Transcript of SFP#21: Exploring Software Freedom in European Politics with Lina Ceballos
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WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:19.520 Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. This podcast is presented to you by 00:19.520 --> 00:24.840 the Free Software Foundation Europe. We are a charity that empowers users to take control 00:24.840 --> 00:30.280 of technology. I'm Bonnie Merring and our guest for today's episode is Lina Ceballos. 00:30.920 --> 00:36.600 Lina is part of the FSF East Legal and Policy Team. She actively coordinates a 00:36.600 --> 00:43.000 Reuse Initiative and contributes to the Public Money Public Code campaign. In this episode, 00:43.000 --> 00:49.080 we will dive into Lina's activities and engagement at the European level. Hair cloth monitoring 00:49.080 --> 00:55.400 of the legislative process within the European institutions enables her to actively participate 00:55.400 --> 01:01.560 in discussion with decision makers and strengthen the position of free software within new acts 01:01.560 --> 01:06.360 and policies. For this episode, we will talk about the Interoperable Europe Act. 01:07.480 --> 01:12.920 Lina will share her insights on the act and also explain the importance of our clear free 01:12.920 --> 01:19.080 software first since within the Interoperable Europe Act. Welcome to the podcast, Lina. I'm so 01:19.080 --> 01:25.000 glad to have you here. Thank you so much. Hi, Bonnie. Thank you very much to you for the invitation. 01:25.560 --> 01:29.480 Lina, I was wondering what's your favorite part about free software? 01:32.040 --> 01:38.760 I think what I like the most about free software is how actually empowers people. 01:39.640 --> 01:46.440 In many ways, of course, to control the technology they use. But I feel like in general, 01:46.440 --> 01:56.680 empowers people to own their software, their data, and basically the digital world we live in now 01:56.680 --> 02:03.400 at the moment. Awesome. Thank you so much. So you and I, we have been working together for the 02:03.400 --> 02:12.360 FSFE for now quite a long time, at least some years. You do a lot of policy work for the FSFE. 02:13.160 --> 02:17.480 Among other initiatives, you have been involved with public money public code, 02:17.480 --> 02:23.240 and you have also done a lot of policy work on an European level. Can you tell me a bit about 02:23.240 --> 02:30.840 your work for the FSFE? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I like to maybe start to say that, 02:31.320 --> 02:37.080 yeah, I feel like I've been involved a lot with the public money public code mainly because we 02:37.080 --> 02:44.440 believe that it's a framework that we always use to work in other activities and these are the 02:44.440 --> 02:50.600 arguments that we pretty much always bring on the table whenever we do a policy work. 02:52.040 --> 02:58.680 But yeah, maybe to focus a little bit more on the European level. So yeah, for the last month, 02:58.680 --> 03:04.680 I've been working a lot on the policy area mainly on the European level. And this means that we 03:04.680 --> 03:13.240 monitor and we identify first what kind of digital policies are about to be introduced or have 03:13.240 --> 03:21.080 been recently been introduced by the European Commission. And that might have an effect on users 03:21.080 --> 03:27.640 and or the free software as a whole as an ecosystem. And depending of course on our resources, 03:27.640 --> 03:32.920 then we decide to step in in some of them. So we like to all we have to pick out fights. 03:33.960 --> 03:41.080 So maybe to give a very brief overview of the legislative process in the EU level, 03:41.080 --> 03:44.440 I think that makes also easier for me to explain a little bit what we do. 03:45.320 --> 03:52.680 So basically, the European Commission proposed a legislation because this is the institution 03:52.680 --> 04:00.120 that has such power to introduce and to propose new legislation. And then after the Commission does 04:00.120 --> 04:05.480 this, then the text goes to the European Parliament and also to the Council. And then at the same time, 04:05.480 --> 04:11.800 then they just come up with their own text. So in the end, we will have kind of like three different 04:11.800 --> 04:17.720 texts, one from the Commission, one from the Parliament and one from the Council. And then after 04:18.040 --> 04:22.280 the Council and the Parliament are done with their texts, then they sit together together with 04:22.280 --> 04:28.440 the Commission and then they come up with the final text, which if it's adopted, then that's 04:28.440 --> 04:34.120 considered low and then there is implementation phase in member states and so on. But this is more or 04:34.120 --> 04:43.880 less the kind of overview of the whole legislative process. So what we do is that we try to step in 04:43.960 --> 04:49.560 as early as possible. So usually before the Commission proposed something, there is already a consultation 04:49.560 --> 04:55.560 phase. So we try to participate in consultations from the Commission. Quickly let me cut in there. 04:55.560 --> 05:02.120 So you take a look at like all the proposed ideas that are floating around and you're saying, 05:02.120 --> 05:08.040 oh, this sounds very interesting. This is a topic that could protect user freedom and that's 05:08.040 --> 05:14.440 important for software for software freedom. Exactly. Then you say, okay, this is now the consultation 05:14.440 --> 05:22.920 phase. Now we step in and we try to implement free software or we try to protect free software. 05:23.560 --> 05:30.120 Exactly. From the very beginning, even before the Commission proposed something, because I mean, 05:30.120 --> 05:34.280 in the end, once the Commission proposed, then that's already the final text from the Commission. 05:34.280 --> 05:40.520 So what we try to do is also to participate in such phase from the Commission part in the 05:40.520 --> 05:46.760 consultations. And as you said, then we try to identify maybe, of course, we're trying to follow 05:46.760 --> 05:54.120 that digital policies. And then in that regard, then if we see that this might be a legislation that 05:54.120 --> 06:01.000 can actually help to protect users and to enhance free software freedom, then we step in. 06:01.080 --> 06:05.800 But also, on the other way around, if it's actually undermining software freedom or if it's 06:05.800 --> 06:10.040 actually going against this, then we also step in. Actually, maybe in this case, this is more 06:10.040 --> 06:16.280 necessary to step in as well. Do you see a lot of those like undermining software freedom or 06:17.560 --> 06:25.080 because I like with author and all the work that there's done for software freedom on an European 06:25.080 --> 06:31.240 level, I sometimes have to feeling, oh, yeah, this is going to be great. But then on the other hand, 06:31.240 --> 06:37.640 I also hear old free software is not considered this act and there. And we need to work on that. 06:37.640 --> 06:44.280 So what you say keeps the balance or I mean, in this case, since we're now we're talking about 06:44.280 --> 06:48.840 the Commission, I would say there has been an improvement over the last years. I mean, they already 06:49.560 --> 06:56.600 have an open source strategy. So I feel like over the last eight years, the Commission has been 06:56.600 --> 07:02.680 aware of the role that free software can play in digital policies. And I mean, in general, 07:02.680 --> 07:09.160 the digitalization of Europe. However, I would say most of the times these documents come with some 07:09.160 --> 07:17.400 blue holes. So I wouldn't say the perfect they need some improvement. And of course, with new 07:17.400 --> 07:26.280 technologies such as the AI or this new technologies that I popping up, then there is even more 07:26.280 --> 07:31.960 to catch up, I would say. But yeah, but just to answer your question, I would say in general, 07:32.520 --> 07:38.600 the Commission is pretty aware of free software. Makes it just easier to talk to them or is it 07:38.600 --> 07:46.280 like still quite hard to get your points across? I mean, in this case, then I would say, 07:47.320 --> 07:54.840 I mean, we engage also in like with the Commission. And we try to because in the end, they are the 07:54.840 --> 08:01.000 ones that have a very overview of the whole process because they participate in the parliament 08:01.000 --> 08:08.520 discussions as well as on the council discussions. So they have a very overview of where this is going 08:08.680 --> 08:17.080 kind of or the legislation is going. However, once they propose, then that's their text. So there 08:17.080 --> 08:25.160 is nothing else to do there, rather than just keep pushing your demands in more like, yeah, we just 08:25.160 --> 08:30.600 by talking to them and so on. But in this case, once the Commission proposed something, then we try 08:30.600 --> 08:35.480 to focus on the million the parliament because I mean, the European parliament is one of the 08:35.480 --> 08:40.200 parliament that is the most transparent, I have to say. So you can basically 08:42.440 --> 08:50.280 as for documents, you can see, you can attend debates, you can see the discussion, you can 08:50.280 --> 08:55.640 it's pretty transparent. So it's also pretty easy to, I wouldn't say pretty easy, but it's way 08:55.640 --> 09:05.240 easier to influence and to advocate with the parliament. So I think in this case, we try to 09:05.240 --> 09:10.840 concentrate in in the parliament and also because after the Commission proposed the text, then 09:11.480 --> 09:16.040 it's on the parliament and the council to come up with a new text as well, if they think it has to 09:16.040 --> 09:23.320 be improved. So I think this is where the room for improvement is actually. All right. What is the 09:23.320 --> 09:28.680 part you like most about just very like it sounds like a lot of talking with a lot of people 09:29.480 --> 09:34.920 and sometimes I had imagined it's quite hard to keep track of all the conversations and 09:35.400 --> 09:43.880 yet to stay informed about all the ongoing. So I do think it's quite a lot to do, but what's the 09:43.880 --> 09:51.960 part you like most about it? Yeah, definitely is a lot of talking. So please also interrupt me if 09:51.960 --> 09:59.800 you feel like I'm talking too much because I'm like to talk. Yeah, but I mean, I really feel like 09:59.800 --> 10:04.840 in general, what I like the most about my job is that I feel that I'm doing something good 10:05.560 --> 10:13.960 for society, which in the end is what it really matters to me and then just like to go more into 10:13.960 --> 10:20.920 details than I really like this. I feel like the whole process of advocating in the EU level is 10:20.920 --> 10:26.680 just fascinating because you have to meet people that sometimes you are not really aligned with 10:26.760 --> 10:34.840 in terms of political ideologies and so on, but you just keep neutral because you have to keep 10:34.840 --> 10:40.520 the focus on what you're doing, which is in this case advocate for software freedom, for free 10:40.520 --> 10:47.720 software and beyond that, there is nothing else, right? So that makes it so kind of easy to talk to 10:47.720 --> 10:54.760 people that you would, I mean, at least that I would have thought that I would actually sit down 10:54.840 --> 11:02.040 and have a talk, right? And in this case, you have to try to convince as many people as you can 11:02.760 --> 11:08.920 and I have to feel that it's more fun to convince those that actually think the opposite 11:09.640 --> 11:18.120 than actually the ones that are already on board with you. So I think that makes it more fun. 11:19.400 --> 11:23.560 And I also have to say that it's super nice to see that something that you have worked on, 11:23.960 --> 11:31.320 like working that you have worked on, I suggest, is included in some of these documents. So 11:31.320 --> 11:39.880 it's really nice to feel that you kind of part of the whole democratic process, I would say. 11:40.520 --> 11:46.040 Awesome. Yeah, I can imagine it. I think it's quite fascinating to do it like that, yeah. 11:47.000 --> 11:54.120 Yeah, yeah, it's definitely, and I mean, I also know I think that I actually enjoy a lot is to 11:55.400 --> 12:01.160 kind of serve as a bridge between decision makers and the free software community and trying to 12:01.160 --> 12:06.920 make them speak with one another and to understand one another. Because sometimes I feel that they don't 12:06.920 --> 12:12.360 really, or sometimes they don't completely understand each other. So when you kind of translate 12:12.920 --> 12:18.280 the language from the free software community into decision makers and the other way around, 12:19.080 --> 12:24.040 then it feels it is nice to know that these two important communities are 12:24.680 --> 12:29.080 understanding each other. And you're like bringing them closer together. 12:29.880 --> 12:31.080 Yeah, I like to be distant. 12:33.080 --> 12:41.160 I see. Okay, back to the EU and European politics. 12:41.960 --> 12:47.800 What are currently the proposals you think the free software community should watch out for 12:47.800 --> 12:49.880 to ensure the protection of free software? 12:50.600 --> 12:57.080 Oh, that's a hard question. And if you don't want me to talk more than one hour, maybe let's try 12:57.080 --> 13:04.600 to get focused. But yeah, I mean, I think right now, it's really interesting to see how many 13:04.600 --> 13:11.000 digital policies are coming up or come out. And I think, I mean, I would just mention some, 13:11.160 --> 13:17.720 but I think at least from from my perspective, I would like to focus on maybe just one. 13:17.720 --> 13:23.320 So right now we have seen like over the last I think two years, then there is the ongoing AI act 13:24.120 --> 13:30.280 where we have been also quite active there. And recently last year, specifically the Cyber 13:30.280 --> 13:37.480 Resilience Act. And with this, the product liability directive, which are mainly focused on 13:37.480 --> 13:45.000 liability and free software. But also at the moment, then we have the Interoperable Europe Act, 13:45.000 --> 13:53.080 which it's also, in my perspective, a super important topic and a super important regulation 13:53.080 --> 13:59.720 that is not really catching up the attention that much as the CRA and the PLD, like the product 13:59.800 --> 14:07.640 liability directive. So yeah, why do you think this is the case that the CRA and the IA act have 14:07.640 --> 14:15.000 catched or caught a lot of attention? Yeah, I mean, I just feel that, I mean, for sure, I feel like 14:15.000 --> 14:20.600 in general AI is taking a lot of attention at the moment. And I understand why, because it is 14:21.400 --> 14:28.280 indeed a super complex technology. And I feel like the more people keep their eyes on it, then 14:28.280 --> 14:33.880 the more kind of noise it makes and the more, yeah, people are aware of it, so to say. 14:35.160 --> 14:41.160 So I feel like a lot of people are now interested in AI and regulating these technologies. 14:41.640 --> 14:45.640 And I mean, with the CRA, I think it's all at least in the free software communities, 14:45.640 --> 14:51.640 because it was the way it was proposed and it had some conflicting 14:52.520 --> 14:57.720 wording and a lot of people noticed. So it really became a huge topic. 14:58.520 --> 15:02.760 But again, nonetheless, I feel like the Interoperable Europe Act is, it's so important, 15:03.480 --> 15:08.520 because it really, I mean, it's going to try to regulate how public administrations 15:08.520 --> 15:13.320 offer digital public services to citizens. So I think this is also quite important, 15:13.320 --> 15:17.720 although it's not AI by, but it is an important topic. 15:21.320 --> 15:25.160 I do believe it is an important topic as well, just to clarify that beforehand. 15:25.720 --> 15:31.480 But before we dive into the importance of it, could you quickly explain 15:32.280 --> 15:37.560 what it is about? Like what's the Interoperable Europe Act? 15:38.280 --> 15:40.520 It's quite a tongue twister to be honest. 15:40.520 --> 15:49.800 I know, I know. It's super interesting. I've been thinking that I started to think that the 15:49.800 --> 15:53.960 better the people pronounce the topic, the more involved they are in the topic. 15:54.040 --> 15:59.240 So if you have no idea about this file, then you are going to try, like, you know, 15:59.240 --> 16:04.760 have a lot of trouble pronouncing it, but then get me wrong. I, I still struggle. 16:09.640 --> 16:16.600 So if you want to send us an recording of yourself saying Interoperable Europe Act, feel free. 16:16.760 --> 16:18.280 Yes. 16:21.480 --> 16:24.360 What is this Act all about? 16:26.200 --> 16:32.200 Yeah, okay. So basically, this is a proposal that the Commission released last year. 16:32.200 --> 16:37.320 And basically, what they want to do is to create a kind of cross-border regulation 16:38.120 --> 16:46.040 that will help the EU, but also member states for public administrations to deliver 16:46.040 --> 16:53.800 interoperable digital services. So basically, they just, they kind of want to help 16:53.800 --> 16:59.880 public administrations to deliver digital public services in a cross-border way. 17:00.840 --> 17:09.400 So here, I have to stop a little bit and maybe go back one step and maybe define what 17:09.400 --> 17:16.200 interoperability is, because I think, yeah, I think it is important. Yeah, when we're talking about 17:16.200 --> 17:22.360 interoperability and interoperable and so on to define what is actually this very funny to 17:22.360 --> 17:29.880 pronounce word. So basically, it is just the ability for information systems, devices and 17:29.880 --> 17:35.720 applications to speak with one another, basically. So just to give a very simple example, 17:35.720 --> 17:43.160 imagine that you live in Germany and then you have your car registered in Germany and then 17:43.160 --> 17:48.520 you're doing a road trip to France and then you are on your road trip and then you arrive to France. 17:49.320 --> 17:55.240 And once you arrive in France, then you want to park your car and then you go to this parking 17:55.240 --> 18:02.600 place, but it turns out that the system that they have doesn't recognize a German plate, 18:02.760 --> 18:09.640 a car plate. So you cannot actually put the plate of your car because this French system doesn't 18:09.640 --> 18:16.920 really recognize any German car registers and then you're unable to park your car into specific 18:16.920 --> 18:23.800 place. So it's this kind of things we're talking about. So I always like to give this very simple 18:23.800 --> 18:28.440 example. So people realize that it's just this kind of stuff that you don't really have to 18:29.240 --> 18:37.880 get trouble to do these very basic things across the U because things you do in your daily life and 18:37.880 --> 18:44.120 that. Exactly. Exactly. And happening like as soon as you leave one country and go to the next one. 18:44.680 --> 18:52.360 Exactly. And then this will kind of enhance the way these systems will speak with one another 18:52.360 --> 19:01.080 across borders, basically. So yeah, that's. And where does Frieza come in here? 19:02.200 --> 19:13.480 Yes, there it is. So yeah, it is, I mean, in my opinion, it is this act to really go on the 19:13.480 --> 19:20.920 direction of Frieza for first because I mean, we're talking about systems and this needs infrastructure 19:20.920 --> 19:26.600 and this needs an infrastructure that is able for the systems to speak with one another. 19:28.040 --> 19:36.440 So I really feel that Frieza for can be super helpful in this regard. And I mean, I also have to 19:36.440 --> 19:42.600 say that Frieza for is already somehow recognized in the act, but yeah, but we have already found 19:42.600 --> 19:49.800 some blue holes as well. And yeah, that's why we are kind of active in this regulation at the moment. 19:50.920 --> 19:58.040 Could you tell me a bit about the loopholes, like where they lie and yeah, how free surface 19:58.040 --> 20:05.560 basically like considered in the act? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, this is like a 20:05.560 --> 20:11.400 whole regulation. So it's quite like lengthy. And I mean, it's not as lengthy like the Cyber 20:11.400 --> 20:17.320 Resilience Act, but it's still like a regulation. So maybe I can focus a little bit more on the 20:18.280 --> 20:24.840 loopholes that we identified that affect the free software community by first explaining 20:24.840 --> 20:32.360 how they want to achieve this interoperability among the EU member states. So basically, they want 20:32.360 --> 20:40.280 to kind of introduce a sort of cooperative framework that will make mandatory the sharing 20:40.360 --> 20:49.160 and reuse between public administrations of the digital services they are offering. So they set 20:49.160 --> 20:54.520 up some kind of measures to achieve this. So for instance, one of the things that they want to 20:54.520 --> 21:06.360 introduce is governance structure. So basically, they want to introduce to a new institution, so to 21:07.080 --> 21:13.000 say, so there is the interoperable Europe board and the interoperable Europe community. 21:13.000 --> 21:21.000 So the idea is that these two interact with one another in a bottom up and up down a way. So 21:21.000 --> 21:28.200 the community will have the expertise and will give the import and so on. And the board basically 21:28.200 --> 21:35.560 will be the one taking or having the decision making power. So the board will be the one set in 21:35.560 --> 21:41.400 up agenda and decide what are the goals for the next year and how they will achieve this and so on. 21:43.160 --> 21:49.240 And here comes one of the loopholes that we have found and is that the way the board is 21:49.240 --> 21:57.400 constitute. It doesn't really include civil society. So just to be very quick, the board at the moment 21:57.400 --> 22:05.320 will be constituted by the one representative of each member state, the commission, the committee 22:05.320 --> 22:12.200 of the regions and the European Economic and Social Committee. So not really social civil society here 22:12.200 --> 22:16.680 and more specifically, the free software community is not in both at all here. 22:17.720 --> 22:23.880 Yeah, we know that they will be also an interoperable Europe community. But we believe these 22:24.680 --> 22:32.920 boards that will actually make the decisions needs to be more inclusive and has a more participation 22:32.920 --> 22:39.480 of different stakeholders. Especially if this is the one that holds all power to decide. 22:40.120 --> 22:47.560 Exactly, exactly. And that's exactly what we are trying to do here. And it is super interesting 22:47.560 --> 22:52.760 because even as I mentioned, the European Parliament is not even there. So at the moment, this is 22:53.640 --> 22:58.120 been discussed in the European Parliament and we have already seen some amendments coming from 22:58.120 --> 23:04.920 them saying that they also want to be part of this board. So I think in this case, the European 23:04.920 --> 23:10.520 Parliament has also noticed that more actors should be involved in this board and that's why we are 23:11.240 --> 23:16.040 really trying to push for the free software community to have a seat on this board. 23:16.280 --> 23:24.040 Yeah, and then yeah, so this will be the structure. And then basically what they want to do is to make 23:25.320 --> 23:31.880 mandatory for public administrations to chair these solutions. But the way it is written at the 23:31.880 --> 23:38.600 moment, it's like when requested. So I mean, if you're going to have interoperable solutions 23:39.560 --> 23:44.120 and they are free software, then this doesn't have to be requested. Then you can just avoid this part 23:44.120 --> 23:51.800 of request and be requested and just chair and reuse solutions that are there, which I mean 23:51.800 --> 23:57.800 come again with this whole thing of why do you need to develop something from scratch if you can 23:57.800 --> 24:03.720 reuse something that it's already out there. And yeah, they also want to introduce a portal where 24:03.720 --> 24:08.680 the public administrations will chair these solutions and there will be some assessments to see 24:08.760 --> 24:14.520 how interoperable the solutions are. And yeah, this is kind of like a very quick overview of 24:15.160 --> 24:19.880 what the interoperable Europe Act wants to implement. 24:21.560 --> 24:28.120 Yeah, so part of the loophole that we saw is already mentioned that it's on the board, but then 24:28.120 --> 24:38.280 there is also some lack of indicators and ways to measure and monitor progress, which this has 24:38.280 --> 24:46.440 already been kind of heard from the parliament. So we have seen that they already noticed that 24:46.440 --> 24:52.600 these indicators are also lacking because this is something that unfortunately happens quite often 24:52.600 --> 24:57.560 that they want to implement something, but there is no way to monitor how this implementation 24:57.560 --> 25:04.280 is going and then there is no way to see how effective these legislations are if there is no way 25:05.080 --> 25:13.000 to measure such progress. There is also not budget, so they want to basically put even more burden 25:13.000 --> 25:22.280 on public administrations without any budget, so we was trying to make them aware of the need of 25:22.280 --> 25:29.880 this. All right, so they expect like public administrations across Europe, across the EU 25:30.840 --> 25:39.640 to participate and to work on interoperability, which is quite good. So interoperability is a good 25:39.640 --> 25:47.160 thing, I would say, at least if it's free software or based on free software. But they have no 25:47.160 --> 25:56.120 budget allocated for this and they are also like they're expecting quite a lot and it does not 25:56.120 --> 26:03.160 look like they are thinking this through or at least trying to measure how effective it is and 26:03.160 --> 26:10.600 how good it is working. Is that what I got right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I mean we know 26:10.600 --> 26:15.560 also that this is not a document, like a budget document, so it shouldn't be specified how much 26:15.560 --> 26:23.000 and so on, but it should be at least defined or a name where the money or the budget will come 26:23.000 --> 26:32.200 for such tasks or for such implementation as well. Yeah, and in general, like we feel that auto 26:32.200 --> 26:40.520 free software is it's already included somehow as a key to enhance and so on. I feel like this is 26:40.520 --> 26:46.120 exactly the place where free software, like the definition of free software should brought up 26:46.120 --> 26:52.280 as well, so we already skipped the part of defining what free software is because there is already 26:52.280 --> 27:01.240 a definition and they can easily just include it here in this document and yeah, and that what 27:01.240 --> 27:06.440 comes with it so that if it's free software and then they go in the direction of free software 27:06.440 --> 27:14.600 first, then public administrations must share their software in a co-chair platform, you know, 27:14.600 --> 27:20.200 like the European Commission already has a public repository, so let's make use of such repository 27:20.280 --> 27:27.720 for for this goal, you know, for making easier chairing and reuse of digital solutions from 27:27.720 --> 27:33.320 public administrations. It's quite connected to public money, public code as well, isn't it? Yes, 27:33.320 --> 27:38.920 exactly, that's that's what I meant in the beginning, like it's it's always brings us to 27:40.040 --> 27:45.560 the core arguments, which is I mean if it's public, if it's public money, if you're going to 27:45.560 --> 27:50.680 develop something as software that it's using public money, then let's make it also available 27:50.680 --> 27:57.240 to the public with free software, so I mean in the specific file, we're really bringing up 27:57.240 --> 28:08.200 the arguments of public money, public code quite a lot, yeah, I see. Okay, and so SDF is you already 28:08.200 --> 28:15.480 mentioned that you do a lot of work for this and all around the interuropa, the Europe Act. 28:17.240 --> 28:22.920 SDF is of e taking a stand in the debate and can you define this a bit more for me? Like 28:22.920 --> 28:27.800 your demanding free software should be included, but is there like a specific 28:30.280 --> 28:36.760 part that you would now like to highlight a bit? Yeah, if I could wrap up everything in one 28:36.760 --> 28:43.160 demand is that we want a seat in the board, we want the free software community to be represented 28:43.160 --> 28:49.160 in the board because we believe that the community has the knowledge and the expertise to actually 28:49.160 --> 28:57.240 contribute a lot, not only within the community, but also by being able to make decisions. 28:57.480 --> 29:07.080 And yeah, so I mean for this, so the way we're being active is we're engaging, actually engaging 29:07.080 --> 29:13.560 with different stakeholders, with decision makers, so we actually meet them, we propose 29:13.560 --> 29:22.280 wardings or we try to prepare some texts of how this could look like, but then we, what we're 29:22.280 --> 29:29.880 also trying to do is to raise awareness of this by giving talks and by actually sharing with 29:29.880 --> 29:36.120 the community the importance of this act and why we're trying to achieve with it. 29:38.040 --> 29:42.680 Yeah, that weird comes about the seat, but then yeah, as I already briefly mentioned, 29:42.680 --> 29:49.240 then we're also trying to push for more indicators for ways to monitor the progress of such 29:50.200 --> 29:58.360 regulation. We are trying to push a little bit more for support for the free software community 29:58.360 --> 30:04.680 within this this file as well. And in general, that this whole idea of the whole interoperable 30:04.680 --> 30:11.080 Europe Act goes on the direction of free software. So I think it would save a lot of time, 30:11.080 --> 30:17.320 a lot of money, and it would actually help a lot public administrations if we make it, 30:17.320 --> 30:21.880 you know, like you, you should actually explain why you're not using free software. 30:21.880 --> 30:27.080 If you want to have interoperable systems, then and you're not using free software, then just 30:27.080 --> 30:33.320 maybe explain us a little bit why you're not using free software. So this is a, I guess, 30:33.320 --> 30:42.440 in a very broad way, what we're trying to achieve here. Yeah, how can other support you in this, 30:43.080 --> 30:50.040 like how can other support software freedom in the interoperable Europe Act? 30:51.400 --> 30:58.360 Yeah, I mean, at the moment, then what we are doing is, I mean, at the FSE, so we're trying to 30:59.000 --> 31:06.440 advocate how the regulation would look like. But after that, then there will come the implementation 31:06.440 --> 31:13.640 for member states, which means that every EU country will have to implement this and take measures 31:13.640 --> 31:21.640 to make this happen. And then here, I always like to say that I mean, one can always reach out to 31:21.640 --> 31:27.320 public to the public administration. This is also something that comes with the public money 31:27.320 --> 31:34.040 public code initiative, which is you know, you know, like public administrations are not necessarily 31:34.120 --> 31:40.200 or not only the parliament and the president and the mayor, but it's also your university, your 31:40.200 --> 31:47.320 school, the hospitals, your library, and you can always reach out to them. You can always bring up 31:47.320 --> 31:55.400 the benefits and the arguments for free software in public administrations. And this could sound 31:55.400 --> 32:02.760 like, I mean, it is, it is in a way, at the mountain task, because engaging with public administrations 32:02.840 --> 32:10.120 can take some time. But it's really a small thing that can help us a lot. I mean, the more administrations 32:10.120 --> 32:17.160 know about the benefits of free software and how can actually help their workflows and their 32:17.160 --> 32:26.280 infrastructure. The easier is also for us in a kind of bigger scale to pass our message, 32:26.280 --> 32:31.880 because it's, you know, the more people understand what we're talking about the easier, you know, 32:31.880 --> 32:38.040 they will hear us and they will get what, yeah, that we want to say. What would you say to somebody 32:38.040 --> 32:44.440 who is now thinking, yeah, but there needs to be a law and let's have a top down and not 32:45.480 --> 32:52.040 who does not want to engage with the public administration or who like even if someone from 32:52.040 --> 32:59.560 the public administration things are, you know, I don't see how I can change something. It's just me, 32:59.560 --> 33:03.720 I'm on my own. I don't know. What would you say to those people? 33:06.120 --> 33:13.640 Yeah, I mean, first of all, I completely understand that the thought, I think this is something that 33:13.640 --> 33:19.000 a lot of people get like, I'm not going to be able to change the world. Why do I even care to change 33:19.000 --> 33:26.600 something? But I mean, if we all keep thinking that, then probably we won't achieve anything. But 33:26.600 --> 33:34.280 if we like to believe that one person in every small town or over the world is doing something and 33:34.280 --> 33:40.840 then that to someone else is joining this person and oh, yet another person, this is how a whole 33:40.840 --> 33:47.400 movement and a whole change starts. So I would say that I think it's important to think that 33:47.400 --> 33:54.200 even small things, small steps that you do, if you believe that it's good for society and good 33:54.840 --> 34:02.600 for like a general for the general society, I would say it is worth it and you will have an impact 34:02.600 --> 34:07.720 even if you don't see it, it will change quite a lot. So I really like to encourage people to 34:08.360 --> 34:16.120 believe that they can help a lot by doing small things such as talking with the public servant or 34:16.120 --> 34:20.680 with somebody in a public administration about this, having the discussion, you don't need to 34:20.680 --> 34:26.920 convince them to migrate their whole infrastructure to change completely everything for free software. 34:26.920 --> 34:32.840 But if you kind of plan the seat or they understand what you mean and the importance, probably 34:32.840 --> 34:39.640 that person will go home and think about it and probably that person will even spread the message 34:39.640 --> 34:47.400 even farther and so on. So I think people we all have the agency to make a lot of change and we 34:47.400 --> 34:54.360 have to believe in that. I like that. I like this how do you phrase it quite a lot. I would 34:55.000 --> 35:00.360 agree with this 100%. That's how a movement starts and as you already mentioned at the beginning, 35:00.360 --> 35:07.000 this can also help you with the work on an European level. So like it makes people aware it pushes 35:07.000 --> 35:12.840 up. Yeah, absolutely. I mean sometimes when I meet the decision makers, I'm very happy if I 35:12.840 --> 35:19.720 leave their office, but they got the idea and the whole concept of what free software is and all 35:21.240 --> 35:29.880 benefits and all what implies to use and to promote free software. So if they understood that and 35:29.880 --> 35:37.080 my message got across that, I would leave the office quite happy. Like I spread the word, I 35:37.160 --> 35:45.400 make this person probably, he or she didn't have any idea about this and I'm happy to share this. 35:45.960 --> 35:53.880 I'm completely sure that person will in some point go back to what they got from me and 35:53.880 --> 36:05.160 so you plan to decide it. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, I mean that's why I really keep encouraging people 36:05.160 --> 36:13.320 to do this and yeah, I mean it's for sure like working on a higher level, you know, the U-level 36:13.320 --> 36:19.800 influence in the world in a new legislation will look like it's important and it's a big step, 36:19.800 --> 36:27.080 but talking to someone else in your library, it's also as important as this. So I think it's, 36:27.720 --> 36:34.280 it is yeah, it's a whole process and one thing complement each other. So it's very few time. 36:35.240 --> 36:43.480 Yeah, exactly. Okay. Last question, but not some one that I would like to miss. You know, 36:43.480 --> 36:50.360 we have that software day. And on this day, we celebrate all the people contributing to free 36:50.360 --> 36:57.000 software and we say thank you to them, we reach out to them and say it's so awesome that you're 36:57.000 --> 37:01.720 participating in the free software universe that you're doing something for software freedom, 37:02.600 --> 37:09.960 that you're designing, contributing in another way, writing code or yeah, advocating for software 37:09.960 --> 37:15.880 freedom. Is there someone or a project that you would like to say thank you to today because I 37:15.880 --> 37:21.560 also believe we should not only do this once a year, but every time we have the chance to do that. 37:21.560 --> 37:29.960 Yes, absolutely. Well, I really think I have to say thank you to a very lovely project that 37:29.960 --> 37:40.360 I started in Berlin and this called DRIP. And it's basically a menstrual cycle app. So you can 37:40.360 --> 37:50.440 check or you can monitor your cycle and so on. And also it has some fertility features as well. 37:51.640 --> 37:58.120 And I just have to say, I mean, this might be very personal, but over the last years, I was 37:58.120 --> 38:04.280 struggling a lot to find such app that could actually protect my data, right? Because I wanted to 38:05.080 --> 38:12.520 be aware of my body and follow it, but I didn't want to give away such data to who knows. 38:14.520 --> 38:20.920 So once I found this project and all the things, all like the lovely community behind it, 38:20.920 --> 38:25.880 and how amazing the app also is, I am just like completely fell in love with it. 38:26.840 --> 38:32.840 So yeah, I just want to thank this people behind DRIP because they can actually 38:33.800 --> 38:41.560 help me to control not only my body and my menstrual cycles and so on, but also my personal data, 38:41.560 --> 38:48.440 which is something that, yeah, sometimes we are not that aware of. So yeah, I want to thank them. 38:49.080 --> 38:54.920 Thank you. That's a nice thing to say. Like it's a very handy app. And it's nice to say thank you 38:54.920 --> 39:01.640 for something like that. Yeah. So if I would also promote it here, if you want to try it, 39:01.640 --> 39:04.920 I will include it in the show notes. Yes, you should. 39:07.080 --> 39:11.960 Hello about the European policy and DRIP, and DRIP. 39:14.440 --> 39:16.440 I like the very versatile. 39:16.600 --> 39:26.040 Okay. Oh my God. Thank you, Lina. Thank you so much for talking to me about European politics. 39:26.040 --> 39:32.760 And I know it's quite complicated, but you did just a well-top and narrowing it down. And also, 39:33.720 --> 39:38.680 yeah, I now feel very motivated. I do want to go to the library and talk to my library. 39:39.000 --> 39:45.240 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much for the invitation. And, yeah, I mean, I really hope this 39:46.280 --> 39:51.400 make the Interparable Europe Act a little bit more clear. And also, 39:52.200 --> 39:57.560 that people can know a little bit better where we're doing, where we aim in to do, and they can 39:57.560 --> 40:04.840 also support us. And I will be super happy if someone here listening to us have some ideas, 40:05.400 --> 40:12.920 they want to participate, they can always contact us at the office fee. We rely a lot on our community, 40:12.920 --> 40:18.200 and we will be more than happy to have our community getting active around this topic, 40:18.840 --> 40:25.320 that is as important as the others. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you very much. Those were very nice 40:25.320 --> 40:31.000 closing words. I believe it like that. Thank you, Man. Thank you very much, Bunny. Bye, bye, Lina. 40:31.480 --> 40:37.640 Bye, bye. This was the Software Freedom Podcast. 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