27.560 sometimes it's a bit hard to think about a router 24:27.560 --> 24:31.840 as something very important that you should run free software 24:31.840 --> 24:35.560 on it, because it is the device that 24:35.560 --> 24:40.080 channels all your communication. 24:40.080 --> 24:42.160 As I said, I completely agree with you, 24:42.160 --> 24:44.960 but that router freedom is not merely 24:44.960 --> 24:46.880 top for expect. 24:46.880 --> 24:48.840 It affects all of us. 24:48.840 --> 24:52.880 And the problem is, is that historically, 24:52.880 --> 24:57.120 internet services providers, they 24:57.120 --> 25:01.280 thought that the router would be an element 25:01.280 --> 25:03.120 of their own infrastructure. 25:03.120 --> 25:06.640 So it would be their equipment that they 25:06.640 --> 25:09.240 would put inside our own home. 25:09.240 --> 25:15.760 But it's not like this, because already in the 80s, 25:15.760 --> 25:17.600 this has changed. 25:17.600 --> 25:24.280 And as with telephones, already we saw in the history 25:24.280 --> 25:27.440 of the telecom sector, that telephones, 25:27.440 --> 25:32.760 they started to be understood as a private equipment. 25:32.760 --> 25:37.320 And people could change their own telephones that they wanted. 25:37.320 --> 25:39.800 And it's the same with routers. 25:39.800 --> 25:43.920 But I just wanted to point out that every time 25:43.920 --> 25:48.960 that new technology emerges, gatekeepers or telecom 25:48.960 --> 25:52.720 providers, they usually take a very restrictive approach 25:52.720 --> 25:55.480 to this, and they wanted to keep this equipment 25:55.480 --> 25:59.600 under their own control and not giving users control over it. 25:59.600 --> 26:03.920 So they always raise arguments of security, 26:03.920 --> 26:07.480 of integrity, of the network, and et cetera. 26:07.480 --> 26:12.960 But our experience has shown that the risks of end users 26:12.960 --> 26:16.880 using their own equipment to the public network 26:16.880 --> 26:18.120 is very, very low. 26:18.120 --> 26:20.960 It's very low. 26:20.960 --> 26:26.000 But the benefits for users having their own equipment 26:26.000 --> 26:28.160 is much greater. 26:28.160 --> 26:34.880 So basically, router freedom allows the router market 26:34.880 --> 26:38.120 to thrive, because with more competition, 26:38.120 --> 26:41.760 there are several types of routers that people can use 26:41.760 --> 26:47.440 and can adapt and can configure it to their own needs. 26:47.440 --> 26:54.040 So people can update the parentheses of the routers by their own, 26:54.040 --> 26:56.600 so avoiding security issues. 26:56.600 --> 27:00.760 So router freedom, in fact, benefits not only users, 27:00.760 --> 27:03.600 but benefit the entire digital ecosystem. 27:03.600 --> 27:06.080 It benefits the digital markets as well. 27:06.080 --> 27:08.280 So that's why with router freedoms, 27:08.280 --> 27:13.120 we invite internet service providers 27:13.120 --> 27:18.360 to take a more lax approach and to allow end users 27:18.360 --> 27:20.840 to use their own routers. 27:20.840 --> 27:26.560 But I would say that this has to be done through regulation. 27:26.720 --> 27:30.520 Because without regulation, the tendency 27:30.520 --> 27:33.800 is that ISPs, internet service providers, 27:33.800 --> 27:36.920 they take a very restrictive approach to this. 27:36.920 --> 27:39.600 We have been quite successful on this front. 27:39.600 --> 27:45.600 I must say, Bonnie, that on the regulatory front, 27:45.600 --> 27:47.880 we have been interacting and working 27:47.880 --> 27:51.440 with regulators all over Europe. 27:51.440 --> 27:56.120 And I'm happy to tell you that several countries 27:56.120 --> 27:58.040 already adopted router freedom. 27:58.040 --> 28:03.040 For example, Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, 28:04.840 --> 28:09.000 most recently, in last week, Greece 28:09.000 --> 28:13.600 has also started regulating router freedom. 28:13.600 --> 28:17.400 We have high hopes for Belgium, for example. 28:17.400 --> 28:20.560 So we have been monitoring the entire landscape 28:20.560 --> 28:23.880 and we have been working with regulators 28:23.880 --> 28:29.840 to tell them why router freedom is important, 28:29.840 --> 28:32.360 not only for end users' perspective, 28:32.360 --> 28:35.960 but for consumer protection, for competition, 28:35.960 --> 28:38.160 for sustainability, because users 28:38.160 --> 28:40.280 can use longer their own routers 28:40.280 --> 28:44.240 and not have to change device frequently. 28:44.240 --> 28:46.280 So these are mainly the arguments 28:46.280 --> 28:49.520 that we have been trying to bring to regulators. 28:50.520 --> 28:53.200 As you already mentioned, 28:53.200 --> 28:57.480 the status of router freedom is getting better and better. 28:57.480 --> 29:00.840 I hear that you also have a survey for this. 29:01.960 --> 29:04.200 Can you tell me a bit more about the survey 29:04.200 --> 29:08.960 and who can participate in it? 29:08.960 --> 29:12.160 What does it ask you for questions? 29:12.160 --> 29:15.720 Is it an expert survey or does everybody can take part? 29:16.680 --> 29:17.520 Right. 29:17.520 --> 29:21.880 So this survey has been running already for some time 29:21.880 --> 29:26.880 and our audience is quite broad. 29:27.680 --> 29:29.520 There is a question on the survey 29:29.520 --> 29:31.360 that you can do a self-assessment 29:31.360 --> 29:34.080 if you see yourself as an expert or not, 29:34.080 --> 29:37.400 but every opinion counts. 29:37.400 --> 29:40.760 Because one issue that we have been facing the last years 29:40.760 --> 29:44.560 is that even regulators, they don't have a clear picture 29:44.560 --> 29:48.400 of the problems that end users are facing with their own routers. 29:48.400 --> 29:51.840 And we wanted to change this raising empirical data 29:51.840 --> 29:56.000 to show them what kind of problems end users are facing 29:56.000 --> 29:57.840 with their own router. 29:57.840 --> 30:02.840 In 2016, a law on net neutrality was introduced in Europe 30:06.600 --> 30:08.840 and one of the articles of this law 30:08.840 --> 30:11.160 is saying that end users have the right 30:11.160 --> 30:14.360 to choose their own terminal equipment. 30:14.360 --> 30:20.360 And we have been working on this law to make this a reality. 30:20.360 --> 30:23.720 But the problem is with the teleconsector is that 30:23.720 --> 30:25.120 in order to implement this right, 30:25.120 --> 30:27.160 there is a lot of technical regulations 30:27.160 --> 30:30.960 that should be implemented by telecom regulators 30:30.960 --> 30:37.560 and sometimes they can take a relatively physical approach to this right. 30:37.640 --> 30:43.720 And we would like to avoid this showing them 30:43.720 --> 30:48.160 that there are violations of this very basic right. 30:48.160 --> 30:50.440 There's a violation of net neutrality 30:50.440 --> 30:55.520 when users are not being allowed to use their own routers. 30:55.520 --> 31:01.320 I'm happy to say that this survey is a success 31:01.360 --> 31:07.640 because more than 1,300 end users, 31:07.640 --> 31:11.040 so people all over Europe had took part on this 31:11.040 --> 31:13.600 and they have been related a lot of problems 31:13.600 --> 31:16.080 that they have been encountered. 31:16.080 --> 31:21.440 So this has been very helpful for us to trace 31:21.440 --> 31:23.160 and to map these problems. 31:23.160 --> 31:27.680 But we also ask them if they think that router freedom is important 31:27.680 --> 31:33.760 and it's quite nice to see that more than 90% of the respondents 31:33.760 --> 31:36.680 said that they think that router freedom is important. 31:36.680 --> 31:38.600 Router freedom is important for security. 31:38.600 --> 31:42.040 Router freedom is important for their old questions that we put there. 31:42.040 --> 31:47.680 And so yeah, these are the results of the survey 31:47.680 --> 31:53.760 that we are planning to publish in the coming weeks in the coming months. 31:53.800 --> 31:57.560 But are the next steps for router freedom? 31:59.520 --> 32:06.520 Right, so yes, it's not a given effect nowadays. 32:06.840 --> 32:10.320 So we have a lot of work in front of us 32:10.320 --> 32:15.320 and we will continue to work on this in the years to come. 32:15.320 --> 32:23.320 So a device neutrality, as I said, it became a reality just last year. 32:23.680 --> 32:26.600 And a legislative reality, I would say. 32:26.600 --> 32:29.440 But as I just mentioned with router freedom, 32:29.440 --> 32:34.440 there was a law in 2016 already grinned in this to end users. 32:34.440 --> 32:39.680 And in 2023, this is not a reality still in Europe, right? 32:39.680 --> 32:44.240 So it requires a lot of engagement of civil society actors. 32:44.240 --> 32:47.120 It requires a lot of work. 32:47.120 --> 32:53.120 And that's why I think that the type of efforts 32:53.120 --> 32:59.200 that we are making within the FSFE to make this reality, 32:59.200 --> 33:03.440 yeah, it's something that we need to keep doing 33:03.440 --> 33:06.480 and not to take that for granted. 33:06.480 --> 33:12.720 And is there anything that people can do to participate 33:12.720 --> 33:16.520 and to support router freedom or device neutrality? 33:16.520 --> 33:18.520 Absolutely, absolutely. 33:18.680 --> 33:22.800 So I'll start with router freedom. 33:22.800 --> 33:26.560 So router freedom, you can participate, 33:26.560 --> 33:31.560 taking part on our survey, the link is on our website. 33:35.160 --> 33:36.400 You can... 33:36.400 --> 33:37.600 And in the show notes. 33:38.640 --> 33:44.640 Yes, and help us understanding better the situation on our country. 33:44.720 --> 33:47.560 There are countries that we have a lot of information already, 33:47.560 --> 33:52.000 for example, in Germany, are in other countries 33:52.000 --> 33:53.800 where router freedom is a reality. 33:53.800 --> 33:56.320 But there is too room for improvement. 33:56.320 --> 33:59.160 So we really would like to see engagement from people 33:59.160 --> 34:00.760 from other countries as well. 34:01.840 --> 34:06.160 And you can talk to other people about it. 34:06.160 --> 34:10.760 You can, for example, if you know how to configure a router, 34:10.760 --> 34:12.920 if you know how to use a router, 34:12.920 --> 34:16.320 perhaps you can talk to your colleagues, to your friends, 34:16.360 --> 34:20.880 to your family, that perhaps they should update the router 34:20.880 --> 34:25.880 and to have a router that is perhaps more suitable to them. 34:28.400 --> 34:32.840 You can also support us, right? 34:32.840 --> 34:36.320 In our work, you can translate our texts. 34:36.320 --> 34:38.320 It's the same for device neutrality. 34:38.320 --> 34:43.120 So the situation with device neutrality 34:43.120 --> 34:44.480 is a little bit more complex 34:44.480 --> 34:47.280 because when you buy your smartphone, 34:47.280 --> 34:51.200 sometimes you are not allowed to do that. 34:51.200 --> 34:55.360 But if you have this ability 34:55.360 --> 34:57.920 with your device to install free software, 34:57.920 --> 35:02.560 please do so and help free software projects. 35:02.560 --> 35:05.960 Install FDroid on your smartphone, for example, 35:05.960 --> 35:09.760 use more free software on your devices. 35:09.760 --> 35:12.360 Install, try to install perhaps 35:12.360 --> 35:15.800 a free software operating system on your laptop, 35:15.800 --> 35:18.640 contribute to this project, 35:18.640 --> 35:23.240 in strength of the community, spread the word 35:23.240 --> 35:25.760 because we need to have a flourish 35:25.760 --> 35:30.560 and health community in order to make our rights a reality. 35:30.560 --> 35:32.080 Thank you so much, Lucas. 35:33.320 --> 35:35.120 Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here. 35:35.120 --> 35:38.320 And not yet quite done. 35:38.320 --> 35:41.720 The last question that I have for you is, 35:41.720 --> 35:46.800 you have all this connection with technology, society. 35:46.800 --> 35:50.360 You pointed out how people can participate. 35:50.360 --> 35:53.160 But what would be the software that you say, 35:53.160 --> 35:54.920 oh, the software is so awesome. 35:54.920 --> 35:57.760 My life would be different without the software. 35:59.760 --> 36:01.560 I love free software activities. 36:01.560 --> 36:03.960 One of my favorites within the FSFE. 36:03.960 --> 36:07.960 And if you check, perhaps my stars on social media 36:07.960 --> 36:10.080 on Macedon, you see that every year, 36:10.080 --> 36:15.440 I have a huge list of free software that I'm thinking 36:15.440 --> 36:20.440 because all of them makes our life easier, nicer, 36:23.480 --> 36:27.160 and it allows us indeed to control technology. 36:27.160 --> 36:31.280 I would be a little bit unfair in this opportunity 36:31.280 --> 36:33.960 that you're giving me here in this very important podcast. 36:33.960 --> 36:37.160 Just think just one software. 36:37.200 --> 36:43.720 Because, as I said, taking on a broader perspective, 36:43.720 --> 36:45.440 there is a lot of them. 36:45.440 --> 36:50.440 And there also in back end also software 36:51.240 --> 36:54.720 that allows this front end software to run, right? 36:54.720 --> 36:58.360 And there is this infrastructure software running on servers 36:58.360 --> 37:02.800 and in other elements that allows these applications 37:02.800 --> 37:05.320 that we are now using. 37:05.320 --> 37:08.160 And more and more that we are working with device neutrality, 37:08.160 --> 37:13.160 we see how important drivers and all of these frameworks 37:13.720 --> 37:17.080 are also very important in order to allow people 37:17.080 --> 37:19.440 to control technology. 37:19.440 --> 37:23.200 Therefore, I would like to thank generously 37:23.200 --> 37:27.880 all the free software developers who have been working hard. 37:27.880 --> 37:31.480 Sometimes without nobody saying taking 37:31.480 --> 37:34.680 or without financial contributions, 37:34.720 --> 37:37.440 but I just want to say that their work 37:37.440 --> 37:40.360 is very, very important for all of people 37:41.360 --> 37:44.320 that are trying to safeguard 37:44.320 --> 37:47.400 or to have better policies on for their digital rights. 37:48.320 --> 37:49.160 Thank you very much. 37:49.160 --> 37:51.240 This was a nice closing word. 37:51.240 --> 37:54.880 And also, as you already said, it's very important 37:54.880 --> 37:59.560 to say thank you to them and to show our gratitude, 37:59.560 --> 38:03.240 but to also sometimes support free software financially 38:03.240 --> 38:06.280 and to not take it for granted or others work on it. 38:06.280 --> 38:09.080 Yes, thank you very much for having me here. 38:09.080 --> 38:10.840 It was a glitch pleasure. 38:10.840 --> 38:11.640 Thank you, Lucas. 38:11.640 --> 38:12.640 Awesome to have you here. 38:12.640 --> 38:14.160 Thank you so much. 38:14.160 --> 38:16.520 This was the software freedom podcast. 38:16.520 --> 38:18.640 If you liked this episode, please recommend it 38:18.640 --> 38:20.560 to your friends and rate it. 38:20.560 --> 38:24.240 Also subscribe to make sure you will get the next episode. 38:24.240 --> 38:25.960 This podcast is presented to you 38:25.960 --> 38:28.320 by the Free Software Foundation Bureau. 38:28.320 --> 38:32.160 We are a charity that works on promoting software freedom. 38:32.200 --> 38:33.600 If you like our work, 38:33.600 --> 38:36.680 please consider supporting us with our donation. 38:36.680 --> 38:40.800 You find more information on the fsfe.org slash the nade.