Transcript of SFP#26: Policy and EU: the need of long-term funding and the NGI case
This is a transcript created with the Free Software tool Whisper. For more information and feedback reach out to podcast@fsfe.org
1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,640 Before we start with the podcast, we would like to say thank you to all of you who support 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,740 the FSFE's work of money. 3 00:00:07,740 --> 00:00:12,760 Working for software freedom and producing podcasts costs money. 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:18,200 Please consider supporting us with our nation under FSFE.org, slash donate and in the 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:19,200 show notes. 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:36,880 Welcome to the software freedom podcast. 7 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,760 This podcast is presented to you by the free software foundation Europe. 8 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,640 We are a charity that empowers users to take control of technology. 9 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,040 I'm Bonnie Merring and our guest for this episode is Alexander Sandar. 10 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:56,880 Alex is a colleague of mine and he's also the senior policy consultant for the FSFE. 11 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:02,360 In his work for the FSFE, he monitors the current happenings in the EU and pushes for 12 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,960 recognition of free software there. 13 00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:11,880 Today we will talk a bit about funding of free software and especially the case of the 14 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:17,920 NLNet foundation and thereby the funding of the next generation internet. 15 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:24,320 Through the next generation internet program, free software projects are funded by public 16 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:25,320 money. 17 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:30,280 But this funding was actually cut by 27 million euros. 18 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,960 When this news reached the FSFE and Alex, we decided to take action. 19 00:01:35,960 --> 00:01:41,880 About this and the latest developments, I will talk more with Alex in the next few minutes. 20 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:43,200 So thank you very much Alex. 21 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,040 I'm very, very happy to have you here at the software freedom podcast, especially since 22 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:49,240 we do a lot together. 23 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:56,720 So we do the EU packing for freedom competition for young teenagers, we occasionally work 24 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:02,400 together on public money, public code and now we also do the software freedom podcast 25 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:03,400 together. 26 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,520 Thank you so much for making this possible and for finding the time to talk to me. 27 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:08,520 Yeah. 28 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:09,520 Thanks for having me, Bonnie. 29 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:14,320 And I'm also looking forward to talk to you and our community about this very important 30 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:15,520 issue in the next minutes. 31 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,480 Look really looking forward. 32 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:24,360 So just to give everybody a quick interaction, could you tell us a bit more of what an 33 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:30,640 Lnet is and what the next generation internet program is and what actually happened there? 34 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:34,560 How did this cut of 27 million happen? 35 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:35,560 Yeah. 36 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:36,560 I will try. 37 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:44,400 A lot of questions and it's also a bit complex with all the words, but I'll give it a try. 38 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:49,600 So first of all, you already said the next generation internet program. 39 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:57,800 So this is basically a front which helps you come up with solutions that help people 40 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:04,160 in the internet and here with a specific focus on free software, right? 41 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:09,680 So because we know free software visits for freedoms to use, study, share and improve 42 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,960 definitely helps to gain control over the technology you are using. 43 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:22,960 And that is acknowledged in this fund and thus this fund provides financial support to projects 44 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:28,600 like Jitsi, Kripport, F1, peer tube and other projects you might know. 45 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,840 And here you can already see the money is not going to big tech, but rather to community 46 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:39,160 projects, to small project, individual projects, projects by foundations. 47 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:45,000 So it's about basically the core infrastructure that we are using every day when we are 48 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,080 going in the internet. 49 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:53,440 So it's more small projects that are funded by the NGI. 50 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:59,800 So the NGI project basically funds up to around 500 projects, right? 51 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:06,960 So there are many projects around all of them pretty like on the size of Jitsi, Kripport, 52 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,520 have tried stuff like this, right? 53 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,480 So but you won't find any gurus or Microsoft's in this fund. 54 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,480 All right. 55 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:22,520 And also the next generation internet is part of a bigger program, namely the Horizon Europe 56 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:23,520 program. 57 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:29,760 The Horizon Europe program is a research, the framework research program of the European Union 58 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:35,480 and their money is distributed as a name says, obviously, into research projects. 59 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:41,920 So here you can normally find pilot projects, one time projects, maybe sometimes project 60 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,440 that go for a second term, a second one. 61 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,440 But normally it's like a one project thing, then you have done your research, you found 62 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,800 your results, and then you continue. 63 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:58,040 So you see it's slightly different than what you have in mind when you were thinking 64 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,080 about like investing in encryption of Jitsi, for example. 65 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:10,160 So that's also some kind of research, definitely, but it's rather investing in our core infrastructure. 66 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:19,000 So you can already see that there is a slight issue with the frame of this funding. 67 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,320 But however in the last years, it worked out perfectly. 68 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:30,960 So in this next generation internet program, the Net Foundation, a foundation from the Netherlands, 69 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,560 they were distributing the funds to these tiny free software project that helped to improve 70 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:36,560 their code. 71 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,400 And by thus, we had way better tools than out there than before. 72 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,200 And this should have continued until 2027, basically. 73 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,880 And for this, there are work programs. 74 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:52,600 So for every two years, the European Commission, together with the member states of the European 75 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:58,440 Union, write on a work program to come up with a sketch, basically, to say what should 76 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,560 happen, where should the money go roughly in the next two years? 77 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,640 So in this work program, that was exactly, yeah. 78 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:11,640 And that work program that was released during the summer break. 79 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:19,120 And when I say released, it was publicly released, but it was basically released towards 80 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:24,160 the member state with the European Union, but it was not released to the public. 81 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:29,560 In this work program, we have seen that there is a cut of this budget for free software. 82 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,280 27 millions that we expected to be there, haven't been there. 83 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:36,160 So there was simply nothing. 84 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,640 So we figured this out with a leak. 85 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:45,320 And then we got active because we have seen during the summer 27 millions that had to 86 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:51,480 be assigned to free software projects, right to do these Gizzi project script, and so on 87 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,200 and so forth, the examples I mentioned for the next two years, they have been cut. 88 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:01,440 That was the situation in the summer, and then we started to work. 89 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:09,160 So this leak reached our ears, and we decided to work, but how did you feel at the moment 90 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:15,040 when you noticed, oh my god, okay, where are the 27 millions, where have they gone? 91 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,160 Yeah, I'm not sure if I can like publicly say what I really felt, but let's put it like 92 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:29,600 this, I was pretty upset, yeah, and also I was, to be honest, I didn't expect it, and 93 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,320 I haven't seen it coming because in the beginning of the year, at first, then the 94 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:39,440 largest free software conference in the world, which is happening in Brussels, always the 95 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:46,200 first week and in February, there we invited to commission in our death room to talk about 96 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:52,320 this NGI funding, and there they presented a study where they showcased how important 97 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,120 this NGI funding is, how good this funding is, how well everything works, and how important 98 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:02,800 this is not only for the tools itself and our consumers, but also for the European Union, 99 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:09,400 right, so all in the studies, they presented there, showed how important and how good 100 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:10,400 this funding is. 101 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:15,080 It was in the beginning of the year, and then during the summer break, there was this 102 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:20,360 budget cut, so I definitely started to call people, I was asking around what happened, 103 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:25,200 and then I figured out, wow, they shifted the money towards AI. 104 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:31,040 So instead of bringing these 27 million euros into free software and build, they decided 105 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:37,560 they wanted to shift it towards AI, and the argument was pretty much as these funds 106 00:08:37,560 --> 00:08:43,160 are made for research, they want to shift the focus to research since the whole European 107 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:48,320 Union, basically you know the debate after the AI Act is now shifting towards this password 108 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,120 and all the money should go into AI. 109 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:56,920 So that's the problem we faced, and that's also what I then quickly figured out and where 110 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:03,240 we have been a bit upset and see the need to talk. 111 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:10,840 All right, so they decided to shift the money around and what did we do, what happened 112 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:11,840 then? 113 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:18,960 I mean, it was not only us who figured this out, I mean also other communities, also 114 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,680 beneficiaries have figured out that there was an issue, and one of the first reaction 115 00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:30,400 was that in France some free software communities came together with an open letter, and they 116 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:37,320 addressed the European Commission on this, and they wanted to get the funds back, but it 117 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:45,040 was pretty much like on this specific 27 million funds, but I figured out that also with 118 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:50,040 the argument that the Commission came up, that they said, hmm, research, we need to shift 119 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:58,360 our priorities, I have seen that we have a larger issue here, so I have seen that we need 120 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:05,800 to move the funds also away from the horizon Europe into something, so away from research 121 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,360 into something which is core funding, which is sustainable, which is something where it's 122 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,560 not simply happening that the Commission is sitting there in a summer break, and they 123 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:18,920 are, we cut this funding, there should be a possibility to publicly debate this, to 124 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:25,760 have some more visibility on this, and so that is why we asked our community to also contact 125 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:33,880 the Commission directly on this, so we called on our community to call pretty much the president 126 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:39,120 of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, and write your emails on that, coming 127 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:44,600 up with the argument that first of all these 27 millions mean some projects might even 128 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:49,720 die on the way, right, so we can't improve them, it's also bad, but also that we want 129 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:56,560 to move the funds away to something core funding, and people did this, so people were reaching 130 00:10:56,560 --> 00:11:02,200 out to the European Commission based on our arguments, letting them all individually 131 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:07,280 created, so it was not like a standard letter they used, but they reused our arguments, 132 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:13,200 so we put it in a way that we helped them to cut up this individual letters to the Commission, 133 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:19,480 and this led to the situation that the Commission also reacted, so in the first place, also 134 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,280 when journalists asked them on this, they didn't have any saying on this, they didn't 135 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:29,360 wanted to speak publicly about this, but due to the open letter from France and our activity 136 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:34,720 from the FBI on contacting the Commission directly, there were some movements within 137 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,280 the Commission, and they reacted, and by that we got contact to a head of unit being 138 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:44,840 in charge of the program, and by that we started basically in dialogue with the European 139 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:49,920 Commission, and this led to the fact that they at least acknowledged already at this time 140 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:56,360 that was then August September, and that they at least want to try to make sure that 141 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:03,480 they will try to sprinkle the money still towards free software projects, even if it's 142 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:09,120 not in there anymore. However, I mean, this is just a vague statement, rather than nothing 143 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:15,960 for sure, but it is still vague, as it doesn't give us really a chance to say like, we can 144 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:23,760 monitor this or how much is this like in euros, for example, so there was not really a 145 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:29,360 chance for us for oversight, so and by that we continued, and followed up with the reaction, 146 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:34,480 yeah, try to stay in touch with the European Commission, but also in the meantime we went 147 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:40,760 to the European Parliament, and try to find members of the Parliament that will come up with 148 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:47,840 amendments in this direction to change the text of this funding so that we can get the 149 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:55,120 money back and that they basically asked the Commission to reintroduce these 27 million, 150 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,720 so and the European Parliament did, so there have been members and the Parliament who came 151 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:06,320 up with these amendments, unfortunately they didn't found a majority since the Conservatives 152 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:12,880 didn't want to earmark the money, but they said, so they didn't want to give it precisely 153 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:18,640 to free and open source software or free software, but they rather want to say we want to invest 154 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:25,040 in digital, so to say, so that's why this amendment didn't found a majority, but still 155 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,000 right, political costs were rising, people were talking about this, the debate was happening, 156 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:37,040 and all of the sudden there was then also the consultation on the digital euro program, 157 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:46,880 so another program to add to the complexity, right, and the digital euro program is a program 158 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:52,720 which was introduced in light of the corona crisis, in order to move funds into the digital 159 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:58,560 solutions we needed during the corona crisis, but also in the aftermath, as people understood, 160 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:05,360 we need to invest in our own technology, in our own tools, and this is a good idea to do this 161 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:16,480 free software, and let me quickly cut in there, there are a lot of programs around now just to give 162 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:23,920 this wrap up and some overview, so we have the horizon Europe that is actually intended for research 163 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:33,600 where the NLNet foundation and the next generation internet program are situated at, so this was 164 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,320 the funding that was going to free software project, and this was the funding that was shifted 165 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:45,920 then to AI during the summer break, and then we have the digital euro program which is 166 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:53,760 absolutely independent of the horizon Europe, correct? Exactly, and this was introduced 167 00:14:53,760 --> 00:15:00,640 during corona, so what was the focus of the digital euro program? It doesn't matter so much to be 168 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:07,440 honest, it only matters that the digital euro program runs until 2027, which means, and there will 169 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:14,640 be a reform or like a renewal of the digital euro program very, very soon, it will happen 170 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:21,600 obviously until 2027, so that from 2028 onwards, we have a new digital euro program, 171 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:28,160 and digital euro as said was basically in the first place introduced to fix corona, 172 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:37,040 one could say this is done, so now we need to look forward and see how can we prevent a situation 173 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:42,640 happening again like corona, and there we say we need to invest in the core infrastructure, 174 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:48,720 and that's why we do believe that the digital, the next digital euro program, which needs to be 175 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:55,280 set up, which needs to be discussed in the next two years, this should be the new space for 176 00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:02,400 this core funding, and there we also need some new criteria, and we also need some 177 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:10,720 some more oversight other than that we have seen in the horizon Europe and in the NGI program, 178 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:16,480 so basically what we want to do or what we are asking to commission is to come up with a sustainable 179 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:23,840 long-term funding for free software, which should not only focus on research, and therefore we had 180 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,960 the idea to move it to the digital euro program. However, I'm also fine if they come up with a 181 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:34,560 own completely new budget, but since it is very difficult to come up with completely new 182 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:40,560 things, it's better to shift things into existing ones, and that's why we are asking for a reform 183 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:47,920 of the digital euro program, and part of this reform should be that we introduce a sustainable 184 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:57,120 long-term fund with dedicated oversight and overview for SMEs in Europe, for micro-ender prices, 185 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:05,360 for communities, for charities, and individual developers for foundations might so, for all these 186 00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:12,480 projects that have been financed in the NGI before to move this into the digital euro program, 187 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:19,040 but it's better oversight. What did we do then, like how did we take action basically? 188 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:27,440 Yeah, and for this, the European Commission from time to time runs public consultations, 189 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:33,600 so whenever they evaluate or whenever they come up with something new, they ask the public on their 190 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:40,000 takes, and here also just slightly after the summer break, the European Commission opened a 191 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:46,800 consultation on the digital euro program, and there we took part in this consultation, and there 192 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,920 we asked for this sustainable long-term fund. We said this fund need to be open to individual 193 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:58,400 developers for communities, as I just said, and basically all of these demands are just 194 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:06,240 outline. Basically, these kinds of demands we moved into this consultation and asked the 195 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:13,120 Commission to act accordingly, and also we asked our community to do the same, so we published 196 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:20,320 our answers to this consultation, we were outlining what we see, how our arguments 197 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:27,600 could be reused, and we basically asked our community to take part in this consultation, 198 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,080 and to follow these arguments and to basically ask for this sustainable long-term funding, 199 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:42,080 and normally these consultations attract some experts, some lobbyists, maybe from time to time, 200 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:49,920 individuals, but normally only a few people take part, but after the consultation was closed, 201 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:56,480 we have seen nearly 800 people took part in this consultation. This is completely outstanding. 202 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:04,240 To give you some context, maybe just a few weeks ago, there was a consultation on AI and the 203 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:10,320 European Commission released the press release that 400 people took part, and this is really outstanding, 204 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:17,040 and I can tell you there was no press release on this consultation where 800, or nearly 800 people 205 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:24,160 took part, but you can see, right, so we really managed it to shed a lot of light on this consultation, 206 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:30,800 many people took part, and just of today, as we are talking, and so basically today is the 207 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:38,320 13th of November, the results have been published of the consultation, and it is pretty clear 208 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:45,520 that people were following basically our call and asked for this sustainable long-term funding, 209 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:51,760 and what is even more important, they did this on an individual basis, not by copy and paste, 210 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:59,520 what we did, but they came up with their own words, and this underlines not only the knowledge 211 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:06,400 in our community, and also the, yeah, basically the courage to take part in such a consultation, 212 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:11,200 which is not very common, and also to come up with their own words, since they see the problem, 213 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:17,680 and then they can describe the problem pretty well in their own words. We have a very, very good 214 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:24,400 answer to the consultation now, and the commission released a report where they clearly said that 215 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:30,560 this is a calling demand from people taking part in this consultation. They also see that, 216 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:37,600 and they also write it, that we, yeah, did the call on this, and they refer to our 217 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:45,920 block posts, news items, where we were writing about it, but also other than that, it clearly shows 218 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,400 that people gave individual answers that they took a lot of time and efforts to take part in this 219 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:55,360 consultation, to tell the combination, we want this sustainable long-term fund, and I think that's 220 00:20:55,360 --> 00:21:00,240 already a success in itself, so I want to use this opportunity here to thank everyone who took 221 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,880 part in this consultation. This is super, super helpful, because with this, we can create a lot 222 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,600 of pressure towards the commission, but also do you remember states to really come up with such a fund? 223 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:16,960 This is a short break for our own cause. Thank you for listening to the Software Freedom podcast. 224 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:23,280 Working for Software Freedom and producing podcasts costs money. Please consider supporting us 225 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:28,240 with a donation on the fsfe.org slash donate and then the show notes. 226 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,840 So this is now being discussed, or what are the next steps here? 227 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,520 Yeah, I mean, I've definitely, and I also would like to say thank you to everybody who participated. 228 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,320 This is like, I'm sorry, I just quickly passed over it as he, 229 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:56,160 no, but it is truly remarkable, and it is amazing that people actually care about free software 230 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,880 that much that they sit down, write their arguments down, and think about it, so I'm, 231 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,440 I also find this very touching that it's not something that people 232 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:14,400 take lightly, but they want to support. Indeed. And it definitely helps in the political process. 233 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:22,560 So it helps us to create pressure to always bring up this argument, since we can always say, 234 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:29,360 look back in this consultation, there was a clear demand by the public to do this. And also, 235 00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:36,000 you have acknowledged this in your own analysis afterwards. So I mean, what's happening now is 236 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:42,400 in the second, probably nothing other than we analyze this, we discuss this, and it's definitely 237 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:48,080 a long-term game, right? So it's not an activity. You can a bit compare it to our public money, 238 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,640 public code campaign, right? So where we asked public administrations to invest 239 00:22:53,440 --> 00:23:00,080 into free software, rather than proprietary software, when they do procurement processes. 240 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:06,560 Also, this is a long-term game, which goes step-by-step where we see progress, not every day, 241 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,640 but we see progress, right? And also in the last years, we have seen progress, and that's 242 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,640 the same as the funding. So it won't be that we get from one day to another, 243 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:23,440 is we billions of euros to invest in our core infrastructure, but it will rather be a step-by-step 244 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:31,120 thing. And for these steps, this consultation helps, and the consultation is definitely a major step. 245 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:39,040 In this, since we can directly go to the commission, we can directly demand from them. Also, 246 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:45,440 members of the European Parliament can table with questions of this, thereby the reports about it, 247 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:51,440 media, and by that, we publicly need to discuss, right? So we need to rise the political costs, 248 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:58,000 so to say, so that this is a really a topic that they need to take care of. And this worked out, 249 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,840 and this will continue to work out if we continue to work that closely together with our community. 250 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:11,520 I'm really looking forward to this. There will be a few more moments in the next months and years 251 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:17,600 where we will definitely reach out to us, to our community, again, to help us here, since this 252 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:26,960 public pressure really, really helps. And in particular, in the European Union, you can debate 253 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,560 with the people you can discuss. There are no, we set majorities, they are flexible, you can fight 254 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:39,200 for majorities, and the more we bring in these good arguments, but also showcase that it's not only 255 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:46,960 FSE, FSE arguments, but these are arguments for the European Union, right? The more likely it is 256 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:56,000 that we get sufficient funds that are so heavily needed. So just to give also some context here, 257 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:07,120 I heard at some point that the European Union and the parliament and all the institutions, 258 00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:12,640 this is a very democratic process, actually, so that people can interact and can 259 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:20,080 also make their voices hear it. What would you say to this? So is this something that is happening 260 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:26,800 here as well? It definitely helps. I mean, we are not the ones who can automatically vote, 261 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:33,600 but we are the ones who can create pressures on these votes, and we can shed light on these votes. 262 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:39,520 And for my experience, I can tell you the more light on that debate is and the more 263 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:48,720 a topic is publicly debated, the more likely it is that also decision makers that do not really 264 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:54,720 work in this space, listen to the argument and make up their own mind. And this is what I mean with 265 00:25:54,720 --> 00:26:00,480 fighting for a majority. So there is nothing like what we know, an example from the member states, 266 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:07,760 right? So that you have basically governments deciding also more or less what to do next, 267 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:13,280 since they have their maturity. In the European parliament, there is no such clear maturity. 268 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:20,800 It's moving in every vote. And by thus, you can fight for such a majority to introduce such funds. 269 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:29,600 So it definitely helps if they see citizens care because they are their voters. And also other 270 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:38,560 than that, we also have seen that there are many other entities, basically, also the market 271 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:45,680 is asking for such a fund. So it would not only help citizens or consumer. It will also help 272 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,840 the European market and also European administrations and governments to come up with tools 273 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:58,080 where they have control over their technology. And as said, we are discussing digital solidarity. 274 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,160 And I really do believe that digital solidarity is not achievable without free software. So if 275 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,520 you don't have the four freedoms to you study, share and improve for your software, 276 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,440 you won't have digital sovereignty. And if you can make this point, and this is also on point, 277 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,800 an documentary race in the consultation and connected even better, the better people understand. 278 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:28,560 And from the last years and last debates, I can tell you the knowledge around free software 279 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:34,320 is rising every day in the European Union. And these debates also help to rise this 280 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:41,280 common level of understanding around free software. And that's also in itself very, very good. 281 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:47,680 So we have a public debate. We can bring out our arguments. They are understood. Also we have 282 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:54,400 from the Commission a study saying that these funds are needed. And also we have a new 283 00:27:54,400 --> 00:28:00,320 empowerment already some allies and tabling amendments in this direction. So it is a bit like 284 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:09,440 an encrowing thing. So I wouldn't say we have this majority today. But since we started in summer, 285 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,720 where there was basically nothing, what we achieved in the last months, I have to say this is 286 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:20,640 really, really impressive. And this is only doable thanks to the help of our community. So without 287 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:28,880 the participation of our community, we couldn't debate with this. So we couldn't be so confident in 288 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:34,160 all debates. How we are today and this definitely helps us to give us power in the debate, 289 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:41,200 to give us status in the debate. All right. Thank you so much for the update. And yeah, 290 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:48,560 taking us through this whole process and talking to me about what has happened, what will happen, 291 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:56,560 or what might happen in the future. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to hear more news about this 292 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:02,960 in the coming months. Maybe. But before we close, if you want to stay updated on this, 293 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,920 feel free to join our mailing lists, but also sign our public money public code campaign. 294 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:15,120 By last, you will also get updates and you will be around those if you like. If you click the 295 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:20,880 tick box that gets emails and information about it, when we are running such campaigns and when 296 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:27,200 we are asking our volunteers to step in and also port us here to help us. Because as said, there 297 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:33,120 will be more of these moments, there might be more consultations, there might be more moments when 298 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:38,880 we need to call the you can parliament to vote in a specific direction. And where we asked our 299 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,920 community to help us with a mail or a phone call or whatever. So and if you want to be around those 300 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:50,560 that get emails and get information on this, how you can help us please sign up at our mailing list, 301 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,600 go to fsfe.org, sign up for the newsletter and then you will be informed about this. I think 302 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,960 this will be super helpful if you want to join the activities. And as said, it's a long term game, 303 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,440 so there will be definitely more news on this and then not only in the next months, but I guess 304 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:18,720 three years. Also linked in the show notes, the newsletter. Yes. So with this, I would say thank you 305 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:24,080 very much, Alex. Thank you very much for taking us through this process. And yeah, as always, 306 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:30,880 it was a pleasure to have you here. Thanks for having me. It was fun. I hope it's not too much, 307 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:39,280 not too complex and still interesting. This is true. And also I think it's a very complex topic. 308 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:46,800 So I think this really helps to understand and to go through this process again and to understand 309 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:54,880 all the interactings and after different programs actually there. So it was a pleasure for me as well. 310 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,480 With this, I would say goodbye and thank you very much. Thank you. Bye bye. 311 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,480 This was the Software Freedom Podcast. If you liked this episode, please recommend it to 312 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,600 your friends and rated. Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance 313 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:17,360 of Software Freedom. This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 314 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,560 We are a charity that works on promoting Software Freedom. And if you like our work, please 315 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:29,520 consider supporting us with our donation. You find more information on the fsfe.org slash donate. 316 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,320 We depend on your support. Bye. 317 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:50,320 That was my question. I wanted to ask you all. I wanted to ask you how can others help to secure 318 00:31:50,320 --> 00:32:00,320 continuous funding of Free Software. But that was a great idea. I'll see you in the next one.