Transcript of SFP#24: The status of Free Software with Karen Sandler and Alexander Sander
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WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:19.000 Welcome to the software freedom podcast. 00:19.000 --> 00:21.800 This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe, 00:21.800 --> 00:25.440 we are a charity that empowers users to control technology. 00:25.440 --> 00:28.880 I'm Bonnie Merring and for this I love Free Software Day podcasts. 00:28.880 --> 00:30.400 I have two guests with me. 00:30.400 --> 00:34.960 I have Karen Sandlam from the Software Freedom Conservancy. 00:34.960 --> 00:37.840 And Karen brings an engineering and legal background, 00:37.840 --> 00:43.200 has been around for the software for ages, and also a personal interest. 00:43.200 --> 00:45.720 Bonnie just called me old, is it okay to interrupt her? 00:45.720 --> 00:50.640 Yeah, it's okay, I'm sorry. 00:50.640 --> 00:53.480 It's quite alright, that's what Free Software is about. 00:53.480 --> 00:55.560 It's about people who have been here for a long time 00:55.560 --> 00:57.320 and people who are newcomers. 00:57.320 --> 01:05.640 Karen brings an engineering and legal background, as well as a personal interest. 01:05.640 --> 01:16.440 Someone with an implemented pacemaker, she also has a real personal interest in it. 01:16.440 --> 01:22.040 And our second guest for this podcast for the I Love Free Software Day is Alexander Sander. 01:22.120 --> 01:27.160 Alex is also around for ages with the Free Software movement. 01:27.160 --> 01:29.320 You're old too. 01:29.320 --> 01:34.120 No, I just wanted to say it because I felt like this is a good equal level. 01:34.120 --> 01:37.600 Alex is way older than me. 01:37.600 --> 01:42.280 Our second guest for this I Love Free Software Day podcast is Alexander Sander. 01:42.280 --> 01:45.360 He's the FSEP Senior Policy Consultant. 01:45.360 --> 01:49.280 And Alex has been around with Free Software for a very long time. 01:49.280 --> 01:52.880 He's also since ever. 01:52.880 --> 02:01.040 Like when Free Software started in 1837, Alex Sander was here. 02:01.040 --> 02:02.760 Oh gosh. 02:05.160 --> 02:07.200 Okay, I think we have to start again. 02:07.200 --> 02:09.520 No, that's not right. 02:09.520 --> 02:10.680 Sitting next to me. 02:10.680 --> 02:12.760 Okay, I won't say anything about it. 02:12.760 --> 02:14.280 Long time on. 02:14.280 --> 02:25.600 All right, thank you, too, for joining me here for the Software Freedom podcast. 02:25.600 --> 02:29.040 And yeah, thank you so much for making the time at FOSSTEM. 02:29.040 --> 02:30.840 We're currently at FOSSTEM, actually. 02:30.840 --> 02:32.560 I found a really quiet room here. 02:32.560 --> 02:34.000 I can't believe that I managed. 02:34.000 --> 02:35.000 That's true. 02:35.000 --> 02:36.000 It's a very cool room. 02:36.000 --> 02:37.280 I can't believe you did this, either. 02:37.280 --> 02:43.760 I apologize to everybody that I have a little bit of a cold, so you heard that in my voice. 02:44.480 --> 02:47.360 You're also organizing a death room here, right? 02:47.360 --> 02:48.360 That's true. 02:48.360 --> 02:52.520 It will happen basically after the podcast, so we can't tell you how it was. 02:52.520 --> 02:55.160 No, we're going to run straight there from here. 02:55.160 --> 03:00.240 But you can definitely read on our websites afterwards how it was and can see the recordings 03:00.240 --> 03:04.560 because we will have also awesome recordings, and by that we can also follow in the death 03:04.560 --> 03:07.200 room, even if you're not around. 03:07.200 --> 03:11.640 And unfortunately, we just got a half day for this year's FOSSTEM, but still I think 03:11.640 --> 03:13.840 we got a very interesting program. 03:13.840 --> 03:17.000 Freddie, I was thinking, fortunately, we have only a half day. 03:17.000 --> 03:23.000 I mean, it's a very interesting program, but we've basically, it's a very busy FOSSTEM. 03:23.000 --> 03:26.480 I did a keynote this morning about outreach. 03:26.480 --> 03:32.400 Bradley has a keynote, a main track talk this afternoon, and then we have the legal death 03:32.400 --> 03:33.960 room, and there's just tons going on. 03:33.960 --> 03:39.680 And I know you're super, we had a hard time finding the schedule for this because of how 03:39.680 --> 03:40.680 busy everybody was. 03:40.720 --> 03:41.720 Yeah. 03:41.720 --> 03:42.720 Oh, no. 03:42.720 --> 03:46.720 I mean, it's always this like between the years coming up with the agenda, but I mean, 03:46.720 --> 03:52.240 we are now kind of used to it as we, it's not the first time, but still it's, yeah, 03:52.240 --> 03:53.240 it's always challenging. 03:53.240 --> 03:58.840 And I think we have like small changes until the last minute, but still. 03:58.840 --> 04:01.280 I think it's been very like, I think the program's really strong. 04:01.280 --> 04:07.200 We got more strong applications than we have in a lot of years, so it's a shame we can't 04:07.240 --> 04:12.200 have all of them, but I think in future years, we'll have, we'll be able to have some of 04:12.200 --> 04:13.200 that programming. 04:13.200 --> 04:14.200 So it's all good. 04:14.200 --> 04:19.040 Is there a talk you really would recommend to go there or? 04:19.040 --> 04:24.800 I mean, for me, it's important to like follow the debates around the whole liability and 04:24.800 --> 04:33.200 AI act debates we had, but also on interoperability that kept me and Lina busy for a very long 04:33.200 --> 04:34.200 time. 04:34.200 --> 04:35.200 So I think we'll. 04:35.200 --> 04:36.200 That's why I'm so old. 04:36.200 --> 04:39.080 I think we'll be covering it in the hot topics in the dev room. 04:39.080 --> 04:43.400 I think that's probably the, like if you were to pick one thing, it will probably cover 04:43.400 --> 04:48.840 like an overview of all of the talks that, like all of the topics that are really like 04:48.840 --> 04:49.840 current. 04:49.840 --> 04:50.840 Yeah. 04:50.840 --> 04:51.840 All right. 04:51.840 --> 04:53.640 This brings me basically to our topic. 04:53.640 --> 04:58.600 As you mentioned, liability, AI act, it's a very broad topic, so it's about the status 04:58.600 --> 05:02.000 of what a current situation of free software in the Western world. 05:02.000 --> 05:08.960 I know it has a Western world point of view with you from the USA and Alex basically from 05:08.960 --> 05:10.460 Europe. 05:10.460 --> 05:18.320 So last year, this is how I came up with the idea actually last year, you mentioned to me, 05:18.320 --> 05:23.640 you had the feeling that something was happening that free software is getting stronger and 05:23.640 --> 05:25.800 that it's more widely accepted. 05:25.800 --> 05:31.880 And this was shortly after Elon Musk took over ex formerly known as Twitter. 05:32.760 --> 05:33.760 That's how they presented now. 05:33.760 --> 05:34.760 Is there a connection? 05:34.760 --> 05:35.760 No. 05:35.760 --> 05:40.960 And a lot of people moved to Amsterdam and you really had the feeling that something 05:40.960 --> 05:43.040 was happening, right? 05:43.040 --> 05:47.640 Is it still like that or how would you say the last year has gone from Europe? 05:47.640 --> 05:48.640 I mean, absolutely. 05:48.640 --> 05:55.800 I mean, like free software is, it's a long-term issue and so our movement is constantly in 05:55.800 --> 06:00.200 a state of like highs and lows and it's like that forever and we just have to like stay 06:00.200 --> 06:05.280 focused and really think long-term because software freedom is something that is like, 06:05.280 --> 06:10.880 you know, not just this year, not just next year, but we have to think in terms of decades 06:10.880 --> 06:16.120 and even a century, like we have to be laying the groundwork and I do find that I'm still 06:16.120 --> 06:21.600 in a place of optimism when it comes to like the feeling like things are changing. 06:21.600 --> 06:27.840 I think seeing how that move to Amsterdam was not just an isolated blip, the people 06:27.840 --> 06:34.760 have continued to move and more than that, there's just this ever-growing belief that 06:34.760 --> 06:39.880 there's a problem with relying on big tech solutions and ordinary people are willing 06:39.880 --> 06:45.160 to suddenly say, oh, you know, I guess that Facebook thing isn't so good. 06:45.160 --> 06:49.200 Oh, yeah, I know that Apple has a lot of control over my computing. 06:49.200 --> 06:51.240 I don't know if I feel like comfortable about it. 06:51.240 --> 06:54.560 You know, I remember when you were talking about this weird thing about controlling my 06:54.560 --> 06:59.320 software years ago, Karen, like, I really see that there's a point to that. 06:59.320 --> 07:02.280 I don't know if you've been seeing the same thing. 07:02.280 --> 07:10.400 I mean, I'm also seeing it on a wider level when it comes to government implementing open 07:10.400 --> 07:14.520 source of free software solutions and it's interesting to see that they connected to 07:14.520 --> 07:20.320 serenity and we have a very huge debate about digital serenity and part of this is like 07:20.320 --> 07:24.960 hosting the data under your control, but also we talk about free software. 07:24.960 --> 07:28.440 And that's super interesting to see that governments like connect this debate and also 07:28.440 --> 07:34.240 won't like what we as an individual won't have like control access, transparency. 07:34.240 --> 07:38.640 That's obviously also something that governments are looking for these days and that's also 07:38.640 --> 07:42.840 something I just mentioned in the beginning with the Interoperability Europe Act or the 07:42.840 --> 07:46.880 discussion about interoperability in general and that's also something we have on our legal 07:46.920 --> 07:49.640 death room with Matthias Stömer from Switzerland. 07:49.640 --> 07:54.680 So it's the procurement of free software done by governments and they also see that 07:54.680 --> 07:58.400 interoperability is very important for them and that they can only achieve it if they 07:58.400 --> 08:02.200 have access to the source code and if they can change it. 08:02.200 --> 08:06.120 If they have access to free software, like if they use free software. 08:06.120 --> 08:10.400 I think what's upon a time in the free software world, we used to talk about like really talk 08:10.400 --> 08:14.080 about the issue from a real developer perspective that developers should have the right and 08:14.120 --> 08:20.080 I think that's still the case, you know, and that's the like the kernel for which this 08:20.080 --> 08:21.640 movement started. 08:21.640 --> 08:25.720 But what we're now starting to talk about is more like collective action and whether 08:25.720 --> 08:30.360 that's through governments, through nonprofits or through other kinds of mechanisms, having 08:30.360 --> 08:34.600 that ability so that technical and non-technical people can act at concert to have appreciable 08:34.600 --> 08:36.400 control over their technology. 08:36.400 --> 08:40.960 Like we're seeing that conversation for the first time and for the first time, I feel 08:40.960 --> 08:47.800 like we're able to start proposing really big solutions instead of small, you know, 08:47.800 --> 08:49.520 tiny move-the-needle solutions. 08:49.520 --> 08:50.640 So I don't know. 08:50.640 --> 08:52.120 Do you have an example? 08:52.120 --> 08:54.320 Um, no. 08:54.320 --> 08:56.000 Why would I have an example? 08:56.000 --> 08:57.960 No, I would say from the US perspective. 08:57.960 --> 09:01.720 Well, just to meet the counter to what Alex was saying, the US, it's more about seeing 09:01.720 --> 09:06.760 right to repair legislation popping up everywhere across the United States, not everywhere. 09:06.760 --> 09:09.720 But in quite a few prominent jurisdictions. 09:09.760 --> 09:15.200 And so people are sort of saying, you know, it's a part of our culture that we should 09:15.200 --> 09:17.400 be able to repair the technology we rely on. 09:17.400 --> 09:23.560 I mean, you know, you both are a European base, but as you may know from the like the 09:23.560 --> 09:26.920 reputation of Americans, what's more American than repairing your car? 09:26.920 --> 09:31.240 And when your car is all software, how are you going to repair your car? 09:31.240 --> 09:36.160 And so Americans are sort of starting to wake up to that and like, you know, the I fix it 09:36.160 --> 09:40.200 folks and the right to repair folks, they're done a really good job of starting to propose 09:40.200 --> 09:41.360 all this legislation. 09:41.360 --> 09:45.040 And we've been excited to be a part of the like software right to repair and helping 09:45.040 --> 09:50.640 them to understand how, you know, well, John Deere, like John Deere tractors, they, you 09:50.640 --> 09:53.000 know, they have copy-lefted software in them. 09:53.000 --> 09:54.840 And that means that there are software rights. 09:54.840 --> 10:00.640 And so the linking that software right to the hardware right to repair, I think is starting 10:00.640 --> 10:04.160 to happen in a lot of places and I'm really gratified to see it. 10:04.160 --> 10:08.120 This was also a focus of your work last year, right? 10:08.120 --> 10:09.120 The right to repair. 10:09.120 --> 10:15.160 It was like a, you were very focused on this as well with the DMCA, I think it's called. 10:15.160 --> 10:16.160 Yeah. 10:16.160 --> 10:17.160 Yeah. 10:17.160 --> 10:18.160 Yeah. 10:18.160 --> 10:20.520 But it has been around for ages now. 10:20.520 --> 10:22.160 It's the worst. 10:22.160 --> 10:23.160 Did something happen there? 10:23.160 --> 10:28.000 Was it like in the last year, did you have the feeling that you actually with this broader 10:28.000 --> 10:30.640 alliance that you formed could move something? 10:30.640 --> 10:33.880 Well, I does feel that way because, you know, we're sort of fed up. 10:33.880 --> 10:38.280 So the way that it's worked in the United States is that the digital millennium, the 10:38.280 --> 10:44.280 DMCA, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, prevents folks from like circumventing technological 10:44.280 --> 10:46.640 protection measures, basically DRM. 10:46.640 --> 10:52.440 So it's a crime to try to circumvent those technological protection measures. 10:52.440 --> 10:54.000 And that's really awful. 10:54.000 --> 10:58.160 And so what the, what they copyrighted, what they did in the legislation is they established 10:58.160 --> 10:59.320 this every three years. 10:59.320 --> 11:03.840 There's this triennial exemption period where you can say, no, no, no, no, no. 11:03.840 --> 11:08.880 I need an exemption for being able to circumvent myself because I have these important causes. 11:08.880 --> 11:14.760 And so independently, a lot of groups over the years have been submitting for their exemptions. 11:14.760 --> 11:19.560 We at Software Freedom Conservancy applied for router, exemptions for routers, for smart 11:19.560 --> 11:26.000 TVs in order to be able to determine if somebody is violating your copyrights and violating 11:26.000 --> 11:27.000 the GPL. 11:27.000 --> 11:32.300 And, and I've been involved with the medical devices once so that you could circumvent technological 11:32.300 --> 11:33.300 protection measures. 11:33.300 --> 11:34.940 But, and that's been pretty successful. 11:34.940 --> 11:39.980 The Copyright Office has granted those permissions, but those only go so far as you be able to 11:39.980 --> 11:43.820 circumvent yourself, like do that work yourself. 11:43.820 --> 11:50.540 It is still absolutely illegal under any circumstances to talk about it and explain and teach to others, 11:50.540 --> 11:51.540 which is absurd. 11:51.540 --> 11:55.580 And so one of the things that happened this year is that our coalition of right to repair 11:55.580 --> 12:02.180 groups came together and we wrote an amicus brief, basically saying that it's unconstitutional 12:02.180 --> 12:03.060 in the United States. 12:03.060 --> 12:08.060 It violates free speech to not, you know, so we haven't seen any results on that yet. 12:08.060 --> 12:11.700 It's just, we just filed it in December, you're saying it was. 12:11.700 --> 12:12.860 I think so. 12:12.860 --> 12:16.940 But what was cool about that was that like it really was coming out of the people who 12:16.940 --> 12:18.940 are more focused on hardware. 12:18.940 --> 12:24.740 And yet they included my medical devices story in the, like, like prominently in the brief, 12:24.740 --> 12:29.420 just to explain as a, and used our examples for why this, why the software right to repair 12:29.420 --> 12:30.500 is so critical. 12:30.500 --> 12:34.820 So, you know, I don't know, have we seen any real result yet? 12:34.820 --> 12:36.300 It's hard to say. 12:36.300 --> 12:41.140 But like the fact that we're working more in concert and that the folks that we're advocating 12:41.140 --> 12:45.380 to a more receptive to it, means that we're really onto something good and I'm hoping 12:45.380 --> 12:47.100 that we're really see some results. 12:47.100 --> 12:51.820 I would say in the next year, but I think that's overly optimistic in the next few years. 12:51.820 --> 12:52.820 But how is this working out? 12:52.820 --> 12:58.900 It's like, it sounds like that you managed it to, to like connect different communities. 12:58.900 --> 13:02.460 So in Germany, for example, we have this movement called bits and boimers, which is 13:02.460 --> 13:07.220 basically bits and trees that we tried to bring in climate and digital right activists 13:07.220 --> 13:09.540 in one room and discuss basically these topics. 13:09.540 --> 13:10.940 Is it the same for you? 13:10.940 --> 13:11.940 That's really cool. 13:11.940 --> 13:12.940 Yeah. 13:12.940 --> 13:15.500 What kind of communities are discussing these topics in the US? 13:15.500 --> 13:16.500 Yeah. 13:16.500 --> 13:20.300 I mean, it's so I have to give my colleague Denver, a lot of Denver Gigerich, a lot of 13:20.300 --> 13:24.740 credit because he's basically been helping to bring these, these organizations together. 13:24.740 --> 13:30.620 And so he participates in monthly calls with, with mostly like hardware focused organizations, 13:30.620 --> 13:33.180 but there is a variety of organizations that participate. 13:33.180 --> 13:37.940 Some of them have a real environmental viewpoint because the right to repair really resonates 13:37.940 --> 13:41.420 with your desire to not put more equipment in landfills, right? 13:41.420 --> 13:45.100 If you could replace the software and if you could repair it, then there's a real environmental 13:45.100 --> 13:47.820 impact if you could scale that. 13:47.820 --> 13:51.340 So yeah, I mean, I think we're seeing something similar. 13:51.340 --> 13:58.300 I think we also discussed on the, during the SFS con in Bolzano, the blue angel, I think 13:58.300 --> 14:01.540 called a logo to put on the software. 14:01.540 --> 14:07.260 And that's, I think it's also interesting this discussion we also have in Europe to, 14:07.260 --> 14:12.420 to combine climate and, and software basically and to discuss basically if you can see the 14:12.420 --> 14:16.980 source code, you can make it more efficient and but that's can safeguard resources and 14:16.980 --> 14:20.500 also as you don't have to reinvent the wheel over and over again, right? 14:20.660 --> 14:22.620 So this is, I mean, we can also save energy with this. 14:22.620 --> 14:27.900 So I also think it's a debate which will keep us busy for the next decades as well. 14:27.900 --> 14:30.100 Well, so Bonnie asked me about my optimism, right? 14:30.100 --> 14:33.820 Like whether I'm still as optimistic as I was last year. 14:34.820 --> 14:38.700 No, but I was going to ask you like what your feeling is about all the legislation that's 14:38.700 --> 14:42.180 been coming down in Europe and, you know, like what's your perspective on it? 14:42.180 --> 14:46.260 How do you feel about it now that like every, everything is finalizing, right? 14:46.700 --> 14:50.900 Oh, before that, could you also mention all those legislation that are coming? 14:50.900 --> 14:53.700 Because I think otherwise we will get a bit lost. 14:53.700 --> 14:56.900 There are a lot of acts currently happening and files. 14:57.180 --> 14:58.300 Yeah, that's pretty true. 14:58.300 --> 15:03.500 So basically what we, what we are discussing or what we had discussed in Europe for the 15:03.500 --> 15:13.260 last basically years is how can we exempt free software from legislation when we want 15:13.260 --> 15:17.220 to like put the burden on those earning money with it. 15:17.220 --> 15:24.860 So and, but at the same time making sure we don't over-regulate and by thus we want to 15:24.860 --> 15:26.580 safeguard free software development. 15:26.580 --> 15:30.540 That's basically what we are trying to achieve in this legislation and what worked out quite 15:30.540 --> 15:31.220 well, I'd say. 15:31.700 --> 15:34.340 And the files have been called Cyber Resilience Act. 15:34.980 --> 15:41.540 Basically we discussed to put a CE label on software with this file and in this case for 15:41.580 --> 15:45.660 cybersecurity, then we are talking about the product liability directive. 15:45.660 --> 15:47.220 This is pretty much the same idea. 15:47.220 --> 15:53.260 So we want to put a CE label on software and the third file, which was discussed, which 15:53.260 --> 15:55.780 is going in this direction was the AI Act. 15:55.820 --> 16:02.900 We also want to have a CE label for AI, but ultimately the AI Act also talked about 16:02.900 --> 16:05.300 language models and high risk models and stuff like this. 16:05.300 --> 16:10.300 So there have been the Cyber Resilience Act and AI Act have been like topic wise a bit 16:10.300 --> 16:14.140 different, but in general we were talking about putting a CE label on software. 16:14.140 --> 16:15.740 So that's basically what we discussed. 16:15.740 --> 16:20.780 And I think I can understand the idea from a European perspective. 16:20.780 --> 16:25.300 So everything that comes to the European market needs to have this label and we had 16:25.300 --> 16:29.980 good experience, especially when we talked about toys, for example, that we can make 16:29.980 --> 16:37.940 sure that we save our children from products that might don't follow like the product 16:37.980 --> 16:38.940 rules we had in place. 16:39.260 --> 16:44.260 And that was the idea basically by lawmakers to have safe software. 16:44.260 --> 16:49.380 No, let's not discuss how useful. 16:49.740 --> 16:53.660 Yeah, no, it's a totally different topic, but that's the general take on this. 16:53.660 --> 16:53.980 Exactly. 16:53.980 --> 16:57.180 That was the general aim with this legislation. 16:57.180 --> 17:05.020 And what we tried to do is that the legislator came up with a wording set like we want to 17:05.020 --> 17:07.940 put things into service or put on to market. 17:07.940 --> 17:12.620 That was like from the one wording and the other one was talking about commercial activity. 17:13.340 --> 17:18.420 And it's super difficult to like go with these terms when we talk about free software. 17:18.420 --> 17:20.580 So just think about foundations, for example. 17:20.580 --> 17:26.220 So they definitely have like a revenue, but is this then a commercial activity in terms 17:26.220 --> 17:31.780 of like do you contribute to like the social good and then you are liable for this because 17:31.780 --> 17:37.660 you are just like, yeah, I'm giving people a difficult situation also. 17:38.140 --> 17:39.580 Definitely, definitely it was. 17:39.580 --> 17:46.060 And but I do believe like with the discussion we had, we also managed it to explain free 17:46.060 --> 17:48.180 software and not to decision makers in the last year. 17:48.180 --> 17:53.300 And it also helped a lot to make them understand how the whole ecosystem looks like and how 17:53.300 --> 17:54.060 it's working. 17:54.060 --> 17:58.860 And they are also now coming to foster them, for example, and want to run into people and 17:58.860 --> 17:59.700 learn more about it. 17:59.700 --> 18:03.460 So and that's also a good result of people from the European Commission, from the European 18:03.460 --> 18:07.740 Parliament and the council are going to a conference like the foster to learn more about 18:07.740 --> 18:08.740 what they are regulating. 18:09.060 --> 18:15.100 And I think that's something we should also encourage and like look that we not only talk 18:15.100 --> 18:21.140 to us, but that we also like do outreach activities and try to explain free software 18:21.140 --> 18:24.380 to people that are not so much aware about these topics. 18:24.380 --> 18:28.260 And I do believe that this worked out very, very well with this discussion we had in the 18:28.260 --> 18:28.740 last year. 18:28.940 --> 18:29.820 So you're optimistic. 18:30.300 --> 18:31.980 Yeah, that was now my question as well. 18:31.980 --> 18:34.100 So how is your optimism feel now? 18:37.020 --> 18:43.100 I mean, I was quite optimistic already, I think last year that so because the thing is we had 18:43.100 --> 18:47.220 it already in the Commission already proposed the exemption, which is good. 18:47.220 --> 18:52.460 So the exemption itself was not good, but they already had in mind that they have to 18:52.460 --> 18:54.260 regulate it somehow differently. 18:54.260 --> 18:55.980 And that that was a good starting point. 18:56.980 --> 19:00.500 And not everything was super nice and shiny. 19:00.500 --> 19:03.500 And I do believe we also have to clean up the mess a bit. 19:04.100 --> 19:09.860 So to say in the next month, I think it's also good that we are going for a next term so 19:09.860 --> 19:14.580 that everything renews a bit, also in the institutions, but also maybe we have the time 19:14.580 --> 19:23.940 to reflect a bit in our movement, how we should like jump into future debates and how 19:23.940 --> 19:27.580 we maybe could better collaborate also as community. 19:28.580 --> 19:33.860 This is definitely something where we need to invest some time to discuss all of this. 19:33.860 --> 19:40.580 But in general, I'd say we can all be quite happy what we achieved in total. 19:40.580 --> 19:41.340 It's not perfect. 19:41.340 --> 19:42.260 It's far from perfect. 19:42.780 --> 19:47.420 Also, it's absolutely not fully clear how it will look like in reality. 19:47.420 --> 19:52.540 I mean, it's always the case with legislation that you will not fully know how it will like 19:52.540 --> 19:54.020 then look in five years. 19:54.020 --> 19:55.860 And maybe we need to adapt the rules then. 19:56.580 --> 20:03.060 So we definitely need to monitor a lot of guidelines or delegated acts. 20:03.380 --> 20:09.260 So basically to say decisions that have to be taken in the future by the European Commission, 20:09.260 --> 20:11.780 for example, and this is definitely something we need to monitor. 20:12.420 --> 20:18.180 But in general, what we have now and also what we discussed is something we can reuse 20:18.180 --> 20:21.500 for future debates and we can build on the wording we have. 20:21.540 --> 20:22.540 And that's something good. 20:23.300 --> 20:29.340 So you would say there in the last year, Christopher made a step forward because now 20:29.340 --> 20:37.980 it's more widely known and there is some groundwork done again and we can continue from here. 20:37.980 --> 20:47.420 I do believe when you look on this governmental level, then I'd say it pretty much started 20:47.460 --> 20:54.300 with these corona tracing apps when governments understood in practice how cross-border collaboration 20:54.300 --> 21:00.860 looks like and how you can do this procurement of basically free software, which is super easy 21:00.860 --> 21:08.140 because you just take it from, in this case, Germany and do a translation and then you 21:08.140 --> 21:10.500 can have a cross-border app and use it everywhere. 21:10.500 --> 21:14.500 And this is a moment where governments understood, oh, this is really cool and we want to have 21:14.500 --> 21:15.500 this as well. 21:15.500 --> 21:19.620 Then the debate about digital sovereignty that also contributes to this. 21:19.620 --> 21:24.380 We have governments procuring more and more free software, thus we have also more and 21:24.380 --> 21:26.260 more best practice examples. 21:26.260 --> 21:31.540 And we had this debate around liability and the AI Act and also with the large language 21:31.540 --> 21:37.460 models we talked a lot about free software and that helped that people better understand 21:37.460 --> 21:38.460 free software. 21:38.460 --> 21:41.140 And this, I think, also leads to better regulation. 21:41.300 --> 21:47.380 It's way better if you know what you are regulating than if you are doing it by, I'm not fully 21:47.380 --> 21:48.780 sure, but I'm going to regulate. 21:48.780 --> 21:49.780 Yeah. 21:49.780 --> 21:55.500 I mean, lest everything sound like sunshine and roses, I would say that in the pandemic, 21:55.500 --> 22:02.420 it was really disappointing how many proprietary solutions were settled on widely by big sections 22:02.420 --> 22:03.420 of society. 22:04.180 --> 22:13.660 In the United States, the software used for COVID tracking and other things was proprietary. 22:13.660 --> 22:19.340 There were a lot of disappointing developments, but nonetheless, I still, I agree with you 22:19.340 --> 22:20.340 otherwise. 22:20.340 --> 22:24.420 I mean, I think we continue to push things forward and we're always working for that 22:24.420 --> 22:25.420 next opportunity. 22:25.420 --> 22:30.820 Bradley, who I work with, Bradley Kuhn who works with me at Software Freedom Conservancy 22:30.860 --> 22:35.100 says, we're working for Software Freedom in 300 years. 22:35.100 --> 22:40.980 We're laying the groundwork now so that later people could come back and they have the ideological 22:40.980 --> 22:45.060 underpinnings and they have a map and they can look at the failures and they can look 22:45.060 --> 22:47.900 at how things unraveled and they could rebuild in a sensible way. 22:47.900 --> 22:53.100 I don't know that I'm willing to give up on Software Freedom in my lifetime, but it's 22:53.100 --> 22:55.420 very difficult to live only in Software Freedom now. 22:55.420 --> 23:01.700 It's impossible if you have to do things for yourself like book of flight. 23:01.700 --> 23:03.100 It's very difficult to do. 23:03.100 --> 23:08.580 I think we have to be sanguine about the challenges that we are facing, which are considerable, 23:08.580 --> 23:14.140 but the opportunities to present these issues as ones that are societal issues and to get 23:14.140 --> 23:18.980 legislators and other public-facing people to care about it is so much greater than it 23:18.980 --> 23:19.980 was before. 23:20.340 --> 23:26.940 And also, there is a good best practice example now in the USA with, or let me check the name, 23:26.940 --> 23:35.860 I noted it down, the National, the Center for Medical, Medicaid and Medicare Services 23:35.860 --> 23:39.780 has been launching the first open source program office. 23:39.780 --> 23:40.780 Yeah. 23:40.780 --> 23:44.620 I was pretty amazed by reading this, I was like, oh my God, I never thought this would 23:44.620 --> 23:45.620 be happening. 23:46.260 --> 23:49.100 I was like, aren't they? 23:49.100 --> 23:50.100 I'm sure. 23:50.100 --> 23:57.060 So I had to double check, I was reading two or three different newspapers about it. 23:57.060 --> 24:01.900 I think the person who is involved with that has been long involved in the free software 24:01.900 --> 24:02.900 world. 24:02.900 --> 24:03.900 Yeah, that's what she said. 24:03.900 --> 24:04.900 Yeah, yeah. 24:04.900 --> 24:05.900 So that's really cool. 24:05.900 --> 24:10.700 I mean, it just shows that when we bring people in and get them up to speed, they go 24:10.700 --> 24:13.220 elsewhere and do really cool stuff. 24:13.220 --> 24:20.380 I mean, I want to be optimistic, but this desire to create OSPOs everywhere is very 24:20.380 --> 24:24.780 well-intentioned, but I have to say that a lot of times it doesn't actually result in 24:24.780 --> 24:25.780 more free software. 24:25.780 --> 24:33.060 It results in offices and conversations about that basically wind up having institutions 24:33.060 --> 24:36.100 use the stuff they were going to use anyway. 24:36.100 --> 24:39.700 But I'd like to see that, I mean, they're baby steps, right? 24:39.700 --> 24:44.300 There have been good collaboration that have come from some OSPOs and I don't know if every 24:44.300 --> 24:50.100 single thing needs to have an OSPO, but everything could because there's free software in everything 24:50.100 --> 24:55.740 somehow, somewhere, even if it's not copy left, so it doesn't really give you rights, 24:55.740 --> 25:01.380 even if it's fragmented and proprietorized, even if it's exploitative. 25:01.380 --> 25:02.380 Yeah. 25:02.380 --> 25:08.980 But we also have this movement in Europe that we see more OSPOs everywhere and also do have 25:08.980 --> 25:14.020 the feeling that it's not really contributing to more free software, but more chats about. 25:14.020 --> 25:20.740 No, but I also do believe in particular when we talk about administrations, for example, 25:20.740 --> 25:25.140 I'm not sure if this is the best approach to first set up an OSPO. 25:25.140 --> 25:30.460 I think it's more important to work on the mindset and if you have a proper mindset, 25:30.460 --> 25:33.660 you don't need the OSPO and the other way around. 25:33.660 --> 25:35.540 Completely agree. 25:35.620 --> 25:40.700 I sometimes, it's not often, but I sometimes have the feeling it also goes in the direction 25:40.700 --> 25:45.580 of having a thick leaf, basically, and you can then just say, look, I have OSPO, talk 25:45.580 --> 25:48.260 to these people and I don't have to care anymore. 25:48.260 --> 25:56.220 And so we also need to see where this development goes, but I'm also not the biggest fan of 25:56.220 --> 26:02.220 these OSPOs and I really don't see the actual need in every case where they set up an OSPO, 26:02.220 --> 26:03.220 to be honest. 26:03.220 --> 26:04.220 Yeah. 26:04.540 --> 26:05.540 All right. 26:05.540 --> 26:11.580 So you're quite looking forward into the future and how can people actually participate 26:11.580 --> 26:18.420 in this and how can people help bring this, help with the movement and help to make this. 26:18.420 --> 26:21.940 On the one hand, we have to safeguard what we have. 26:21.940 --> 26:22.940 That's for sure. 26:22.940 --> 26:31.300 But also, I mean, as Kevin also said, maybe it sounded a bit too nice, but what I just 26:31.380 --> 26:37.420 said, it's not everything is just super mind-blowing or something good in Europe when you talk 26:37.420 --> 26:38.420 about free software. 26:38.420 --> 26:42.980 So, I mean, we also, for example, still run our campaign, public money, public code, 26:42.980 --> 26:44.740 and this is still needed. 26:44.740 --> 26:50.340 So we are very far away from the point where every administration is using free software 26:50.340 --> 26:53.980 or that they are even only procuring for software. 26:53.980 --> 26:59.540 So just recently in Germany, the budget have been cut for free software and billions of 26:59.580 --> 27:02.340 euro have been spent to procure oracle, for example. 27:02.340 --> 27:04.980 So there's still a lot to do. 27:04.980 --> 27:09.500 And in this regard, for example, you can help us by signing this campaign. 27:09.500 --> 27:16.300 I think it's very important that we show that a lot of people like demand with us that 27:16.300 --> 27:19.860 every administration should procure free software. 27:19.860 --> 27:24.900 And all what you can also do is, and this works out quite well, is to go to your local 27:24.940 --> 27:27.100 administration and talk to them and convince them. 27:27.100 --> 27:30.260 And we have dedicated materials for this. 27:30.260 --> 27:34.780 We have a brochure made for decision makers for local administrations, which you can download 27:34.780 --> 27:36.020 or order on our website. 27:36.020 --> 27:38.500 And you can use it to convince your local administration. 27:38.500 --> 27:43.260 And we have seen, for example, volunteers who managed to convince a whole parliament 27:43.260 --> 27:48.220 to sign our campaign, the Parliament of Asturias in Spain, where Hackspace worked for like 27:48.220 --> 27:52.740 pretty much like one, one and a half year to convince the parliament to sign this campaign. 27:52.740 --> 27:54.500 And I think that's awesome work. 27:54.500 --> 28:00.860 And this also shows how you can, as a volunteer on a regional and local level, make a huge 28:00.860 --> 28:01.340 change. 28:01.340 --> 28:07.180 And that's something I think you can still do where you can learn from best practices. 28:07.180 --> 28:10.860 You can see that it works out and where you can make a change. 28:10.860 --> 28:16.820 And this, for example, definitely something where you can not only help us as FSFE, but 28:16.820 --> 28:18.740 basically the whole movement. 28:18.740 --> 28:21.620 And we also do have other campaigns. 28:21.660 --> 28:30.860 So if you are young, for example, I think that's some body, very, very old stars between 28:30.860 --> 28:36.820 14 and 18, for example, we are running a use hacking for freedom contest. 28:36.820 --> 28:42.100 And that's also something where we are looking for, for, yeah, basically, free software 28:42.100 --> 28:44.260 contributions from, from teenagers. 28:44.260 --> 28:47.580 And we have seen some pretty cool projects in the last two years. 28:47.980 --> 28:54.220 And that's also something where you can take part and contribute to the movement, basically. 28:54.740 --> 28:59.300 And I mean, we have other campaigns like on router freedom, basically device 28:59.300 --> 29:00.900 neutrality is a topic we cover. 29:01.300 --> 29:03.900 And there are so many activities you can join. 29:03.900 --> 29:11.340 And we have a dedicated part on our website where you can like click and join. 29:11.340 --> 29:16.780 And you can also help Bonnie, for example, with translations, which is also heavily 29:16.780 --> 29:20.500 needed, because I do believe that translation plays also an important role when we 29:20.500 --> 29:24.580 talk about Europe and like the distribution of news. 29:25.420 --> 29:26.660 Yeah, no, it's true. 29:26.660 --> 29:31.500 Like with translations, you always make information available to people who do not 29:31.500 --> 29:32.140 speak English. 29:33.140 --> 29:34.940 And so thank you, Alex. 29:36.020 --> 29:40.060 Karen, for you, from your side, what's funny, I was going to give a similar, like 29:40.180 --> 29:43.100 think globally act locally kind of answer. 29:43.980 --> 29:49.020 You know, like, it's, I always say, it's never a bad time to talk about software 29:49.020 --> 29:52.540 freedom, like talk about software freedom in the doctor's office. 29:53.940 --> 30:00.540 The grocery store, my relatives, and, you know, like, it's, it's, it's having a 30:00.540 --> 30:05.580 network of people that are like you people listening that talking to the folks that 30:05.580 --> 30:10.820 you know, not in a like preachy kind of like, like you've got to listen to the 30:10.820 --> 30:12.180 thing I'm talking about. 30:12.180 --> 30:15.980 And if you don't understand, you're a bad person, but more like, have you thought 30:15.980 --> 30:16.500 about this? 30:16.500 --> 30:17.260 And it's really cool. 30:17.260 --> 30:18.580 And this is what I care about. 30:18.580 --> 30:19.940 And have you thought about it? 30:19.940 --> 30:22.180 And like, you know, we really could do things differently. 30:22.180 --> 30:26.180 Like there are gentle conversations that you could consistently have that make a 30:26.180 --> 30:30.380 huge difference, even if you're not going to, you know, your local legislature, 30:30.380 --> 30:31.620 which I recommend that you do. 30:31.860 --> 30:33.580 But like that's a lot for some people. 30:33.580 --> 30:36.700 It's enough for you to just persistently talk about it. 30:36.940 --> 30:41.660 I am that annoying person at like parent teacher meetings who raises my hand and 30:41.660 --> 30:45.860 say, says, do we really need to be using Google accounts for that? 30:45.860 --> 30:47.500 Like Google services for this? 30:47.500 --> 30:52.300 Because, you know, like, you know, or, or Zoom is like a really problematic 30:52.300 --> 30:55.580 technology, just want to like take a second and like, maybe think about if we 30:55.580 --> 30:56.620 could do something better. 30:56.900 --> 31:00.420 And we're at the point where I was saying where people respond to that. 31:00.660 --> 31:04.980 So, you know, and then I think if you want to act really locally, you could take 31:04.980 --> 31:07.900 a look at the things that you buy. 31:08.540 --> 31:13.740 And if there's copy left at software in your devices with anything embedded, 31:14.020 --> 31:19.140 then you can, you can ask for that source code, check and see if there's an 31:19.140 --> 31:22.100 offer for source and ask the company for the source. 31:22.140 --> 31:26.580 Like the more people that do it, the more companies get the message that 31:26.700 --> 31:29.380 following the rules and providing the source code is important. 31:29.660 --> 31:33.620 And then, you know, like we're working on ways by the time this is released, 31:33.620 --> 31:37.860 we'll have launched a website called, called use the source where people can 31:37.860 --> 31:41.820 come and if you get a source candidate from requesting source code, you can put 31:41.820 --> 31:46.620 it up there and analyze it, see if it's like a compliance and then work together. 31:46.620 --> 31:50.060 If there's something you want to fix or if there's something that, you know, if 31:50.060 --> 31:54.420 there's, if there's some kind of way that we could use the source code to make 31:54.420 --> 31:59.260 our, our equipment better, like that's a, a place that we could start. 31:59.420 --> 32:00.740 So I'm really excited about that. 32:00.740 --> 32:02.900 And I think that's actually launching today at Fossam. 32:03.380 --> 32:04.020 Wow. 32:05.020 --> 32:06.260 That sounds pretty nice. 32:06.660 --> 32:11.980 Um, if something is happening, like if some, if they don't respond correctly, 32:12.020 --> 32:13.140 is there any help? 32:14.140 --> 32:14.780 Yeah, I mean, so 32:14.780 --> 32:17.020 If you could offer from the Freedom Conservancy. 32:17.100 --> 32:21.020 So what I'm really excited about this is that this is like a way for ordinary 32:21.020 --> 32:24.860 people to learn how to check whether source code is in compliance. 32:25.100 --> 32:28.580 And so it's a forum where people can teach each other and talk to each other. 32:28.900 --> 32:33.100 And, um, we at Software Freedom Conservancy, we hold all of these skills. 32:33.100 --> 32:34.700 There are a few people that are around. 32:34.700 --> 32:38.260 Some people work, help with the FSFE with us once in a while, but like really 32:38.260 --> 32:41.740 we've got the, like the, the shop of people, like all the people who used to 32:41.740 --> 32:44.740 work at the Free Software Foundation doing it and now working for us. 32:44.900 --> 32:50.540 And it's wrong for us to just have that knowledge in-house and, you know, not 32:50.540 --> 32:51.140 share it. 32:51.180 --> 32:55.700 And so this is like a real effort to bring GPL compliance checking into the 32:55.700 --> 32:58.500 public and anyone can learn it and you can all check it. 32:58.620 --> 33:01.100 Like, so, so that's the idea about it. 33:01.460 --> 33:04.420 As far as companies are concerned, like, will we help them? 33:04.620 --> 33:05.660 You know, it's really interesting. 33:05.660 --> 33:09.300 We decided that what we're going to do is we're going to give, we're going to 33:09.300 --> 33:12.700 let companies register with our website. 33:13.300 --> 33:18.060 And if they register with Use the Source, if somebody wants to post a source 33:18.060 --> 33:23.580 candidate for a company's products, then we will notify the company if they 33:23.580 --> 33:27.900 registered with us and they'll have seven days to, like, double check whether 33:27.900 --> 33:31.220 or not that's like a source candidate they want there. 33:31.540 --> 33:36.780 And so, like, to begin a dialogue and then folks could, you know, like, you 33:36.780 --> 33:40.780 know, there, these are source candidates that have been published so or been 33:40.780 --> 33:41.540 sent around. 33:41.540 --> 33:45.500 So the company should stand behind them, but it's a further way to engage 33:45.500 --> 33:47.820 those companies so that we could see more compliance in the long run. 33:47.820 --> 33:52.740 And our lawsuits in the United States are really focused on establishing a 33:52.780 --> 33:56.020 third party right to be able to get your source code. 33:56.300 --> 33:59.420 And so that's what we've been really focused on because while it's important 33:59.420 --> 34:02.940 that the folks that write the software that have the copyrights are able to 34:02.940 --> 34:08.140 license the code in a way that's shared, ultimately, if that doesn't result in 34:08.140 --> 34:12.460 downstream people getting the source code and, like, being able to modify it, 34:12.460 --> 34:14.500 then it doesn't really stand for very much. 34:14.540 --> 34:18.180 So I'm excited to see we recently had a decision. 34:18.900 --> 34:25.100 It's just a procedural decision, but the judge in our Visio case wrote very, 34:25.100 --> 34:30.100 very strongly saying that there are third party rights with respect to enforcement. 34:30.100 --> 34:33.380 So I'm really excited about that and we'll see it all kind of fits together. 34:33.380 --> 34:37.740 So ask, ask for your, ask for your source, everybody, exercise your offer. 34:39.820 --> 34:45.380 I take this as a good word for my last and final question. 34:46.020 --> 34:48.100 You all know I love Free Software Day on this day. 34:48.100 --> 34:50.820 We say thank you to all the contributors for free software. 34:51.540 --> 34:54.260 And I would like to hear from you. 34:54.260 --> 34:58.500 Is there a, is there a project or a contributor that you would like to say 34:58.500 --> 35:02.700 thank you to? If there is someone who pops into your mind. 35:02.700 --> 35:04.780 I know Alex Free Software Games. 35:04.780 --> 35:06.780 Alex loves Free Software Games. 35:06.780 --> 35:07.780 I have a new one. 35:07.780 --> 35:08.780 I have a new one. 35:08.780 --> 35:09.780 I'm sorry. 35:09.780 --> 35:11.780 OK, don't know what I hear. 35:12.180 --> 35:14.620 I was in the conference last year in Valencia 35:14.620 --> 35:18.260 and that was a community of coin collectors. 35:18.260 --> 35:23.180 And these coin collectors are using a free software tool that brings them together. 35:23.740 --> 35:26.340 And I learned a lot about collecting coins, 35:27.420 --> 35:29.380 but even more about this awesome tool. 35:29.380 --> 35:34.300 And that's, I think, something it's, it's a tool made by, I think, a few people. 35:35.300 --> 35:37.060 And it's called DelDao. 35:37.060 --> 35:41.900 And it's basically, yeah, out there to bring together these, 35:41.900 --> 35:46.100 these communities collecting coins, but also there's a university in New York 35:46.100 --> 35:53.140 and the professor is using the tool to collect some historic data about interviews she made. 35:53.140 --> 35:59.940 And so you can also see how the tool is like growing with the needs of the community. 35:59.940 --> 36:04.260 And it's, it was just like lovely to see how they interacted for two days 36:04.700 --> 36:10.420 in order to come together around a tool which was created by two people, basically. 36:10.420 --> 36:14.660 And that was just lovely to see and basically exactly this 36:14.660 --> 36:17.580 while of this free software community so much. 36:17.580 --> 36:21.220 So that was just an outstanding moment and a lovely conference. 36:21.220 --> 36:24.140 And that's why I want to mention them here in this podcast and want to thank them, 36:24.460 --> 36:27.060 even if I'm not using the tool. 36:27.060 --> 36:28.740 No coin collector. 36:28.740 --> 36:30.340 I'm not a coin collector. 36:30.340 --> 36:31.500 But it sounds really nice. 36:31.500 --> 36:35.460 I think this is the spirit of free software that we need this community spirit. 36:35.460 --> 36:39.700 And this we are here together and let's start this movement. 36:39.940 --> 36:40.580 Absolutely. 36:41.460 --> 36:42.500 Karen, you're thank you. 36:42.500 --> 36:44.580 I have two things that I'm going to say. 36:44.580 --> 36:46.260 I think I hope that's okay. 36:46.260 --> 36:47.860 The first one is you, Bonnie. 36:47.860 --> 36:48.740 Oh my God, no. 36:48.740 --> 36:50.340 Oh, I know, I know. 36:50.340 --> 36:54.500 It is because you bring so much enthusiasm to these conversations. 36:54.500 --> 36:58.100 And like, I have to say, like I've talked to you more over the last year 36:58.100 --> 37:03.620 and like every time I talk to you, I'm so impressed with how committed to software freedom you are 37:03.620 --> 37:09.540 and how you're able to drive the conversation in ways that make it a lot more impactful and effective. 37:09.620 --> 37:10.820 So thank you. 37:10.820 --> 37:12.180 I really appreciate you. 37:12.180 --> 37:12.820 Thank you. 37:12.820 --> 37:13.620 That's really nice. 37:13.620 --> 37:17.140 But lest I seem like I'm trying to butter up the host of this podcast. 37:18.660 --> 37:21.460 The second thing that popped into my head is a little premature 37:21.460 --> 37:23.940 because I haven't actually used it yet, but I'm really excited. 37:23.940 --> 37:25.140 I'm so excited to that. 37:25.700 --> 37:31.940 It's valetudo because I bought, I've always wanted a robot vacuum. 37:31.940 --> 37:35.140 And it's all part of our devices are really problematic. 37:35.140 --> 37:36.260 They're super problematic. 37:37.140 --> 37:40.180 Like they're, and valetudo doesn't solve all the problems, 37:40.180 --> 37:44.020 but it does at least allow you, it is free software and it allows you 37:44.020 --> 37:47.220 to not have your robot vacuum centralized. 37:47.220 --> 37:52.500 And you can limit, you can basically replace a good amount of the software with free software. 37:52.500 --> 37:56.740 And I'm super excited to be able to try out a robot vacuum in my house. 37:57.860 --> 37:59.780 I'm also super excited for this. 37:59.780 --> 38:00.820 I'll have to report back. 38:00.820 --> 38:05.460 And you know, I'm also going to have to like figure out if the robot vacuum, 38:05.460 --> 38:09.140 when I get it, I have to figure out, like, you know, if there's an offer for source, 38:09.140 --> 38:13.300 like how badly the vacuum is in violation and like, you know, 38:13.300 --> 38:17.940 whether or not we really should be having access to the, you know, like, but, 38:17.940 --> 38:21.460 but nonetheless, I think this is, this is a really cool project. 38:21.460 --> 38:22.980 And I'm very excited to try. 38:29.140 --> 38:30.180 All right. 38:30.180 --> 38:32.100 Thank you too for being here. 38:32.100 --> 38:35.380 Thank you for talking about free software with me and the current status. 38:35.380 --> 38:41.060 I know it's a broad topic, but I still have the feeling that we're getting closer 38:41.620 --> 38:44.420 to software freedom, even if it's in us 300 years. 38:44.420 --> 38:46.100 I don't believe that, to be honest. 38:46.100 --> 38:47.220 I don't believe that at all. 38:47.220 --> 38:48.180 I don't either. 38:48.180 --> 38:50.180 I'm more positive about this. 38:50.180 --> 38:52.260 I would say there's so much happening. 38:52.260 --> 38:53.460 There's so much going on. 38:53.460 --> 38:59.220 And especially with, I have to feeling like over the past year, you talk to so many MPs 38:59.860 --> 39:03.940 and it's like crazy how many of them are listening and how many of them 39:03.940 --> 39:10.180 actually understood free software, even if they are not like changing it in this moment. 39:10.180 --> 39:13.380 It is a groundwork and it's happening. 39:13.380 --> 39:19.540 And also every time I research free software in the US, it's like, 39:19.540 --> 39:24.020 I do have the feeling that it's also, yeah, I really have the feeling that 39:24.020 --> 39:25.140 there is a lot of optimism. 39:25.380 --> 39:31.780 The FCC reached out to us to ask us to participate in a panel to get information from us. 39:31.780 --> 39:32.580 And that was public. 39:32.580 --> 39:36.900 And then the FCC submitted that panel to the copyright office without even, 39:37.460 --> 39:40.180 like as part of their own process. 39:40.180 --> 39:41.060 And that was very exciting. 39:41.060 --> 39:43.300 We submitted our own comments to the copyright office. 39:43.300 --> 39:45.300 We submitted our own comments to NIST. 39:45.300 --> 39:48.100 So we're trying to be active in all of those forums, 39:48.100 --> 39:53.300 but to see the interest coming from the agencies before we even were reaching out to them is great. 39:55.140 --> 39:59.140 Optimism, it's happening and we can all participate. 39:59.940 --> 40:01.860 So this is the most important thing. 40:01.860 --> 40:03.860 So thank you too for being here. 40:03.860 --> 40:06.420 And with this, I will release you to your death room. 40:10.020 --> 40:13.140 This will happen quite soon as far as I hear. 40:15.700 --> 40:17.540 This was the Software Freedom podcast. 40:17.540 --> 40:20.900 This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 40:20.900 --> 40:24.500 We are a charity that empowers users to control technology. 40:24.500 --> 40:28.500 If you like this podcast, please recommend it to your friends and rate it. 40:28.500 --> 40:33.860 You can also support us with that donation under fse.org slash donate. 40:34.820 --> 40:45.860 Bye bye.