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Transcript of SFP#26: Policy and EU: the need of long-term funding and the NGI case

Back to the episode SFP#26

This is a transcript created with the Free Software tool Whisper. For more information and feedback reach out to podcast@fsfe.org

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Before we start with the podcast, we would like to say thank you to all of you who support

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the FSFE's work of money.

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Working for software freedom and producing podcasts costs money.

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Please consider supporting us with our nation under FSFE.org, slash donate and in the

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show notes.

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Welcome to the software freedom podcast.

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This podcast is presented to you by the free software foundation Europe.

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We are a charity that empowers users to take control of technology.

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I'm Bonnie Merring and our guest for this episode is Alexander Sandar.

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Alex is a colleague of mine and he's also the senior policy consultant for the FSFE.

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In his work for the FSFE, he monitors the current happenings in the EU and pushes for

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recognition of free software there.

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Today we will talk a bit about funding of free software and especially the case of the

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NLNet foundation and thereby the funding of the next generation internet.

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Through the next generation internet program, free software projects are funded by public

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money.

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But this funding was actually cut by 27 million euros.

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When this news reached the FSFE and Alex, we decided to take action.

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About this and the latest developments, I will talk more with Alex in the next few minutes.

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So thank you very much Alex.

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I'm very, very happy to have you here at the software freedom podcast, especially since

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we do a lot together.

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So we do the EU packing for freedom competition for young teenagers, we occasionally work

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together on public money, public code and now we also do the software freedom podcast

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together.

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Thank you so much for making this possible and for finding the time to talk to me.

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Yeah.

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Thanks for having me, Bonnie.

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And I'm also looking forward to talk to you and our community about this very important

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issue in the next minutes.

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Look really looking forward.

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So just to give everybody a quick interaction, could you tell us a bit more of what an

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Lnet is and what the next generation internet program is and what actually happened there?

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How did this cut of 27 million happen?

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Yeah.

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I will try.

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A lot of questions and it's also a bit complex with all the words, but I'll give it a try.

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So first of all, you already said the next generation internet program.

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So this is basically a front which helps you come up with solutions that help people

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in the internet and here with a specific focus on free software, right?

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So because we know free software visits for freedoms to use, study, share and improve

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definitely helps to gain control over the technology you are using.

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And that is acknowledged in this fund and thus this fund provides financial support to projects

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like Jitsi, Kripport, F1, peer tube and other projects you might know.

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And here you can already see the money is not going to big tech, but rather to community

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projects, to small project, individual projects, projects by foundations.

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So it's about basically the core infrastructure that we are using every day when we are

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going in the internet.

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So it's more small projects that are funded by the NGI.

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So the NGI project basically funds up to around 500 projects, right?

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So there are many projects around all of them pretty like on the size of Jitsi, Kripport,

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have tried stuff like this, right?

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So but you won't find any gurus or Microsoft's in this fund.

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All right.

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And also the next generation internet is part of a bigger program, namely the Horizon Europe

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program.

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The Horizon Europe program is a research, the framework research program of the European Union

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and their money is distributed as a name says, obviously, into research projects.

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So here you can normally find pilot projects, one time projects, maybe sometimes project

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that go for a second term, a second one.

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But normally it's like a one project thing, then you have done your research, you found

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your results, and then you continue.

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So you see it's slightly different than what you have in mind when you were thinking

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about like investing in encryption of Jitsi, for example.

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So that's also some kind of research, definitely, but it's rather investing in our core infrastructure.

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So you can already see that there is a slight issue with the frame of this funding.

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But however in the last years, it worked out perfectly.

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So in this next generation internet program, the Net Foundation, a foundation from the Netherlands,

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they were distributing the funds to these tiny free software project that helped to improve

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their code.

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And by thus, we had way better tools than out there than before.

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And this should have continued until 2027, basically.

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And for this, there are work programs.

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So for every two years, the European Commission, together with the member states of the European

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Union, write on a work program to come up with a sketch, basically, to say what should

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happen, where should the money go roughly in the next two years?

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So in this work program, that was exactly, yeah.

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And that work program that was released during the summer break.

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And when I say released, it was publicly released, but it was basically released towards

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the member state with the European Union, but it was not released to the public.

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In this work program, we have seen that there is a cut of this budget for free software.

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27 millions that we expected to be there, haven't been there.

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So there was simply nothing.

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So we figured this out with a leak.

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And then we got active because we have seen during the summer 27 millions that had to

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be assigned to free software projects, right to do these Gizzi project script, and so on

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and so forth, the examples I mentioned for the next two years, they have been cut.

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That was the situation in the summer, and then we started to work.

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So this leak reached our ears, and we decided to work, but how did you feel at the moment

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when you noticed, oh my god, okay, where are the 27 millions, where have they gone?

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Yeah, I'm not sure if I can like publicly say what I really felt, but let's put it like

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this, I was pretty upset, yeah, and also I was, to be honest, I didn't expect it, and

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I haven't seen it coming because in the beginning of the year, at first, then the

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largest free software conference in the world, which is happening in Brussels, always the

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first week and in February, there we invited to commission in our death room to talk about

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this NGI funding, and there they presented a study where they showcased how important

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this NGI funding is, how good this funding is, how well everything works, and how important

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this is not only for the tools itself and our consumers, but also for the European Union,

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right, so all in the studies, they presented there, showed how important and how good

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this funding is.

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It was in the beginning of the year, and then during the summer break, there was this

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budget cut, so I definitely started to call people, I was asking around what happened,

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and then I figured out, wow, they shifted the money towards AI.

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So instead of bringing these 27 million euros into free software and build, they decided

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they wanted to shift it towards AI, and the argument was pretty much as these funds

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are made for research, they want to shift the focus to research since the whole European

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Union, basically you know the debate after the AI Act is now shifting towards this password

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and all the money should go into AI.

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So that's the problem we faced, and that's also what I then quickly figured out and where

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we have been a bit upset and see the need to talk.

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All right, so they decided to shift the money around and what did we do, what happened

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then?

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I mean, it was not only us who figured this out, I mean also other communities, also

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beneficiaries have figured out that there was an issue, and one of the first reaction

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was that in France some free software communities came together with an open letter, and they

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addressed the European Commission on this, and they wanted to get the funds back, but it

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was pretty much like on this specific 27 million funds, but I figured out that also with

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the argument that the Commission came up, that they said, hmm, research, we need to shift

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our priorities, I have seen that we have a larger issue here, so I have seen that we need

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to move the funds also away from the horizon Europe into something, so away from research

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into something which is core funding, which is sustainable, which is something where it's

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not simply happening that the Commission is sitting there in a summer break, and they

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are, we cut this funding, there should be a possibility to publicly debate this, to

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have some more visibility on this, and so that is why we asked our community to also contact

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the Commission directly on this, so we called on our community to call pretty much the president

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of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, and write your emails on that, coming

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up with the argument that first of all these 27 millions mean some projects might even

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die on the way, right, so we can't improve them, it's also bad, but also that we want

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to move the funds away to something core funding, and people did this, so people were reaching

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out to the European Commission based on our arguments, letting them all individually

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created, so it was not like a standard letter they used, but they reused our arguments,

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so we put it in a way that we helped them to cut up this individual letters to the Commission,

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and this led to the situation that the Commission also reacted, so in the first place, also

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when journalists asked them on this, they didn't have any saying on this, they didn't

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wanted to speak publicly about this, but due to the open letter from France and our activity

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from the FBI on contacting the Commission directly, there were some movements within

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the Commission, and they reacted, and by that we got contact to a head of unit being

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in charge of the program, and by that we started basically in dialogue with the European

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Commission, and this led to the fact that they at least acknowledged already at this time

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that was then August September, and that they at least want to try to make sure that

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they will try to sprinkle the money still towards free software projects, even if it's

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not in there anymore. However, I mean, this is just a vague statement, rather than nothing

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for sure, but it is still vague, as it doesn't give us really a chance to say like, we can

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monitor this or how much is this like in euros, for example, so there was not really a

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chance for us for oversight, so and by that we continued, and followed up with the reaction,

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yeah, try to stay in touch with the European Commission, but also in the meantime we went

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to the European Parliament, and try to find members of the Parliament that will come up with

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amendments in this direction to change the text of this funding so that we can get the

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money back and that they basically asked the Commission to reintroduce these 27 million,

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so and the European Parliament did, so there have been members and the Parliament who came

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up with these amendments, unfortunately they didn't found a majority since the Conservatives

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didn't want to earmark the money, but they said, so they didn't want to give it precisely

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to free and open source software or free software, but they rather want to say we want to invest

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in digital, so to say, so that's why this amendment didn't found a majority, but still

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right, political costs were rising, people were talking about this, the debate was happening,

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and all of the sudden there was then also the consultation on the digital euro program,

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so another program to add to the complexity, right, and the digital euro program is a program

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which was introduced in light of the corona crisis, in order to move funds into the digital

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solutions we needed during the corona crisis, but also in the aftermath, as people understood,

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we need to invest in our own technology, in our own tools, and this is a good idea to do this

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free software, and let me quickly cut in there, there are a lot of programs around now just to give

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this wrap up and some overview, so we have the horizon Europe that is actually intended for research

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where the NLNet foundation and the next generation internet program are situated at, so this was

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the funding that was going to free software project, and this was the funding that was shifted

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then to AI during the summer break, and then we have the digital euro program which is

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absolutely independent of the horizon Europe, correct? Exactly, and this was introduced

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during corona, so what was the focus of the digital euro program? It doesn't matter so much to be

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honest, it only matters that the digital euro program runs until 2027, which means, and there will

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be a reform or like a renewal of the digital euro program very, very soon, it will happen

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obviously until 2027, so that from 2028 onwards, we have a new digital euro program,

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and digital euro as said was basically in the first place introduced to fix corona,

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one could say this is done, so now we need to look forward and see how can we prevent a situation

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happening again like corona, and there we say we need to invest in the core infrastructure,

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and that's why we do believe that the digital, the next digital euro program, which needs to be

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set up, which needs to be discussed in the next two years, this should be the new space for

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this core funding, and there we also need some new criteria, and we also need some

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some more oversight other than that we have seen in the horizon Europe and in the NGI program,

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so basically what we want to do or what we are asking to commission is to come up with a sustainable

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long-term funding for free software, which should not only focus on research, and therefore we had

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the idea to move it to the digital euro program. However, I'm also fine if they come up with a

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own completely new budget, but since it is very difficult to come up with completely new

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things, it's better to shift things into existing ones, and that's why we are asking for a reform

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of the digital euro program, and part of this reform should be that we introduce a sustainable

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long-term fund with dedicated oversight and overview for SMEs in Europe, for micro-ender prices,

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for communities, for charities, and individual developers for foundations might so, for all these

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projects that have been financed in the NGI before to move this into the digital euro program,

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but it's better oversight. What did we do then, like how did we take action basically?

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Yeah, and for this, the European Commission from time to time runs public consultations,

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so whenever they evaluate or whenever they come up with something new, they ask the public on their

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takes, and here also just slightly after the summer break, the European Commission opened a

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consultation on the digital euro program, and there we took part in this consultation, and there

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we asked for this sustainable long-term fund. We said this fund need to be open to individual

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developers for communities, as I just said, and basically all of these demands are just

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outline. Basically, these kinds of demands we moved into this consultation and asked the

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Commission to act accordingly, and also we asked our community to do the same, so we published

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our answers to this consultation, we were outlining what we see, how our arguments

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could be reused, and we basically asked our community to take part in this consultation,

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and to follow these arguments and to basically ask for this sustainable long-term funding,

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and normally these consultations attract some experts, some lobbyists, maybe from time to time,

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individuals, but normally only a few people take part, but after the consultation was closed,

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we have seen nearly 800 people took part in this consultation. This is completely outstanding.

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To give you some context, maybe just a few weeks ago, there was a consultation on AI and the

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European Commission released the press release that 400 people took part, and this is really outstanding,

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and I can tell you there was no press release on this consultation where 800, or nearly 800 people

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took part, but you can see, right, so we really managed it to shed a lot of light on this consultation,

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many people took part, and just of today, as we are talking, and so basically today is the

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13th of November, the results have been published of the consultation, and it is pretty clear

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that people were following basically our call and asked for this sustainable long-term funding,

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and what is even more important, they did this on an individual basis, not by copy and paste,

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what we did, but they came up with their own words, and this underlines not only the knowledge

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in our community, and also the, yeah, basically the courage to take part in such a consultation,

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which is not very common, and also to come up with their own words, since they see the problem,

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and then they can describe the problem pretty well in their own words. We have a very, very good

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answer to the consultation now, and the commission released a report where they clearly said that

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this is a calling demand from people taking part in this consultation. They also see that,

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and they also write it, that we, yeah, did the call on this, and they refer to our

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block posts, news items, where we were writing about it, but also other than that, it clearly shows

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that people gave individual answers that they took a lot of time and efforts to take part in this

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consultation, to tell the combination, we want this sustainable long-term fund, and I think that's

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already a success in itself, so I want to use this opportunity here to thank everyone who took

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part in this consultation. This is super, super helpful, because with this, we can create a lot

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of pressure towards the commission, but also do you remember states to really come up with such a fund?

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This is a short break for our own cause. Thank you for listening to the Software Freedom podcast.

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Working for Software Freedom and producing podcasts costs money. Please consider supporting us

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with a donation on the fsfe.org slash donate and then the show notes.

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So this is now being discussed, or what are the next steps here?

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Yeah, I mean, I've definitely, and I also would like to say thank you to everybody who participated.

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This is like, I'm sorry, I just quickly passed over it as he,

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no, but it is truly remarkable, and it is amazing that people actually care about free software

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that much that they sit down, write their arguments down, and think about it, so I'm,

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I also find this very touching that it's not something that people

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take lightly, but they want to support. Indeed. And it definitely helps in the political process.

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So it helps us to create pressure to always bring up this argument, since we can always say,

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look back in this consultation, there was a clear demand by the public to do this. And also,

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you have acknowledged this in your own analysis afterwards. So I mean, what's happening now is

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in the second, probably nothing other than we analyze this, we discuss this, and it's definitely

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a long-term game, right? So it's not an activity. You can a bit compare it to our public money,

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public code campaign, right? So where we asked public administrations to invest

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into free software, rather than proprietary software, when they do procurement processes.

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Also, this is a long-term game, which goes step-by-step where we see progress, not every day,

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but we see progress, right? And also in the last years, we have seen progress, and that's

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the same as the funding. So it won't be that we get from one day to another,

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is we billions of euros to invest in our core infrastructure, but it will rather be a step-by-step

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thing. And for these steps, this consultation helps, and the consultation is definitely a major step.

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In this, since we can directly go to the commission, we can directly demand from them. Also,

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members of the European Parliament can table with questions of this, thereby the reports about it,

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media, and by that, we publicly need to discuss, right? So we need to rise the political costs,

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so to say, so that this is a really a topic that they need to take care of. And this worked out,

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and this will continue to work out if we continue to work that closely together with our community.

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I'm really looking forward to this. There will be a few more moments in the next months and years

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where we will definitely reach out to us, to our community, again, to help us here, since this

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public pressure really, really helps. And in particular, in the European Union, you can debate

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with the people you can discuss. There are no, we set majorities, they are flexible, you can fight

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for majorities, and the more we bring in these good arguments, but also showcase that it's not only

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FSE, FSE arguments, but these are arguments for the European Union, right? The more likely it is

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that we get sufficient funds that are so heavily needed. So just to give also some context here,

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I heard at some point that the European Union and the parliament and all the institutions,

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this is a very democratic process, actually, so that people can interact and can

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also make their voices hear it. What would you say to this? So is this something that is happening

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here as well? It definitely helps. I mean, we are not the ones who can automatically vote,

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but we are the ones who can create pressures on these votes, and we can shed light on these votes.

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And for my experience, I can tell you the more light on that debate is and the more

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a topic is publicly debated, the more likely it is that also decision makers that do not really

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work in this space, listen to the argument and make up their own mind. And this is what I mean with

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fighting for a majority. So there is nothing like what we know, an example from the member states,

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right? So that you have basically governments deciding also more or less what to do next,

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since they have their maturity. In the European parliament, there is no such clear maturity.

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It's moving in every vote. And by thus, you can fight for such a majority to introduce such funds.

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So it definitely helps if they see citizens care because they are their voters. And also other

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than that, we also have seen that there are many other entities, basically, also the market

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is asking for such a fund. So it would not only help citizens or consumer. It will also help

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the European market and also European administrations and governments to come up with tools

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where they have control over their technology. And as said, we are discussing digital solidarity.

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And I really do believe that digital solidarity is not achievable without free software. So if

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you don't have the four freedoms to you study, share and improve for your software,

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you won't have digital sovereignty. And if you can make this point, and this is also on point,

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an documentary race in the consultation and connected even better, the better people understand.

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And from the last years and last debates, I can tell you the knowledge around free software

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is rising every day in the European Union. And these debates also help to rise this

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common level of understanding around free software. And that's also in itself very, very good.

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So we have a public debate. We can bring out our arguments. They are understood. Also we have

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from the Commission a study saying that these funds are needed. And also we have a new

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empowerment already some allies and tabling amendments in this direction. So it is a bit like

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an encrowing thing. So I wouldn't say we have this majority today. But since we started in summer,

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where there was basically nothing, what we achieved in the last months, I have to say this is

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really, really impressive. And this is only doable thanks to the help of our community. So without

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the participation of our community, we couldn't debate with this. So we couldn't be so confident in

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all debates. How we are today and this definitely helps us to give us power in the debate,

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to give us status in the debate. All right. Thank you so much for the update. And yeah,

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taking us through this whole process and talking to me about what has happened, what will happen,

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or what might happen in the future. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to hear more news about this

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in the coming months. Maybe. But before we close, if you want to stay updated on this,

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feel free to join our mailing lists, but also sign our public money public code campaign.

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By last, you will also get updates and you will be around those if you like. If you click the

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tick box that gets emails and information about it, when we are running such campaigns and when

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we are asking our volunteers to step in and also port us here to help us. Because as said, there

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will be more of these moments, there might be more consultations, there might be more moments when

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we need to call the you can parliament to vote in a specific direction. And where we asked our

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community to help us with a mail or a phone call or whatever. So and if you want to be around those

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that get emails and get information on this, how you can help us please sign up at our mailing list,

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go to fsfe.org, sign up for the newsletter and then you will be informed about this. I think

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this will be super helpful if you want to join the activities. And as said, it's a long term game,

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so there will be definitely more news on this and then not only in the next months, but I guess

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three years. Also linked in the show notes, the newsletter. Yes. So with this, I would say thank you

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very much, Alex. Thank you very much for taking us through this process. And yeah, as always,

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it was a pleasure to have you here. Thanks for having me. It was fun. I hope it's not too much,

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not too complex and still interesting. This is true. And also I think it's a very complex topic.

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So I think this really helps to understand and to go through this process again and to understand

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all the interactings and after different programs actually there. So it was a pleasure for me as well.

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With this, I would say goodbye and thank you very much. Thank you. Bye bye.

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This was the Software Freedom Podcast. If you liked this episode, please recommend it to

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your friends and rated. Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance

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of Software Freedom. This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe.

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We are a charity that works on promoting Software Freedom. And if you like our work, please

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consider supporting us with our donation. You find more information on the fsfe.org slash donate.

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We depend on your support. Bye.

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That was my question. I wanted to ask you all. I wanted to ask you how can others help to secure

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continuous funding of Free Software. But that was a great idea. I'll see you in the next one.


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