Say no to locked-down devices that limit our freedom to install apps and switch operating systems. Say yes to device neutrality, which ensures that we control our own hardware! Your device, your choice! Support our demand for the right to install any software on our devices.

Transcript of SFP#20: All about Device Neutrality with Lucas Lasota

Back to the episode SFP#20

This is a transcript created with the Free Software tool Whisper. For more information and feedback reach out to podcast@fsfe.org

WEBVTT

00:00.000 --> 00:17.240
Welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.

00:17.240 --> 00:21.680
This podcast was presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe, the R Charity

00:21.680 --> 00:24.800
that it powers users to control technology.

00:24.800 --> 00:29.760
I'm Bonnie Merring and our guest for today's episode is Lukas Lasota.

00:29.760 --> 00:34.480
Lukas has a background in contract and technology law, and he's also teaching at the Humboldt

00:34.480 --> 00:40.400
University in the fields of civil IT and telecommunication law.

00:40.400 --> 00:45.520
Apart from this work at the university, Lukas also works for the FSFE as a senior project

00:45.520 --> 00:46.520
manager.

00:46.520 --> 00:52.200
At the FSFE, he focuses on several initiatives connecting law and technology.

00:52.200 --> 00:57.080
Among those, Lukas works for device neutrality and narrative freedom.

00:57.080 --> 01:00.840
For this episode, we will break down these topics and cover their technical background

01:00.840 --> 01:03.240
and their impact on society.

01:03.240 --> 01:07.200
Thank you so much for being here, Lukas, and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.

01:07.200 --> 01:08.200
Hi, Bonnie.

01:08.200 --> 01:10.000
It's my great pleasure to be here.

01:10.000 --> 01:14.720
Lukas, you also work for the FSFE, but where does your interest for free software comes

01:14.720 --> 01:15.720
from?

01:15.720 --> 01:25.720
Well, I'm a lawyer as a profession, and I always study different areas of law, copyright,

01:25.720 --> 01:33.600
patent law, and usually we take this for granted that the system works just on this direction,

01:33.600 --> 01:39.280
on this way, but the free software is truly a revolution on how copyright and patent

01:39.280 --> 01:42.840
law is in fact applied in society.

01:42.840 --> 01:49.600
So basically, copy left, for example, is a heck of the copyright system, and for me

01:49.600 --> 01:56.640
that was just a genius movement, and that's why I found the law, and I said, I need to take

01:56.640 --> 01:58.240
part on this.

01:58.240 --> 02:05.080
So you came to FSFE to a law point of view, so it was not a technical background.

02:05.080 --> 02:12.320
Like, you didn't think, oh, I need to have FSFE, so I can help to improve to software

02:12.320 --> 02:15.880
or other than able to use the software for anything that I want.

02:15.880 --> 02:24.360
It was more about how does free software and law interconnect, and the whole concept

02:24.360 --> 02:26.160
of copy left.

02:26.160 --> 02:33.080
Yes, and this is the beauty of the movement, right, because it puts together technical

02:33.080 --> 02:41.360
people, policy people, lot people all working for making software free, right?

02:41.360 --> 02:48.360
And that was the appealing part to me, that traditional institutions, legal institutions,

02:48.360 --> 02:53.960
legal instruments, were being interpreted and used in a completely different way in order

02:53.960 --> 02:59.920
to safeguard freedoms and not to restrict freedoms, and that was for me a game changer.

02:59.920 --> 03:03.680
Thank you for sharing this background, sir, Milukas.

03:03.680 --> 03:07.080
How and why did you join the FSFE?

03:08.080 --> 03:17.240
Yes, so after having this completed turnaround in my life, and I start thinking about what

03:17.240 --> 03:25.680
should I do now, I start researching about free software, and I wrote some legal articles

03:25.680 --> 03:31.560
on free software, and I started learning more, reading a lot.

03:31.560 --> 03:36.680
And in that term point, I said, perhaps I could also do it for a living.

03:36.680 --> 03:39.920
I could perhaps start working with it.

03:39.920 --> 03:49.800
And then in 2018, I saw that the FSFE was hiring, and I applied, and I was very proud

03:49.800 --> 03:56.280
and happy that they accepted me, and I have been working for the FSFE since 2019.

03:56.280 --> 03:57.280
That's quite a long time.

03:57.280 --> 03:58.280
Yes, it's amazing.

03:59.280 --> 04:06.360
During this whole time, what was the best thing that you can remember by working for the

04:06.360 --> 04:09.800
FSFE and connected to free software?

04:09.800 --> 04:17.120
Oh, this is a very hard question, because I have so much good moments, and I'm optimistic

04:17.120 --> 04:24.520
that I still have a lot of good moments, but I think that the community is a great part

04:24.520 --> 04:25.520
of it.

04:26.240 --> 04:35.080
Learning and with people that has a completely different view on things, it's really something

04:35.080 --> 04:36.080
different for me.

04:36.080 --> 04:45.040
I mean, I have learned so much in these four years that I say that perhaps I went again

04:45.040 --> 04:49.960
in the academy of life learning on how to control technology.

04:49.960 --> 04:54.800
So I think the learning process with the community has been the best aspect for me.

04:54.960 --> 04:56.440
I really like that, Lucas.

04:56.440 --> 04:59.560
Thank you so much for sharing this with me.

04:59.560 --> 05:04.360
So as we already established, you have been working for the FSFE now for quite a long

05:04.360 --> 05:05.360
time.

05:05.360 --> 05:11.600
During this time, what are the main areas you worked for, or the main focus you had,

05:11.600 --> 05:13.760
and did this change over the time?

05:13.760 --> 05:14.760
Right.

05:14.760 --> 05:22.040
So since my background as law, I've been working several activities in the legal and

05:22.040 --> 05:24.040
policy field.

05:24.040 --> 05:32.680
Together with my colleague, Gabriel, we facilitate, for example, the FSFE legal network, and

05:32.680 --> 05:36.040
we work also in several legal initiatives.

05:36.040 --> 05:42.800
One of my favorites, because I think this initiative can really change the landscape

05:42.800 --> 05:47.760
of the internet of the future, is the next generation internet.

05:47.760 --> 05:56.320
And we provide hundreds of software projects, help, and organize their license compliance.

05:56.320 --> 06:04.320
And for example, we help them implement our reuse specifications, and between other legal

06:04.320 --> 06:05.320
initiatives.

06:05.320 --> 06:13.480
In the policy side, I've been working mainly in helping people to control their own devices

06:13.480 --> 06:15.560
with the help of free software.

06:15.560 --> 06:22.800
In this regard, I've been spearheading the device neutrality initiative and the router-free

06:22.800 --> 06:24.840
to campaign.

06:24.840 --> 06:30.120
What is device neutrality, and what does this include?

06:30.120 --> 06:35.520
This is a fundamental concept, and to explain this, I would like to start with an example.

06:35.520 --> 06:41.720
Let's imagine that you have bought a smart phone, a shiny new smart phone, right?

06:41.720 --> 06:46.800
And you are thrilled to learn and discover all that your device can deliver.

06:46.800 --> 06:52.320
You want it to install apps, use camera, access the internet, run games, enjoy all that

06:52.320 --> 06:54.480
your equipment can perform.

06:54.480 --> 07:01.000
However, I think everybody who has bought his smartphones in the last years faced this

07:01.000 --> 07:02.000
problem.

07:02.000 --> 07:07.720
You begin to perceive that something is not quite correct, I would say, because in order

07:07.720 --> 07:13.080
to start your phone, you are prompted to create an online account for using this device.

07:13.080 --> 07:14.480
This is the first thing.

07:14.480 --> 07:22.680
Secondly, you start to perceive that you are limited in how you download or install new

07:22.680 --> 07:25.520
apps and programs.

07:25.520 --> 07:32.040
Perhaps you are allowed only to download new apps through the manufacturers or the vendor's

07:32.040 --> 07:34.640
app store or marketplace.

07:34.640 --> 07:40.960
Then you are forbidden to install 30-party software, or if you wanted to install different

07:40.960 --> 07:47.360
repository, for example, F-Droid, you are not allowed, and most weirdly, you are not

07:47.360 --> 07:50.880
allowed to remove pre-installed programs.

07:50.880 --> 07:54.880
And this is really a serious issue, right?

07:54.880 --> 08:02.880
Because you are not allowed to remove programs that are occupying the device memory, space,

08:02.880 --> 08:08.520
or training its battery, or even worse, it's proprietary and you don't know what the

08:08.520 --> 08:10.440
program is doing.

08:10.440 --> 08:16.320
So perhaps you wanted to change the operating system and you are not to do that.

08:16.320 --> 08:23.840
So basically, just to sum up, this sad example that I think every consumer today in digital

08:23.840 --> 08:29.960
markets are facing, although digital devices are ubiquitous today.

08:29.960 --> 08:36.200
The number of devices on which users cannot run free software is exponentially increasing,

08:36.200 --> 08:41.560
and the consequence is an increasing loss of control over user technology.

08:41.560 --> 08:52.960
So device neutrality aims to enable consumers and users, we, to bypass these restrictions

08:52.960 --> 08:56.640
and to use free software on devices.

08:56.640 --> 08:59.800
This is all the device neutrality is all about.

08:59.800 --> 09:06.200
So basically, the name stands for devices should be neutral?

09:06.200 --> 09:13.720
Right, so the concept of neutrality here, and this is not a concept that was invented

09:13.720 --> 09:15.440
by the FSFE.

09:15.440 --> 09:21.600
Device neutrality has been around for quite some time already in Europe, I, for example,

09:21.600 --> 09:24.560
already since 2013, 2014.

09:24.560 --> 09:30.160
There were already some movements in Italy to make this concept to reach a legislation,

09:30.160 --> 09:36.400
but unfortunately, it lost some momentum and track there, but also the academic sector

09:36.400 --> 09:40.840
has been working a lot in order to define in this.

09:40.840 --> 09:47.080
So basically, and the academic sector, there's a lot of studies in the last three years

09:47.120 --> 09:55.000
working on this, and they, they realize that manufacturers, for example,

09:55.000 --> 10:01.200
smartphones, manufacturers or vendors are even internet platforms.

10:01.200 --> 10:12.680
They control specifically, specific points in the device architecture or in the device

10:12.680 --> 10:22.240
infrastructure, that prohibits end users to perform the term functions of this device.

10:22.240 --> 10:30.040
For example, as we just said, it's not possible to install different app stores or repositories

10:30.040 --> 10:37.600
or it doesn't allow to, to uninstall, pre-installed applications.

10:37.600 --> 10:42.480
So basically, these manufacturers and these vendors are even internet platforms.

10:42.480 --> 10:47.760
They have a monopoly on the terms aspects of the device.

10:47.760 --> 10:55.160
And when they have this, this monopoly, they act as a gatekeeper.

10:55.160 --> 11:02.120
They have a weak gatekeeper function controlling these aspects, these elements of devices.

11:02.120 --> 11:11.720
And they can, I can put this, and they can discriminate, they can discriminate in what

11:11.720 --> 11:18.400
functions or what software you can install on uninstall or can run or not run in it.

11:18.400 --> 11:26.080
So the neutrality aspect here, the concept of neutrality is that, is to let users to run

11:26.080 --> 11:32.280
any software that they want in order to explore the functionality of the device.

11:32.280 --> 11:41.000
In fact, this sense, they should be neutral to what the device can do, okay?

11:41.080 --> 11:48.120
All right, so it should be my choice, what kind of software I install on the device,

11:48.120 --> 11:51.320
rather than the choice of the vendor.

11:51.320 --> 12:00.080
Right, of course, that when you buy a smartphone or a computer or a tablet or, you know,

12:00.080 --> 12:05.040
this kind of device is that we are using today, that usually I like to call,

12:05.120 --> 12:12.760
there are general purpose computers, right, that you can run software, we are kind of any free software,

12:12.760 --> 12:13.840
when you buy it.

12:13.840 --> 12:22.520
Well, there are consumers that want to have indeed software already running to it,

12:22.520 --> 12:24.720
that you can already start using it.

12:24.720 --> 12:32.240
Other users prefer to have only the device that they can install by themselves operating systems,

12:32.240 --> 12:42.840
they can, you know, adapt and to configure the device in ways that he or she wants,

12:42.840 --> 12:45.760
but it is a choice.

12:45.760 --> 12:52.440
Yes, so the device, since it's a general purpose computing, it has the capacity

12:52.440 --> 12:58.960
and this capacity to permit users to run the software that they want,

12:58.960 --> 13:05.640
especially when regards to free software, should be protected, should be safeguarded,

13:05.640 --> 13:09.920
and that's what we want with this initiative.

13:09.920 --> 13:13.000
All right, thank you so much for covering the basics of me.

13:13.000 --> 13:21.760
What would you say are the problems that users are facing if device neutrality is not a given standard?

13:21.760 --> 13:30.720
Right, so as I said, the manufacturers, the vendors, the internet platforms,

13:30.720 --> 13:40.720
the gatekeepers, this concept, they control crucial aspects of device operating systems,

13:40.720 --> 13:45.880
app stores, browsers, and perhaps even key online services.

13:45.920 --> 13:51.080
And in general terms, these gatekeepers, they achieve this control,

13:51.080 --> 13:58.440
they achieve this monopoly by a restricting software freedom.

13:58.440 --> 14:03.040
So gatekeepers limit or prevent users installing different operating systems,

14:03.040 --> 14:08.440
browsers that today is very important because we are using browsers more and more,

14:08.480 --> 14:21.200
we are spending more time in browser, using the internet and so gatekeepers,

14:21.200 --> 14:28.480
they restrict our ability to run free software, they restrict software freedom.

14:28.480 --> 14:34.840
But they also lock the device down, they hinder interoperability, for example,

14:34.880 --> 14:42.400
they exercise type control over APIs, they apply proprietary standards,

14:42.400 --> 14:47.440
they hamper functionalities and block access to drivers and hardware.

14:47.440 --> 14:56.880
And they also put end users and consumers inside silos, if we can say like this, if you will,

14:56.880 --> 15:01.280
and they increase switching costs of the devices.

15:01.320 --> 15:07.200
Gatekeepers keep users in these wallet gardens or in silos,

15:07.200 --> 15:14.120
they tie devices to online accounts, bundle app stores and hamper data portability,

15:14.120 --> 15:18.320
making it harder for users to switch software devices or event services.

15:18.320 --> 15:25.640
So basically these are the difficulties that consumers are facing with their devices nowadays.

15:25.680 --> 15:31.240
And how is the FSFE and especially you in this case, supporting device neutrality?

15:32.920 --> 15:40.080
Right, so first we need to understand the causes and we have been,

15:40.080 --> 15:46.840
yeah, as I said, using a lot of concepts that has been developed over the years

15:46.840 --> 15:52.480
by regulators, by the academic sector,

15:52.480 --> 15:58.680
by the free software community itself, because when we see today,

15:58.680 --> 16:04.680
there's a lot of free software alternatives that help users to have much,

16:04.680 --> 16:07.120
much more control over devices.

16:07.120 --> 16:14.760
For example, alternative app stores, alternative browsers, drivers and et cetera.

16:14.760 --> 16:21.600
And we had to adapt to the concept of device neutrality

16:21.600 --> 16:26.600
to and from the perspective of a free software.

16:26.600 --> 16:31.560
And we came out with demands when someone asks,

16:31.560 --> 16:37.240
so what the FSFE is asking for device neutrality?

16:37.240 --> 16:42.680
And in order to use is to regain control over devices,

16:42.680 --> 16:49.360
we think that device neutrality translates into a software freedom.

16:49.400 --> 16:53.920
Regaining control of devices requires safe guiding software freedom.

16:53.920 --> 16:58.720
Users should have the ability to install and uninstall any software,

16:58.720 --> 17:02.000
including operating systems and app stores.

17:02.000 --> 17:07.400
Gatekeepers should provide users the same access privileges

17:07.400 --> 17:10.640
to third party applications as to the pre-installed ones.

17:10.640 --> 17:12.240
So this is very important.

17:12.240 --> 17:19.240
But not only that, we are also against B lock-ins.

17:19.240 --> 17:23.600
We advocate for higher degrees of interoperability,

17:23.600 --> 17:27.360
why the implementation of open standards

17:27.360 --> 17:31.680
in the different aspects and dimensional of devices.

17:31.680 --> 17:36.440
And we promote easier access to APIs specifications

17:36.440 --> 17:40.240
and functionalities invoked by 30-parties apps.

17:40.240 --> 17:47.160
So, and we also the third point

17:47.160 --> 17:50.440
that composed our understanding of device neutrality

17:50.440 --> 17:56.120
is that end users should have control over data in their devices.

17:56.120 --> 18:00.600
So breaking monopolies over devices necessarily requires

18:00.600 --> 18:04.800
empowering users to control their own data on their equipment.

18:07.000 --> 18:11.000
That's why end users should be able to easily transfer personal data

18:11.000 --> 18:15.280
from apps operating systems and across devices.

18:15.280 --> 18:24.520
Most importantly for us, the formats of the standards

18:24.520 --> 18:28.080
that this data portability and this data interoperability

18:28.080 --> 18:30.880
should be, should abide, open standards

18:30.880 --> 18:35.440
and common interfaces for data transfer.

18:35.440 --> 18:41.720
However, all these demands, they are materialized

18:41.760 --> 18:45.280
in several initiatives that we have been running

18:45.280 --> 18:47.800
in the last years.

18:47.800 --> 18:52.560
For example, we engaged with European institutions

18:52.560 --> 18:55.840
in the legislative process of digital markets act.

18:55.840 --> 18:59.480
It's a very important legislation

18:59.480 --> 19:01.600
that entered in force last year.

19:01.600 --> 19:06.000
But we have been working with several decision makers

19:06.000 --> 19:09.680
and policy makers in order to promote

19:09.680 --> 19:14.960
device neutrality principles that I just mentioned in the law.

19:14.960 --> 19:19.480
And we were very happy to see that several of them

19:19.480 --> 19:21.920
were established in the law.

19:21.920 --> 19:26.080
So now we can say that device neutrality,

19:26.080 --> 19:27.800
at least in the legislative level,

19:27.800 --> 19:30.360
is already a reality in Europe.

19:30.360 --> 19:35.320
But we need to work further to implement this on practice.

19:35.360 --> 19:40.600
And this leads perhaps to one also a different activity

19:40.600 --> 19:44.800
that I've been working in the FSFE that is router freedom.

19:44.800 --> 19:48.000
And in this case, we now come to router freedom

19:48.000 --> 19:52.640
as this is the other campaign that you're working on.

19:52.640 --> 19:54.400
What is router freedom about?

19:54.400 --> 19:58.920
Could you quickly recap the connection to device neutrality

19:58.920 --> 20:05.000
for me and how router freedom came into life?

20:05.000 --> 20:06.000
Right.

20:06.000 --> 20:12.080
So as you mentioned, device neutrality is, although it's

20:12.080 --> 20:15.680
very simple to understand, the demands for it

20:15.680 --> 20:19.800
is just we require software freedom on devices.

20:19.800 --> 20:24.920
We advocate against locking, vendor locking

20:24.920 --> 20:30.000
in devices, and users should have control over data.

20:30.000 --> 20:35.720
These are very close, basic to the free software community.

20:35.720 --> 20:39.920
Because historically, that's what the community

20:39.920 --> 20:42.160
has allowed to do with free software.

20:42.160 --> 20:43.560
And free software power is usually

20:43.560 --> 20:45.800
to do this with devices, right?

20:45.800 --> 20:51.400
But the bigger the gatekeepers are,

20:51.400 --> 20:55.560
more control they have over the supply chain.

20:55.560 --> 21:00.160
And more control they have over those bottlenecks on devices.

21:00.160 --> 21:03.240
And that's why implementing device neutrality

21:03.240 --> 21:05.760
and practice is challenging.

21:05.760 --> 21:09.120
Because in the end, we have to challenge

21:09.120 --> 21:12.960
the economic and policy power of these very large

21:12.960 --> 21:15.680
and powerful companies.

21:15.680 --> 21:22.120
But router freedom is a very dedicated also initiative.

21:22.120 --> 21:25.920
Because it deals with a very basic level

21:25.920 --> 21:28.040
of device neutrality.

21:28.040 --> 21:34.920
We want that users and consumers have the right

21:34.920 --> 21:40.160
to choose their own devices when connecting to the internet.

21:40.160 --> 21:40.960
Period.

21:40.960 --> 21:42.480
That's very simple.

21:42.480 --> 21:46.880
So router freedom is that you should be able to choose

21:46.880 --> 21:50.160
your own router or modern.

21:50.160 --> 21:53.400
But even on this level of simplicity,

21:53.400 --> 21:56.160
at least conceptual simplicity, in Europe

21:56.160 --> 22:00.080
has been very hard to implement this.

22:00.080 --> 22:03.560
And router freedom has been running already for years.

22:03.560 --> 22:06.120
And we have been experimenting.

22:06.120 --> 22:10.160
And we have been engaging with policymakers, with regulators,

22:10.160 --> 22:16.360
in several levels, in the national level, in the European level,

22:16.360 --> 22:21.520
in order to make this a reality.

22:21.520 --> 22:25.360
We defend, we argue, and we advocate,

22:25.360 --> 22:33.520
that users should not be obliged to use only the router

22:33.520 --> 22:37.320
that the internet services provider gives them.

22:37.320 --> 22:40.120
And sometimes they give these routers to users,

22:40.120 --> 22:43.480
and they also charge for it.

22:43.480 --> 22:48.400
So they are making money twice with routers.

22:48.400 --> 22:52.160
And all that we want is that end users

22:52.160 --> 22:55.760
should have the ability to just buy their own routers

22:55.760 --> 23:01.880
and to run and to install free software on their routers.

23:01.880 --> 23:06.120
And because there are free software operating

23:06.120 --> 23:10.160
systems for routers, and that's all.

23:10.160 --> 23:15.600
And what perhaps someone can say, but is that important?

23:15.600 --> 23:18.160
Router is perhaps just this equipment

23:18.160 --> 23:20.760
that nobody cares is getting there,

23:20.760 --> 23:25.280
getting a little bit dusty in the corner of your room.

23:25.280 --> 23:33.960
But no, I would like to highlight that routers

23:33.960 --> 23:38.680
are very important piece of equipment.

23:38.680 --> 23:40.520
Let's put this way.

23:40.520 --> 23:44.560
Your whole internet traffic, encryption, backups,

23:44.560 --> 23:47.400
communication, shopping, writings, business

23:47.400 --> 23:51.880
interaction, and so on, are transferred over the internet

23:51.880 --> 23:52.920
through your router.

23:52.920 --> 23:55.600
So the router is your gateway to the internet.

23:55.600 --> 24:00.520
If your router is not free, your digital freedoms

24:00.520 --> 24:02.440
are like to be compromised.

24:02.440 --> 24:05.760
So that's why router freedom should be understood

24:05.760 --> 24:08.440
as quite important.

24:08.440 --> 24:10.640
And it affects everybody, because everybody

24:10.640 --> 24:15.360
or nearly everybody is using a router.

24:15.360 --> 24:21.160
And this is for, like, it affects a lot of people.

24:21.160 --> 24:24.800
And as you already said, it's quite,

24:24.800 --> 24:27.560
sometimes it's a bit hard to think about a router

24:27.560 --> 24:31.840
as something very important that you should run free software

24:31.840 --> 24:35.560
on it, because it is the device that

24:35.560 --> 24:40.080
channels all your communication.

24:40.080 --> 24:42.160
As I said, I completely agree with you,

24:42.160 --> 24:44.960
but that router freedom is not merely

24:44.960 --> 24:46.880
top for expect.

24:46.880 --> 24:48.840
It affects all of us.

24:48.840 --> 24:52.880
And the problem is, is that historically,

24:52.880 --> 24:57.120
internet services providers, they

24:57.120 --> 25:01.280
thought that the router would be an element

25:01.280 --> 25:03.120
of their own infrastructure.

25:03.120 --> 25:06.640
So it would be their equipment that they

25:06.640 --> 25:09.240
would put inside our own home.

25:09.240 --> 25:15.760
But it's not like this, because already in the 80s,

25:15.760 --> 25:17.600
this has changed.

25:17.600 --> 25:24.280
And as with telephones, already we saw in the history

25:24.280 --> 25:27.440
of the telecom sector, that telephones,

25:27.440 --> 25:32.760
they started to be understood as a private equipment.

25:32.760 --> 25:37.320
And people could change their own telephones that they wanted.

25:37.320 --> 25:39.800
And it's the same with routers.

25:39.800 --> 25:43.920
But I just wanted to point out that every time

25:43.920 --> 25:48.960
that new technology emerges, gatekeepers or telecom

25:48.960 --> 25:52.720
providers, they usually take a very restrictive approach

25:52.720 --> 25:55.480
to this, and they wanted to keep this equipment

25:55.480 --> 25:59.600
under their own control and not giving users control over it.

25:59.600 --> 26:03.920
So they always raise arguments of security,

26:03.920 --> 26:07.480
of integrity, of the network, and et cetera.

26:07.480 --> 26:12.960
But our experience has shown that the risks of end users

26:12.960 --> 26:16.880
using their own equipment to the public network

26:16.880 --> 26:18.120
is very, very low.

26:18.120 --> 26:20.960
It's very low.

26:20.960 --> 26:26.000
But the benefits for users having their own equipment

26:26.000 --> 26:28.160
is much greater.

26:28.160 --> 26:34.880
So basically, router freedom allows the router market

26:34.880 --> 26:38.120
to thrive, because with more competition,

26:38.120 --> 26:41.760
there are several types of routers that people can use

26:41.760 --> 26:47.440
and can adapt and can configure it to their own needs.

26:47.440 --> 26:54.040
So people can update the parentheses of the routers by their own,

26:54.040 --> 26:56.600
so avoiding security issues.

26:56.600 --> 27:00.760
So router freedom, in fact, benefits not only users,

27:00.760 --> 27:03.600
but benefit the entire digital ecosystem.

27:03.600 --> 27:06.080
It benefits the digital markets as well.

27:06.080 --> 27:08.280
So that's why with router freedoms,

27:08.280 --> 27:13.120
we invite internet service providers

27:13.120 --> 27:18.360
to take a more lax approach and to allow end users

27:18.360 --> 27:20.840
to use their own routers.

27:20.840 --> 27:26.560
But I would say that this has to be done through regulation.

27:26.720 --> 27:30.520
Because without regulation, the tendency

27:30.520 --> 27:33.800
is that ISPs, internet service providers,

27:33.800 --> 27:36.920
they take a very restrictive approach to this.

27:36.920 --> 27:39.600
We have been quite successful on this front.

27:39.600 --> 27:45.600
I must say, Bonnie, that on the regulatory front,

27:45.600 --> 27:47.880
we have been interacting and working

27:47.880 --> 27:51.440
with regulators all over Europe.

27:51.440 --> 27:56.120
And I'm happy to tell you that several countries

27:56.120 --> 27:58.040
already adopted router freedom.

27:58.040 --> 28:03.040
For example, Germany, the Netherlands, Finland,

28:04.840 --> 28:09.000
most recently, in last week, Greece

28:09.000 --> 28:13.600
has also started regulating router freedom.

28:13.600 --> 28:17.400
We have high hopes for Belgium, for example.

28:17.400 --> 28:20.560
So we have been monitoring the entire landscape

28:20.560 --> 28:23.880
and we have been working with regulators

28:23.880 --> 28:29.840
to tell them why router freedom is important,

28:29.840 --> 28:32.360
not only for end users' perspective,

28:32.360 --> 28:35.960
but for consumer protection, for competition,

28:35.960 --> 28:38.160
for sustainability, because users

28:38.160 --> 28:40.280
can use longer their own routers

28:40.280 --> 28:44.240
and not have to change device frequently.

28:44.240 --> 28:46.280
So these are mainly the arguments

28:46.280 --> 28:49.520
that we have been trying to bring to regulators.

28:50.520 --> 28:53.200
As you already mentioned,

28:53.200 --> 28:57.480
the status of router freedom is getting better and better.

28:57.480 --> 29:00.840
I hear that you also have a survey for this.

29:01.960 --> 29:04.200
Can you tell me a bit more about the survey

29:04.200 --> 29:08.960
and who can participate in it?

29:08.960 --> 29:12.160
What does it ask you for questions?

29:12.160 --> 29:15.720
Is it an expert survey or does everybody can take part?

29:16.680 --> 29:17.520
Right.

29:17.520 --> 29:21.880
So this survey has been running already for some time

29:21.880 --> 29:26.880
and our audience is quite broad.

29:27.680 --> 29:29.520
There is a question on the survey

29:29.520 --> 29:31.360
that you can do a self-assessment

29:31.360 --> 29:34.080
if you see yourself as an expert or not,

29:34.080 --> 29:37.400
but every opinion counts.

29:37.400 --> 29:40.760
Because one issue that we have been facing the last years

29:40.760 --> 29:44.560
is that even regulators, they don't have a clear picture

29:44.560 --> 29:48.400
of the problems that end users are facing with their own routers.

29:48.400 --> 29:51.840
And we wanted to change this raising empirical data

29:51.840 --> 29:56.000
to show them what kind of problems end users are facing

29:56.000 --> 29:57.840
with their own router.

29:57.840 --> 30:02.840
In 2016, a law on net neutrality was introduced in Europe

30:06.600 --> 30:08.840
and one of the articles of this law

30:08.840 --> 30:11.160
is saying that end users have the right

30:11.160 --> 30:14.360
to choose their own terminal equipment.

30:14.360 --> 30:20.360
And we have been working on this law to make this a reality.

30:20.360 --> 30:23.720
But the problem is with the teleconsector is that

30:23.720 --> 30:25.120
in order to implement this right,

30:25.120 --> 30:27.160
there is a lot of technical regulations

30:27.160 --> 30:30.960
that should be implemented by telecom regulators

30:30.960 --> 30:37.560
and sometimes they can take a relatively physical approach to this right.

30:37.640 --> 30:43.720
And we would like to avoid this showing them

30:43.720 --> 30:48.160
that there are violations of this very basic right.

30:48.160 --> 30:50.440
There's a violation of net neutrality

30:50.440 --> 30:55.520
when users are not being allowed to use their own routers.

30:55.520 --> 31:01.320
I'm happy to say that this survey is a success

31:01.360 --> 31:07.640
because more than 1,300 end users,

31:07.640 --> 31:11.040
so people all over Europe had took part on this

31:11.040 --> 31:13.600
and they have been related a lot of problems

31:13.600 --> 31:16.080
that they have been encountered.

31:16.080 --> 31:21.440
So this has been very helpful for us to trace

31:21.440 --> 31:23.160
and to map these problems.

31:23.160 --> 31:27.680
But we also ask them if they think that router freedom is important

31:27.680 --> 31:33.760
and it's quite nice to see that more than 90% of the respondents

31:33.760 --> 31:36.680
said that they think that router freedom is important.

31:36.680 --> 31:38.600
Router freedom is important for security.

31:38.600 --> 31:42.040
Router freedom is important for their old questions that we put there.

31:42.040 --> 31:47.680
And so yeah, these are the results of the survey

31:47.680 --> 31:53.760
that we are planning to publish in the coming weeks in the coming months.

31:53.800 --> 31:57.560
But are the next steps for router freedom?

31:59.520 --> 32:06.520
Right, so yes, it's not a given effect nowadays.

32:06.840 --> 32:10.320
So we have a lot of work in front of us

32:10.320 --> 32:15.320
and we will continue to work on this in the years to come.

32:15.320 --> 32:23.320
So a device neutrality, as I said, it became a reality just last year.

32:23.680 --> 32:26.600
And a legislative reality, I would say.

32:26.600 --> 32:29.440
But as I just mentioned with router freedom,

32:29.440 --> 32:34.440
there was a law in 2016 already grinned in this to end users.

32:34.440 --> 32:39.680
And in 2023, this is not a reality still in Europe, right?

32:39.680 --> 32:44.240
So it requires a lot of engagement of civil society actors.

32:44.240 --> 32:47.120
It requires a lot of work.

32:47.120 --> 32:53.120
And that's why I think that the type of efforts

32:53.120 --> 32:59.200
that we are making within the FSFE to make this reality,

32:59.200 --> 33:03.440
yeah, it's something that we need to keep doing

33:03.440 --> 33:06.480
and not to take that for granted.

33:06.480 --> 33:12.720
And is there anything that people can do to participate

33:12.720 --> 33:16.520
and to support router freedom or device neutrality?

33:16.520 --> 33:18.520
Absolutely, absolutely.

33:18.680 --> 33:22.800
So I'll start with router freedom.

33:22.800 --> 33:26.560
So router freedom, you can participate,

33:26.560 --> 33:31.560
taking part on our survey, the link is on our website.

33:35.160 --> 33:36.400
You can...

33:36.400 --> 33:37.600
And in the show notes.

33:38.640 --> 33:44.640
Yes, and help us understanding better the situation on our country.

33:44.720 --> 33:47.560
There are countries that we have a lot of information already,

33:47.560 --> 33:52.000
for example, in Germany, are in other countries

33:52.000 --> 33:53.800
where router freedom is a reality.

33:53.800 --> 33:56.320
But there is too room for improvement.

33:56.320 --> 33:59.160
So we really would like to see engagement from people

33:59.160 --> 34:00.760
from other countries as well.

34:01.840 --> 34:06.160
And you can talk to other people about it.

34:06.160 --> 34:10.760
You can, for example, if you know how to configure a router,

34:10.760 --> 34:12.920
if you know how to use a router,

34:12.920 --> 34:16.320
perhaps you can talk to your colleagues, to your friends,

34:16.360 --> 34:20.880
to your family, that perhaps they should update the router

34:20.880 --> 34:25.880
and to have a router that is perhaps more suitable to them.

34:28.400 --> 34:32.840
You can also support us, right?

34:32.840 --> 34:36.320
In our work, you can translate our texts.

34:36.320 --> 34:38.320
It's the same for device neutrality.

34:38.320 --> 34:43.120
So the situation with device neutrality

34:43.120 --> 34:44.480
is a little bit more complex

34:44.480 --> 34:47.280
because when you buy your smartphone,

34:47.280 --> 34:51.200
sometimes you are not allowed to do that.

34:51.200 --> 34:55.360
But if you have this ability

34:55.360 --> 34:57.920
with your device to install free software,

34:57.920 --> 35:02.560
please do so and help free software projects.

35:02.560 --> 35:05.960
Install FDroid on your smartphone, for example,

35:05.960 --> 35:09.760
use more free software on your devices.

35:09.760 --> 35:12.360
Install, try to install perhaps

35:12.360 --> 35:15.800
a free software operating system on your laptop,

35:15.800 --> 35:18.640
contribute to this project,

35:18.640 --> 35:23.240
in strength of the community, spread the word

35:23.240 --> 35:25.760
because we need to have a flourish

35:25.760 --> 35:30.560
and health community in order to make our rights a reality.

35:30.560 --> 35:32.080
Thank you so much, Lucas.

35:33.320 --> 35:35.120
Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here.

35:35.120 --> 35:38.320
And not yet quite done.

35:38.320 --> 35:41.720
The last question that I have for you is,

35:41.720 --> 35:46.800
you have all this connection with technology, society.

35:46.800 --> 35:50.360
You pointed out how people can participate.

35:50.360 --> 35:53.160
But what would be the software that you say,

35:53.160 --> 35:54.920
oh, the software is so awesome.

35:54.920 --> 35:57.760
My life would be different without the software.

35:59.760 --> 36:01.560
I love free software activities.

36:01.560 --> 36:03.960
One of my favorites within the FSFE.

36:03.960 --> 36:07.960
And if you check, perhaps my stars on social media

36:07.960 --> 36:10.080
on Macedon, you see that every year,

36:10.080 --> 36:15.440
I have a huge list of free software that I'm thinking

36:15.440 --> 36:20.440
because all of them makes our life easier, nicer,

36:23.480 --> 36:27.160
and it allows us indeed to control technology.

36:27.160 --> 36:31.280
I would be a little bit unfair in this opportunity

36:31.280 --> 36:33.960
that you're giving me here in this very important podcast.

36:33.960 --> 36:37.160
Just think just one software.

36:37.200 --> 36:43.720
Because, as I said, taking on a broader perspective,

36:43.720 --> 36:45.440
there is a lot of them.

36:45.440 --> 36:50.440
And there also in back end also software

36:51.240 --> 36:54.720
that allows this front end software to run, right?

36:54.720 --> 36:58.360
And there is this infrastructure software running on servers

36:58.360 --> 37:02.800
and in other elements that allows these applications

37:02.800 --> 37:05.320
that we are now using.

37:05.320 --> 37:08.160
And more and more that we are working with device neutrality,

37:08.160 --> 37:13.160
we see how important drivers and all of these frameworks

37:13.720 --> 37:17.080
are also very important in order to allow people

37:17.080 --> 37:19.440
to control technology.

37:19.440 --> 37:23.200
Therefore, I would like to thank generously

37:23.200 --> 37:27.880
all the free software developers who have been working hard.

37:27.880 --> 37:31.480
Sometimes without nobody saying taking

37:31.480 --> 37:34.680
or without financial contributions,

37:34.720 --> 37:37.440
but I just want to say that their work

37:37.440 --> 37:40.360
is very, very important for all of people

37:41.360 --> 37:44.320
that are trying to safeguard

37:44.320 --> 37:47.400
or to have better policies on for their digital rights.

37:48.320 --> 37:49.160
Thank you very much.

37:49.160 --> 37:51.240
This was a nice closing word.

37:51.240 --> 37:54.880
And also, as you already said, it's very important

37:54.880 --> 37:59.560
to say thank you to them and to show our gratitude,

37:59.560 --> 38:03.240
but to also sometimes support free software financially

38:03.240 --> 38:06.280
and to not take it for granted or others work on it.

38:06.280 --> 38:09.080
Yes, thank you very much for having me here.

38:09.080 --> 38:10.840
It was a glitch pleasure.

38:10.840 --> 38:11.640
Thank you, Lucas.

38:11.640 --> 38:12.640
Awesome to have you here.

38:12.640 --> 38:14.160
Thank you so much.

38:14.160 --> 38:16.520
This was the software freedom podcast.

38:16.520 --> 38:18.640
If you liked this episode, please recommend it

38:18.640 --> 38:20.560
to your friends and rate it.

38:20.560 --> 38:24.240
Also subscribe to make sure you will get the next episode.

38:24.240 --> 38:25.960
This podcast is presented to you

38:25.960 --> 38:28.320
by the Free Software Foundation Bureau.

38:28.320 --> 38:32.160
We are a charity that works on promoting software freedom.

38:32.200 --> 38:33.600
If you like our work,

38:33.600 --> 38:36.680
please consider supporting us with our donation.

38:36.680 --> 38:40.800
You find more information on the fsfe.org slash the nade.

Back to the episode SFP#20