Transcript of SFP#28: Policy and EU: FOSDEM DevRooms with Alexander Sander
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WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:06.560 Before we start with the podcast, we would like to say thank you to all of you who support the FSFe's work of money. 00:07.680 --> 00:11.680 Working for software freedom and producing podcasts costs money. 00:12.720 --> 00:18.920 Please consider supporting us with our nation and the FSFE.org slash donate and in the show notes. 00:20.000 --> 00:22.280 Okay, let's get started. 00:22.280 --> 00:34.280 Let's create a community around this topic. I think the deaf room is definitely a good starting point for this. 00:34.280 --> 00:58.280 Welcome to the software freedom podcast. This podcast is presented to you by the free software foundation Europe. We are a charity that empowers users to take control of technology. 00:58.840 --> 01:17.280 I'm Bonnie Merring and today I'm here once again with Alexander Sander. Hi Alex. Hello. Alex is our senior policy consultant for the FSFE and in his work, he monitors the current happenings in the European Union and pushes for the recognition of free software there. 01:18.240 --> 01:41.280 In this episode, Alex and I talk about the upcoming Boston. This year, we also have two deaf rooms there that the FSFE is part of the organizing team. So this year, Alex at Boston, we have the legal and policy issues, deaf room and the funding, the first ecosystem, deaf room. 01:41.280 --> 01:49.280 I would say we talk about them separately and we start with the legal and policy issues, deaf room. Is that all right for you? 01:49.280 --> 01:57.280 All right. Yeah, it's also the first day. So it's happening on the Saturday. So we can go through this from the logic. 01:57.280 --> 02:07.280 Awesome. So I think this is the second or the third time that we have been organizing this room, correct? 02:07.280 --> 02:22.280 Well, I mean, in this team, we started doing Corona with the legal and policy deaf room, but in person, I think it's now the third time that we meet in person in process again for this deaf room with this organizing team. 02:22.280 --> 02:41.280 But in general, there's a long history of policy and legal topics at foster and yeah, so it's not just that we talk about this topic since a couple of years, but yeah, we co-host this in person for the third time, I think in process. 02:41.280 --> 02:46.280 Nice. So who are our co-hosts? Can you tell me a bit about them? 02:46.280 --> 02:56.280 Yeah, sure. I mean, so next to us, we have, I think, the well-known Bradley Kuhn and Kevin Centler from the Software Freedom Conservancy. 02:56.280 --> 03:14.280 We have Richard Fontana from Redhead with us. We have Tom Marble with his informatic cooperation and yeah, from our side, its materials at me, who came up with the idea, run through the call for papers, which we finalized last year. 03:14.280 --> 03:30.280 Now we also published our agenda and now people can learn about the topics that we address in the agenda, but also here in the podcast, where we can go with more details, what will be discussed in the upcoming, yeah, legal and policy deaf room at the first time. 03:30.280 --> 03:42.280 So what is this year's focus or is there special focus in the legal and policy deaf room or is it just very broad and open for anything connected to policy? 03:42.280 --> 04:02.280 I mean, we have a quite mixed program as the name of the deaf room already points to we have legal and policy topics and we have a look at this property comes through the consolation of US and EU organizations working on this that we also look at both sides of the Atlantic. 04:02.280 --> 04:30.280 And we have some very hands on topics, maybe you already know about that there is a reform related to e invoices, so B2B business to business invoices have to be an electronic format and we will discuss implications for the free software ecosystem, but we will also discuss copyright questions and we also have an AI debate, a panel debate about AI topics. 04:30.280 --> 04:40.280 There also is a hands on talk from the European data protection supervisory office on a website compliance tool related to data protection. 04:40.280 --> 04:46.280 So we handle quite a lot of topics and there are also two very interesting topics. 04:46.280 --> 04:58.280 One is on the legal case, which the commission is under doing at the moment, where it's about the interoperability in this case of app stores, the FSF E plays an important role in this court case. 04:58.280 --> 05:06.280 So we are around here and our colleague look has last time will have a fireside chat with representatives from the European Commission on that. 05:06.280 --> 05:12.280 So you see we also invited the institutions here to have conversations with us. 05:12.280 --> 05:35.280 And ultimately we will also talk about the cyber resilience act, a topic which keeps the whole free software community quite discussing, let's say it like this and since we are here in the implementation phase, some question arise for not only us, but in particular for micro enterprises, small and medium enterprises. 05:35.280 --> 05:55.280 This is individual, the weather of foundations, charities and we want to address, for example, these kinds of questions in a Q&A session, very actively want to involve participants of the legal and policy death room, so that we can have fruitful discussions, also we see audience and not only this panelist or speakers. 05:55.280 --> 06:20.280 So we really want to have discussions in this room, this worked out very well in the last years, so this is part of our concept that we want to not only have speakers talking to us, but that we also want to include the audience and I think from the format be picked, but also from the topics we pick, I'm pretty sure it will be a very, very interesting Saturday, this those topics that we bring up on the agenda. 06:20.280 --> 06:44.280 It sounds like it, it especially sounds like it's not only for business people, but it's also for people interested in policy or people who are absolutely new to the topic and to want to learn more about the current happenings in the European Union, because a lot of those topics that are addressed are based on some EU policy, if that's correct from my understanding. 06:44.280 --> 07:00.280 Yeah, absolutely, I mean, there are definitely regulations or rules, so to say coming out from Europe that have an impact worldwide, the cyber resilience act is definitely such an example, which is not only discussed in Europe, but also worldwide. 07:00.280 --> 07:15.280 And in this regard, we will also have a sort of discussion, which is transatlantic, so the Q&A session will be, for example, hosted by Bradley and me, so we have a US perspective, we have a you perspective, but also on the other topics. 07:15.280 --> 07:44.280 Software is global, and so our discussions are global, I mean, for sure, we always have some sort of specific views on the EU and in the US in this deaf room, but debates are global, and this is also reflected in the speakers we found and the topics we found so that you can see, we have a very diverse view on these topics and you won't find any monotomatic discussions, so to say, but rather, 07:44.280 --> 07:50.280 virtual insights from both sides of the Atlantic and even globally. 07:50.280 --> 08:04.280 Alright, so can you tell me, like, now you mentioned what's happening there, what the topics might be, but if I'm more of a technical perspective, or if I have a technical background, let's say it like this. 08:04.280 --> 08:08.280 Would this still be an interesting room? 08:08.280 --> 08:21.280 I mean, definitely it's also interesting for technical people or developers, since we address pretty hands-on questions that are also important for developers themselves. 08:21.280 --> 08:32.280 Let's, I mean, directly when we talk about cyber resilience, many developers have those questions, and that's why we came up with this Q&A session. 08:32.280 --> 08:52.280 So that, yeah, all, hopefully, many questions can be resolved in answer during this session, so it's definitely not only for decision makers or lobbyists or consultants or even lawyers, it's also for technical people. 08:52.280 --> 09:00.280 In this regard, we have also talks about S-bombs or the software bill of materials for something which developers have to work with. 09:00.280 --> 09:14.280 We have copyright questions on license questions, so there are many hands-on questions that are also interesting for technical people and also, I mean, beside these specific topics, I think all the other topics as well. 09:14.280 --> 09:19.280 It's quite interesting for technical people or people with technical backgrounds. 09:19.280 --> 09:43.280 There is a lot of impact for their daily work or their daily lives, and that's why I think it's worse to look at these topics as well and to drop by at the deaf room basically at any time and listen to what we bring up for the agenda since it is quite interesting, and yeah, I think it's interesting for everyone, I'd say. 09:44.280 --> 09:48.280 Okay. All right. 09:48.280 --> 09:52.280 Is there something that you would like to highlight for this room? 09:52.280 --> 10:02.280 I mean, drop by, take part in the discussions. I think that's the most important part and check out the agenda and drop by whenever you have time. 10:02.280 --> 10:18.280 Also, like, between the talks, so we don't have that many breaks since we wanted to fill the agenda with content, but there's also normally quite often the situation that people after a talk go just in front of the room and continue their conversations there. 10:18.280 --> 10:34.280 So it's also very good for networking and to, yeah, basically meet not only FSFE people or organizer people and speakers, but it's a quite intense day with also some background chats happening around this deaf room. 10:34.280 --> 10:43.280 So it's definitely worse to drop by also to see some people and network and learn about some new topics. 10:44.280 --> 10:53.280 This sounds like a really cozy, but really intense meet-up of all people interested in EU policy. 10:53.280 --> 11:11.280 Yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely and I can tell you so I'm always quite happy when the day is done to be honest, but I always had very, very many new insights that helped me to channel through the through the year until the next of them sort of said. 11:11.280 --> 11:16.280 It's definitely so you will be out of energy afterwards, but it's worse. 11:16.280 --> 11:18.280 All right, that sounds like a room to visit. 11:18.280 --> 11:19.280 Absolutely. 11:19.280 --> 11:29.280 And then we have the second deaf room as well that we also want to cover in this podcast episode. That's why I'm now moving forward to this one. 11:29.280 --> 11:33.280 The funding the first ecosystem deaf room. 11:33.280 --> 11:39.280 So this one is happening on Sunday, luckily for you there two different days. 11:39.280 --> 11:41.280 You can you can visit both. 11:41.280 --> 11:42.280 Yeah, that's good. 11:42.280 --> 11:44.280 Yes. 11:44.280 --> 11:52.280 All right, so this is the first time that we are doing something like this or is the has this happened before and I just missed it. 11:52.280 --> 11:56.280 No, that's deaf room, which we are co-hosting for the very first time. 11:56.280 --> 12:07.280 The discussion around funding was something we drove from basically mid last year since the NGI funding was cut. 12:07.280 --> 12:10.280 We also discussed this already in the podcast episode. 12:10.280 --> 12:15.280 I think two episodes before and you can also learn about this topic on our website. 12:15.280 --> 12:18.280 But there are also other funding questions. 12:18.280 --> 12:25.280 Yeah, discussing how to support free software and particular security when it comes to core infrastructure for governments, for example. 12:25.280 --> 12:28.280 It seems quite a while. 12:28.280 --> 12:33.280 There are solutions everywhere in the world best practices everywhere everywhere in the world. 12:33.280 --> 12:45.280 And that's why we came to the conclusion that we want to have this sort of like packed in a dedicated deaf room where we can shed light on the topic, but also on, for example, best practices learning. 12:45.280 --> 13:00.280 But also failed from the last years and that we can have one place where we can discuss several funding mechanisms ideas already existing best practices and so on. 13:00.280 --> 13:02.280 And that's why we came up as the staff room. 13:02.280 --> 13:06.280 We are co-organizing this with the net foundation. 13:06.280 --> 13:11.280 So the ones that are in charge of the NGI fund, so to say. 13:11.280 --> 13:20.280 Also together with the Linux foundation and we have some also practical experience here with the prototype fund and the sort of tech fund, for example. 13:20.280 --> 13:29.280 So it's quite a large group of people organizing this, but also it's organized from people that already have experience in this topic. 13:29.280 --> 13:35.280 And that's why we came to the conclusion to come up with this deaf room for the first time. 13:35.280 --> 13:40.280 Yeah, we are very curious to see if people are interested in this topic. 13:40.280 --> 13:51.280 How the debates are going and so since this is the first time we are really much looking also for feedback here afterwards, but first of all, it's important that many people know about this new deaf room. 13:51.280 --> 13:54.280 So that's why it's good that we are talking about this today. 13:54.280 --> 14:02.280 And even more important that people drop by and take part since again, this is comparable to the legal and deaf policy deaf room. 14:02.280 --> 14:15.280 The discussions there, we want insights there, so it's not that much about that we have people only talking to us, but that we can have more insights in what's going on at the moment there and that we can also learn from participants. 14:17.280 --> 14:20.280 This is a short break for our own cause. 14:20.280 --> 14:28.280 Thank you for listening to the software freedom podcast working for software freedom and producing podcasts costs money. 14:28.280 --> 14:35.280 Please consider supporting us with a donation on the FSFE.org slash donate and in the show notes. 14:38.280 --> 14:44.280 Can you give me a bit of an overview of what will be happening on Sunday in the funding deaf room? 14:44.280 --> 14:45.280 Yeah, absolutely. 14:45.280 --> 14:57.280 I mean, one of the main questions which drives us nuts if you want when it comes to funding is what to fund with how much and how do we identify those? 14:58.280 --> 15:05.280 Who to fund? So these are some very basic questions, but they are not that easy to answer. 15:05.280 --> 15:14.280 And next to this, we have some other W questions. So it's like where should the funds come from who should put money into this? 15:14.280 --> 15:27.280 When do we need this funding? What kind of funding do we want? Do we have venture capital in this or is there even a moment where we want to say we don't take a specific funding for. 15:27.280 --> 15:31.280 Several reasons from some players from the market. 15:31.280 --> 15:43.280 So there are also some dilemma that arise on the funding questions that are already on stake since we are a set discussing these funding topics already for quite a while. 15:43.280 --> 16:01.280 And we ask all of these questions in different talks there. We will learn about perspective experience. So we also get some insights in already existing structures, ideas, workflows and there are pain points. 16:01.280 --> 16:07.280 So we want to be also very honest to existing things and discuss how we can improve this. 16:07.280 --> 16:19.280 And ultimately we will also have very concrete proposals. So for example, how do you pin union can step or should step in and how for the funding look like for the software. 16:19.280 --> 16:31.280 In general, in the European Union, for example, we have this big issue. We already discussed this that there is like no place for a long term, secure sustainable funding for free software. 16:31.280 --> 16:40.280 A good place for such a funding could be the digital Europe program, which will be reformed in the next year, so to say. 16:40.280 --> 16:56.280 And here, so we want to lobby for a dedicated fund for this software, but it is important that this fund can also be or will address also communities, small projects that we rely on. 16:56.280 --> 17:07.280 These communities don't have a legal form, which is sufficient to apply for funds from the European Union. So these funding schemes from Europe often quite difficult. 17:07.280 --> 17:21.280 So there's a lot of paperwork involved also, you need to be a specific entity, you need to have a certain size, you need to collaborate with different players and this very difficult to fulfill for free software projects. 17:21.280 --> 17:35.280 And here we need to make sure that there is a way that this funding goes to them also very easily, so it's not just about if there's funding, but also who gets the funding and how can we make sure this is aligned with European rules. 17:35.280 --> 17:49.280 So we have also some very concrete hands on policy related topics, which we discussed and very are trying to look for ways how we can make this happen and how we can collaborate here with the European Union. 17:49.280 --> 18:11.280 So in this regard, so again, we have pretty hands on talks on how can you as a project to fund raising, for example, where should you look at, but also on the other hand up to the level that we do advocating work around the European Union to get funds for co infrastructure for governments, for example. 18:11.280 --> 18:20.280 Change is very, very large. Let's see how the debate works so and yeah, what you can get all of this. 18:20.280 --> 18:34.280 This sounds like a funding ABC for all people who are either interested in the general topic of funding and how funding should look like, but also for people who are looking for funding and who need some hands on tips. 18:34.280 --> 18:49.280 Okay, so it's a variety of topics and depending on your position or what you are looking for, there's definitely at least one talk for you that should be of interest, but I think there are even rather more. 18:49.280 --> 18:56.280 And yeah, if you are working in the space of funding, then definitely I'd say the whole deaf room is a experience you should work with. 18:56.280 --> 19:09.280 Alright, has it been easy to find people for this deaf room to present because I can't imagine that it's quite a topic that people work on, but it's not that much talked about. 19:09.280 --> 19:19.280 It's something that happens in the organizations, but it's not something that a lot of people say like this is the first time happening at possum with our deaf room. 19:19.280 --> 19:27.280 Yeah, so it definitely needs more visibility, but yeah, I can imagine it's quite hard. 19:27.280 --> 19:38.280 Yeah, to be honest, I mean, in the last years, we often had also funding related topics in the legal and policy deaf room, since we have seen that this is quite of importance. 19:38.280 --> 19:47.280 And also, when I started to work on the NGI funding topic in summer, I recognized that there's quite some huge interest in this. 19:47.280 --> 20:01.280 You remember the consultation where we asked our community and supporters to take part in where more than 700 people took part, which is 700, but more than normally take part in such a conversation. 20:02.280 --> 20:08.280 There is quite some interest and I was also quite surprised how huge the interest is. 20:08.280 --> 20:22.280 And that's why I also gave a talk at the latest FSScon in Bolzano on the topic of funding and the route was quite packed and people were quite interested also in the chats afterwards after my talk. 20:22.280 --> 20:49.280 I have seen that there is quite some interest and yeah, so I was surprised to be honest that there is such an interest, but obviously people need this and that's why I hope this funding deaf room is fulfilling the needs and that the room is packed and that we have the right topics on the agenda to further develop our arguments to come up with some more concrete and clear demands. 20:49.280 --> 20:56.280 And that we can work together on a sustainable secure long term funding. 20:56.280 --> 20:59.280 The sounds like a really good deaf room to visit on Sunday. 20:59.280 --> 21:18.280 Absolutely, so if you don't have anything on your agenda yet, this other day is full with the legal and policy deaf room and the Sunday you should drop by at the funding deaf room and then you will have a very, very good overview of the most pressuring topics we have globally when it comes to free software ecosystem. 21:19.280 --> 21:24.280 I can imagine is that something you would like to highlight for the funding the post ecosystem room. 21:24.280 --> 21:37.280 I know it's the first time that we're doing this, so there's hardly any experience, but as you already pointed out, it's a topic that a lot of people are interested and especially a lot of people with different backgrounds are interested in. 21:37.280 --> 21:47.280 So I think this must be a really exciting room to meet other people and to, yeah, network and get new ideas for funding. 21:48.280 --> 21:50.280 But is there something you would like to highlight? 21:50.280 --> 22:02.280 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for me, it's also I'm very curious to see who will be the participants if they bring in some sort of ideas that we don't have on the radar. 22:02.280 --> 22:10.280 And if there is, yeah, which part of the community we don't see at the moment. 22:10.280 --> 22:34.280 And if they show up in how we can network with them. So I definitely think that beside the topics we discuss in the deaf room itself, it will be super interesting to see who else is coming, who else is maybe already working on this and how can we collaborate here and how we can share our expertise and all workflows to get closer to closing the funding gap. 22:34.280 --> 22:47.280 And also to believe that companies play a very important role here. So in particular, those who benefit from free software, but don't contribute with back. Also, there are many ideas how we can change this. 22:47.280 --> 23:03.280 But, yeah, many ideas also mean there is not a clear way at the moment and maybe as said, we can we can use a bit with the participants brains and come a step closer to a more concrete demand, which can be in. 23:03.280 --> 23:15.280 Share demand that we can collaborate here and work as free software ecosystem together towards these needed sustainable secure funding for free software. 23:15.280 --> 23:24.280 That would be a perfect outcome to see also who else is working on this from, yeah, persons we don't have on the radar for now. 23:24.280 --> 23:42.280 So drop by, leave your card, even if you don't have that much time. It's definitely worse to come at least for a couple of minutes there in the room, try to network a bit and maybe, yeah, you have the time to listen to a talk, which is of interest for you. 23:42.280 --> 23:52.280 We've had in the discussion of the death room in the in the side chats afterwards and yeah, let's let's create a community around this topic. 23:52.280 --> 24:01.280 I think the death room is definitely a good starting point for this to gather people that that are interested in in the topic. 24:01.280 --> 24:11.280 I will link to both death rooms in the show notes so that you, our listeners can take a look at the very interesting topics happening in both of the rooms. 24:11.280 --> 24:19.280 Alex, now for my last question about Boston, is there something that you are looking forward to at Boston? 24:19.280 --> 24:30.280 I mean, definitely I'm, yeah, will be very busy with these two death rooms, but beside of that, I hopefully find some time to drop by at the FSFE booth as well. 24:30.280 --> 24:44.280 So we will be there very prominent again, also with a lot of volunteers helping us to run the booths. So I'm also happy to meet FSFE supporters, friends and also we will have some side events in the evening. 24:44.280 --> 24:58.280 And there I'm really much looking forward to have a beer with this our community to chat a bit about what's going on in their lives, what's going on in the countries. 24:58.280 --> 25:10.280 We have many supporters from from different countries coming to force them and often it's this meeting in the year where we can also meet in person and chat a bit. 25:10.280 --> 25:25.280 And this is also something where I'm really much looking forward, yeah, meeting our supporters, meeting our community, chatting with them and having a nice or so social part around for them is also always something I'm looking forward. 25:25.280 --> 25:37.280 I can absolutely second that I always enjoy going to for some and meeting all the people and talking to them and I don't know, I have met so many interesting people there and it's always really fascinating. 25:37.280 --> 25:47.280 I'm going to say in touch afterwards and it's really nice because there's a whole community going to force them and it's like a conference that you have to visit. 25:47.280 --> 25:49.280 Absolutely. 25:49.280 --> 25:53.280 Yeah, for this year's post, I would also like to highlight something. 25:53.280 --> 26:06.280 Apart from our very awesome two deaf rooms and the awesome community going to force them, I would like to highlight that me and my colleague Anna are organizing a breakfast where underrepresented people in the free software movement. 26:06.280 --> 26:20.280 I invited to join us and discuss basically with us how we can lower the barriers for underrepresented people in the free software movement and how we can make the free software movement more inviting. 26:20.280 --> 26:30.280 And yes, we will have a forum for this in the show notes where you can sign up if you would like to join us. 26:30.280 --> 26:37.280 Sadly, the breakfast will have to be self-paid just to already make you aware of this. 26:37.280 --> 26:59.280 And yeah, that's what I'm really looking forward to because I think at SFScon, we had something like this. Sadly, I couldn't go to SFScon and it was quite a lot of discussions happening there and it was awesome to see how many underrepresented people in the free software movement are coming together and how much power isn't this room then. 26:59.280 --> 27:10.280 And because it feels like a lot of empowerment and it's a great opportunity to network with others and yet to basically meet other like-minded people. 27:10.280 --> 27:16.280 So this is what I'm really looking forward to apart from our two deaf rooms, which I think will be awesome. 27:16.280 --> 27:22.280 Okay, and with this, talk about my topic as well. 27:22.280 --> 27:32.280 I will let you go, Alex. I will say thank you so much for your time and it was a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much for sharing the insights into two deaf rooms. 27:32.280 --> 27:36.280 And yeah, I'm looking forward to visit you there. 27:36.280 --> 27:45.280 Thank you. And I'm also looking forward to meet many listeners to this podcast in our deaf rooms. Thanks for having me. 27:45.280 --> 27:51.280 This was the Software Freedom Podcast. If you liked this episode, please recommend it to your friends and rate it. 27:51.280 --> 27:59.280 Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance of Software Freedom and its impact on our digital lives. 27:59.280 --> 28:07.280 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. We are a charity that works on promoting Software Freedom. 28:07.280 --> 28:12.280 If you liked our work, please consider supporting us with a donation. 28:12.280 --> 28:17.280 You find more information on the fsfe.org slash donate. 28:17.280 --> 28:20.280 Thank you very much. Bye-bye. Until next time.