Transcript of SFP#32: Policy and EU: Router Freedom in the EU
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SFP#032: Policy and EU: Router Freedom in the EU
1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Before we start after the podcast, we would like to say thank you to all of you who support the FSF East Work of Money. 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:12,000 Working for software freedom and producing podcasts costs money. 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:20,000 Please consider supporting us with a donation on the FSFE.org slash donate and in the show notes. 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,000 Alright, let's get started. 5 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,000 I wanted to connect to the internet via Bluetooth. Nobody does this anymore, but if I want I can do this. 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,000 I want to use the Wi-Fi to connect to a public network. I can do this. 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:42,000 I wanted to share my internet using my phone as a hotspot using my 4G contract or 5G contract, whatever. 8 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:50,000 I can do this, but this is not for granted. This is an outcome of civil society engagement asking for more freedom. 9 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:09,000 Welcome to the software freedom podcast. This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 10 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:14,000 We are a charity that empowers users to take control of technology. 11 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:28,000 I'm Bonnie Merring and today I'm here with Alex Anderson. Alex is the senior policy consultant of the FSFE and in his work he monitors the current happenings in the European Union and also pushes for the recognition of 12 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:44,000 free software. And I'm also here with Lucas. Lucas is a senior program manager and in his work for the FSFE he is involved in the legal area and actively advocates for device neutrality promoting 13 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:54,000 free software in the enforcement of the digital markets act and also for router freedom. Lucas does a quite a lot of things on your plate, but we will come to this in a second. 14 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:14,000 Lucas and Alex are also both involved in the next generation internet program by the EU. And while Lucas helps the single projects with legal issues and legal issues stay in counter, Alex is advocating for a secure and long term funding of the EU program. 15 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:24,000 And for this we recommend to listen to our previous episode 26 policy and the EU, the need of long term funding and the NGI case. 16 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:30,000 Thank you so much Alex and Lucas for making the time to talk to me here today about router freedom. 17 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:37,000 I'm very happy that both of you joined us here on our second try of this recording of the podcast. 18 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:42,000 And I'm really happy to learn more about router freedom. 19 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,000 It's a great pleasure. Thanks a lot. Thank you for having us. 20 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:55,000 Lucas, before we dive into the latest development of router freedom, could you briefly explain what router freedom is and give us a summary of it? 21 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,000 I know you have a really funny story here. 22 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Yeah, sure. So router freedom is the right that everyone has to connect their routers and modes directly to the network in order to get internet access. 23 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:20,000 And although this sounds very clear or the sounds very simple. 24 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:29,000 The type of regulations that we have on our days helps us a little bit, but it's still complex in order to get this right in the real life. 25 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:35,000 In order to understand this, I think we have to go a little bit back in the history. 26 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:42,000 And this is perhaps the history that you just mentioned, it started before the internet age. 27 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:47,000 So all this struggle that we are having right now, it's old enough. 28 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:57,000 And it's still in the time where the landlines are on the telephone so the story comes in the United States in the 50s. 29 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:06,000 The telecom provider at the time there, AT&T, it was a near monopoly on the entire North America. 30 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:19,000 And that time, since they were virtually integrated, they also provided the telephones and also the terminal equipment. 31 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:25,000 This is the the correct term in telecommunications right when we are talking about telephones or modens. 32 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:30,000 Basically, this is the type of equipment that we use in order to connect to the network. 33 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,000 The terminal equipment, right. 34 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:41,000 And at the time there was telephones and there were 30 party telephones providing differently from AT&T. 35 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:55,000 And there was a provider that it was private oriented and they installed an equipment on the phone in order to provide a little bit more privacy for you to talk on the phone. 36 00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:00,000 So other people would not see you talking, it was called a hush phone. 37 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:08,000 And then they were already establishing their market for 20 years and people were using this device on AT&T phones. 38 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:28,000 But the story says that once a lawyer from that AT&T saw this hush phone on a story window and then convinced AT&T to sue hush phone because they said that anything that would be attached to the telephone at the time could damage AT&T network. 39 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:42,000 It was in 1956 and until today we are seeing network operators saying that anything different that they provide is still condemned that the network although that's not the case. 40 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:51,000 And therefore there always has been a pushback against router freedom so people could install their or use their own routers on on the internet. 41 00:05:51,000 --> 00:06:13,000 However, as what happened with the hush of phone case at that time in the United States there was several decisions in favor of hush of phone and then there was a consolidation of the right to use terminal equipment provided by 30 parties on on landline. 42 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:23,000 And I hope that today we can dive a little bit more what now happens in Europe on the internet age. 43 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:37,000 As soon as we had it in since 2015 they opened internet regulation that established in that neutrality in Europe and established at least on a theoretical level router freedom in the continent. 44 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:53,000 Now you've entered quite a lot of things already but before we dive into the certain act and all the history I would like to point out that I find it so fascinating that this goes back to such a long time and actually also involves telephones. 45 00:06:53,000 --> 00:07:11,000 And yeah I just find this very very amazing how long this right has been defended but also how long it has been attacked I think Alex can also give you give us a bit of better insight here because I think Alex you have been involved here quite a long time as well right. 46 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:17,000 Yeah that's true I mean not not from back in the 50s but. 47 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,000 Yeah I'm sorry. 48 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:38,000 I'm not that old but no I mean since we want to talk about the case in Germany as as one of the examples today I can tell you that we already back in 2013 started to work on this the free software foundation Europe started to work on this back in the days but also me personally. 49 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:47,000 While I was working for another organization called the catalytic research back in the days where we also partnered with the free software foundation Europe and other organizations. 50 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:55,000 And trying to bring in the principle of router freedom in the new coalition it was back in the days the. 51 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:05,000 The big coalition of social democrats and conservatives and they are back in 2013 so like yeah 12 years ago. 52 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:14,000 We we we celebrate that that decision make us understood the principle the principle that look as we've heard from the 50s. 53 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:21,000 That this should be transferred to the internet as well and that routers to be choose freely by consumers. 54 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:31,000 And I've checked on press releases and statements I was giving back in the days and I was yeah really optimistic to see this change coming but yeah it took us another. 55 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:40,000 Ten or more than ten years I think about I think look as made a research here was close to the birthday to this decision. 56 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:53,000 That we then finally we got router freedom in Germany and that I think underlines how important it is to come up is like long term resources to fight these kind of fights so even if you have. 57 00:08:53,000 --> 00:09:03,000 Optimistic statement in this case 11 years ago it takes you another 10 years to another decade yeah to come to the final decision that we at least now in Germany. 58 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:21,000 Have the principle of of router freedom introduced and I think look as well also tell us a bit more about this when we look at other member states I mean he referred to the European regulation here that basically we want to have a common European market which brings us router freedom which brings router freedom to consumers. 59 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:43,000 But there are only a few countries where we managed it to get this router freedom in the regulations in the rules it but there are many other member states where it's still shaky or where there are decisions about to be taking that might go in the mother direction and this is first of all far away from a common European market. 60 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:55,000 So it's not like that we then have a common rule set for Europe but that we have like national regulations that differ a lot which makes it not only difficult for consumers but also for the market in general. 61 00:09:55,000 --> 00:10:09,000 And also it shows that this fight is still ongoing and that's yeah tell cooperators do not give up and try to protect this yeah peace so to say. 62 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:25,000 By heart and we also know that in particular telcos are one of our worst opponents one could say and it's not an easy fight in particular since we also talk to market authorities that are normally not that. 63 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:48,000 And super society friendly they are more market oriented and in Germany it was for example the Bundesnet are going to earn they have a track record of normally deciding with telcos and not against them so in this regard it's it's absolutely major win but also only a step and I think also look as can tell us more about in particular when we look at Europe in general. 64 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:58,000 I'm also quite sure that look as can give us a good overview here and the definite the picture of it just to make sure. 65 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:12,000 Could one of you also mention the acts act for sorry from the European Union that are involved here and router freedom and what's there and because we're already here that device neutrality is also touched here. 66 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:20,000 Yeah and I just want to have all the basics outlines that we can then dive into the German case because this is quite an amazing story. 67 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:45,000 Yeah I just wanted to to support Alex Sopinian on here that such project involves skills from different type of people right so why we need technical people that understand all the protocols the formats and the standards that are using order to make interoperability possible in the network. 68 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:59,000 We need people with legal background that understands how all the technical specifications are translated into law but for sure we need people like Alex himself that understand all the. 69 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:08,000 The the political dynamics on this and what are our political lies and who are hard to to fight and which type of fights we need to pick. 70 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:19,000 So this is the data coalition between organization and people and this show the strength of our community in order to conduct such complex projects for. 71 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:27,000 More than a decade as Alex pointed out so he did support for our work is highly appreciated otherwise. 72 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:35,000 Yeah we have not did the capacity to do this further but to answer your question Bonnie. 73 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:57,000 I think the the major law that gave European consumers the right to use their own routers was the regulation 2015 2021 20 it calls the open internet regulation right and it was the regulation that introduced net neutrality in the EU. 74 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:03,000 Net neutrality it's it's a nice concept which says that. 75 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:21,000 In another term network the value of this network are in all extremities it means like like you are in your home right now I am in your home Alex in your home and and we are using the network in order to exchange knowledge and what is valuable here is the knowledge itself right. 76 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:29,000 So the network should be neutral in relation to the information that it's carry on right and. 77 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:46,000 And so therefore the entire infrastructure from the the telecom operators including the routers and both is there should be neutral in in order to to achieve this neutrality right and therefore in article three of the open internet regulation anyway quote here very. 78 00:13:46,000 --> 00:14:02,000 It tells yeah and I found this article very interesting bear with me and users show have the right to access and distributing formation in content use and provide applications and services and use terminal equipment of their choice. 79 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:15,000 Irrespective of the end users are providers location or the location origin or destination of information content application or service via their internet access service. 80 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:25,000 Of course this is a legal is a little bit complex, but the thing here is that a news terminal equipment of their choices I said this is the the the technical term for. 81 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:32,000 Our type of equipment that we use to connect to the internet not only routers and modern but also smart phones right. 82 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:43,000 And as today we are free to to to go to to a store and buy the the smartphone that we want although there's a huge debate right now because the market for operating systems. 83 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:55,000 Our phone is super concentrated and we have just two providers the major providers of course it's apple and Google but this is another talk for device neutrality future right but. 84 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:10,000 With routers right as Alex said in Germany we consolidated this right in January this year right so the internet is already for 30 years around and only in 2000 in January of 2015. 85 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:25,000 In 2025 in the 2015 25 we consolidated this right in Germany for all types of networks including fiber networks right the first decision on this happen in 2016. 86 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:38,000 The German parliament recognized router freedom for at the time was DSL right and they were a little bit vague in relation to other type or other topologies. 87 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:48,000 In relation to the network however we were of the always the position that the decision of the European the the German parliament at the time. 88 00:15:48,000 --> 00:16:00,000 Concern all types of networks but fiber operators in 2022 they they started a procedure in Germany. 89 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:14,000 In 2016 we would not concern fiber and they need an exception for fiber and but we are happy that. 90 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:25,000 A able to take part on this procedure and and boom does not second to decide it against it but yeah these are the basic and as Alex said. 91 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:38,000 The market is completely fragmented nowadays in the European Union and we have this nice decision in in Germany but this is far from reality in order countries and I will mention just two countries that. 92 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:50,000 Yes, let us let us first talk about German things because we have now pointed this out quite a lot and I'm so interested in this case because I think. 93 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:57,000 I know that different for European countries I would love to move on to them as well and I will not forget about them trust me. 94 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:06,000 But what happened here in Germany so like there was a decision and in 2016 and then the telecom provider said. 95 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:16,000 But fiber is different why was it different and what was their argument and what was the decision that the Bundesnetz are going to finally took. 96 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:25,000 Right, yeah absolutely and and I think Germany was on the the most topical most interesting cases because. 97 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:39,000 The Bundesnetz and the tour went the whole procedure right to analyze this in details for all network topologies including DSL and our fiber so. 98 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:50,000 Okay, let's go back a little bit because in the beginning of 2000 there was this discussion worldwide not not only in Germany but. 99 00:17:50,000 --> 00:18:08,000 In the United States in Latin America and Europe about net neutrality about this concept that I just talk to you right and and this discussion is still ongoing on our days right because telecom operators of course they invest a lot of money in order to build this infrastructure right so. 100 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:35,000 And they of course they want to to protect their investments right and and I think it's a less to make a thing to do right because they have to to war all these holes on the streets in order to to put the cables and they have to to to to build the antennas and they have to buy this huge and very expensive backbone routers and they have to to lay down fiber optic under the ocean of course this is million and billions of dollars in the industry. 101 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:50,000 However, when a democratic mandate understands this for an example as in the European Union European Parliament and and in the in the in the stakeholder discussions concluded that is possible that. 102 00:18:50,000 --> 00:19:03,000 The investments of the telcos are protected but is still we we can have consumer protection and consumer empowerment in order for them to to give the right to use their own routers I think this. 103 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:20,000 It's clear is that the message is clear that the the rights and the interests of end users should be protected and I strike in balance between consumer protection against the investments of the telcos should be found right so this type of. 104 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:33,000 Our arguments and the discussion happened in the beginning of 2000s in 2010 as Alex said there was a lot of discussion here in Germany as well and. 105 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:47,000 Germany was in the discussion a little bit faster than the European Union while the European Union took a broader discussion via the open internet regulation that concerns not only routers but concerns. 106 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:59,000 The commercial practice in general of internet providers Germany was able to to focus on routers right and in 2016 there was a lot. 107 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:18,000 Past and of course Alex can give gave was already some introduction and perhaps he could dive a little bit more into the the political dynamics that was around the toilet at the lot of time but to answer a question the law determined that end users should have. 108 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:29,000 The possibility to connect their own terminal equipment to the internet right at the time German Germany was mainly DSL. 109 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:47,000 Contrary the vast majority of the end users were using DSL right and therefore it was consolidated however there was there are some technical differences between DSL the coax the coaxial type of. 110 00:20:47,000 --> 00:21:07,000 Internet where you use cable right the television cable to provide you internet and fiber right and the argument that the fiber internet provided speak some years later so now we go a little bit further and to tell 2022 and when they said look. 111 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:18,000 I think we need an exception for this law to apply to fiber because fiber is different from DSL in relation to the technical elements that. 112 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:35,000 While the medium where DSL works and and the copper cables flows from the domain cable from the street into the the apartments or into the homes they're completing that in independent right so. 113 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:42,000 And they are just joined together in this boxes that stays on on the street however. 114 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:59,000 We fiber deep on right the type of fiber that is more popular here in Europe and in Germany it's called the deep on the medium is shared it means like sometimes depending on how the internet serves provider. 115 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:17,000 The side is to organize the distribution of the cables that the fiber cables in a neighborhood are in a building it means like that some of the cables are shared between the apartments are between the homes and it means like if there is a disruption. 116 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:26,000 These cables more apartments are other homes will be affected on with this disruption which is harder to achieve with DSL. 117 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:41,000 So that like their argument is if I use my own router this could somehow damage the connection and this would then interfere also with the other people in the building that are also connected to the fiber. 118 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:56,000 So they and they are they are good at if the telecom provider can give to each home are a device that they can completely control right. 119 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:07,000 It would be easier for for them to to keep the network safer or with less disruptions right however. 120 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:22,000 We and other any cases that proof the stands exactly and and so I work to to get refiled so this in 2023 and we submitted a comprehensive position. 121 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:35,000 To them to to to to to boom those nets again tour and we ask them look perhaps not perhaps what you should if the the telecom operators they are cleaning this. 122 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:47,000 There should be data there should be statistics it should be we should not allow the the telecom regulator which which is a technical body. 123 00:23:47,000 --> 00:24:03,000 To to decide and to to to take a decision against consumer rights that are consolidated on the European level on just based on some assumptions of the telecom providers right but they should then prove is there as as was said is there numbers. 124 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:13,000 are there numbers regarding damage to the network that people using their own routers could inflict to to the network. 125 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:30,000 And and and and then we wrote in our paper to to the boom those nets are going to that even so if they would provide each home each apartment with their own terminal equipment their fiber optical terminal equipment. 126 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:47,000 It would still be physically located in their apartment so if a bad user if a a rogue user wanted to to disrupt the network it would still have physical contact with the the the the equipment right. 127 00:24:47,000 --> 00:25:05,000 Then we asked them and and I think who does that's again tour was since about a sensible is either by that since device by that I'm sorry and and and they asked the operators and and the operators came with just one case in 2016. 128 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:24,000 Can you imagine this money millions of users use the internet every day almost 24 hours per day in the whole country right and and here in Germany the number of users using their own equipment is is high because we. 129 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,000 We had a comprehensive survey. 130 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:40,000 And the numbers of users using their own routers are higher in comparison to other countries and even so. 131 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:54,000 There was no significant number of disruptions in the network right and and we were happy to see that the the both the sets are going to recognize this and they said look of course telecom operators provided also. 132 00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:08,000 Some scenarios that they managed to to disrupt the internet I started the network on level of laboratory so they could look some tests and they said oh there are some cases here that. 133 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:27,000 The network was damaged but then the one does that second to a set yeah but these are just tests they're not real life things do have stats on real life and it didn't it didn't present so yeah so to answer a question oh there there was no stats on this. 134 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,000 This is a short break for our own cause. 135 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:39,000 Thank you for listening to the software feed-in podcast working for software feed-in and producing podcasts cost money. 136 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:47,000 Please consider supporting us with a donation on the ffs e.org slash tonight at the show notes. 137 00:26:48,000 --> 00:27:00,000 I find this so amazing that there's one case that they actually found it were able to show yeah we have one but compared to as you already said millions of them. 138 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:08,000 Alex and because I do have another question about this because I find this a really fascinating topic also from a political point of view. 139 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:16,000 How was this and I've done fun to say fight but defending of the right. 140 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:25,000 Going and Alex you already pointed out that this has been taking years to reach this final decision so. 141 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:43,000 How much involvement has been from the ffs e and how do you stick to a topic that's popping up every now and then and it's a repeated thing that you have to do you know what I mean like it's not something that you do and then you have to success but it's. 142 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,000 I'm saying that tracks on for years. 143 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:55,000 Yeah, unfortunately there are very limited decisions that came overnight so most of the political fights. 144 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:08,000 Take ages and I think the the the world of case is a very good example of such a basically if one wants to say niche topic which still keeps us busy for. 145 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:23,000 For decades and I think look has already pointed out where or what what the main argument of of telcos was and and by it worked out and it's security. 146 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:37,000 And as I already said back in the days we had the coalition of the conservatives in the social democrats and they are in general very very open to security arguments and they are very very open to arguments by telcos. 147 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:51,000 If you look at the telco market and these have been state driven companies for a while before they were like the privatization taking place and still Germany holds is a it's a shareholder of. 148 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:58,000 The daughter telecom for example, so they have very strong connections and there's like. 149 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:05,000 Some sort of revolving door lobbyism in the telcos fear and that's my. 150 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:14,000 It was easy for them to make this a point and decision makers trusted them and that's why it was quite difficult. 151 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:24,000 To listen to our arguments so first we are civil society organization and on the other hand we had. 152 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:36,000 Yeah telcos having billions of billions of billions of euros and they invested this billions into this lobbified and on the other hand it have been asked with a few donations a few people working on this. 153 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:45,000 For sure what we tried to is to come up with networks so with so partner partnering with other organizations so it was not. 154 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:57,000 F is if you only fight but in particular and Germany many civil society organizations came together and to pull resources since we were facing. 155 00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,000 Very strong. 156 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:10,000 Technobius on the other side so and it took us from the coalition treaty which which happened in 2013 which was already. 157 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,000 Amazing step that we had that in the coalition treaty to come up as well the freedom. 158 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:24,000 Another two years to modify the upcoming draft and proposals so even if it was in the coalition treaty and quite clearly I'd say. 159 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,000 The first draft in the parliament and from the ministries have been. 160 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,000 Wake they have been full of loopholes they didn't guarantee it. 161 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:44,000 And just the two years later in 2015 the parliament came up as a law which we then also applauded and very very came to basically a compromise which was. 162 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:54,000 Okay but it also showed that even there we had to fight we we have to close loop points and this is basically how all of this political work. 163 00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:13,000 Could be summarized so often you have nice words in the beginning but if you look at the first draft if you look at the paper works then after then then then you see the need fixing them and also then also they are so even if you have then the law. 164 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:30,000 And you have to check implementation so and even then tell goes try to attack it and this is what happened with the business network and so even if we had the law we had to go to an agency and again they came up with the security argument so they continue this and they continue to come up with this. 165 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:57,000 One could say like they act like it's been doctors yeah so they just try to use this very vague argument and successfully won't have to say and it's our terms to fight this to come up with technical arguments to find evidence and to counter these kind of arguments and also I mean if you look in general at the free software movement we are often facing the argument of security issues. 166 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:03,000 So it's it's basically a fight we are fighting since the very beginning of the FSE to tell them. 167 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:18,000 These security arguments you are coming up with there there is no technical evidence for this but still decision makers trust those kind of arguments and that's one of our major fights we fight in the FSE since ever. 168 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:36,000 It's to come up with technical arguments is to come up with this arguments checking the real world and trying to convince step by step by educating decision makers how it really looks like and what arguments work out and which what arguments don't work out. 169 00:32:36,000 --> 00:33:02,000 And that's basically the political fight look as well as referring to so even if you have some nice works you have to continue the efforts and even if you have rules you have to continue efforts and even if you have to decision you have to monitor and check if they stay and that's basically our work and yeah so that's why sometimes these activities and fights take so long and I can I can completely understand our community. 170 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:24,000 And and or on general communities coming off on this like technical movements that they say why isn't it already why don't you see it by don't they understand it but it takes time it takes enormous time and this router freedom activity shows that we can be successful but only if we fight forever and that's basically it. 171 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:32,000 So like if you continue to bundle our resources and to also be active on the such topics. 172 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:48,000 Precisely and even even more important that we monitor so even if we even if we have to feeling of success or even if we have nice words for success it doesn't mean that there is success and and that's the important thing is to keep monitoring. 173 00:33:48,000 --> 00:34:04,000 And keep being a watchdog and go out if there is if there's something going in the wrong direction take part in these kind of consultations and I can tell you to to come up with a feedback to these kind of consultations for the bonus letter. 174 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:14,000 It's not something where you just say router freedom nice nice please go for it so it's it's it's it's really something so you you have to create evidence you have to answer questions. 175 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:32,000 We have to give detailed answers so this takes time this takes resources and I'm very happy that the that the evidence have never gave up on this fight and that they continue and and that they have been their voice in this which was staying all over time. 176 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:50,000 And and fight it for this so and we need these kind of organizations and it's not only the efficiency there are other organizations on other topics out there that have these one or two topics that they always follow we know this and this is how we also distribute work in the civil society at least in Germany or in in Europe. 177 00:34:50,000 --> 00:35:00,000 Because we have limited resources for us at FSE if you would be nice if you could work on all the topics out there touching for software but it's simply not possible due to our limited resources. 178 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:19,000 This is true for all civil society organizations in particular in Germany we see the pressure from the conservative snow on civil society organizations fighting these fights and that's why it's so important to donate to us that we can do this work and fight for consumers and in this case router consumers in Europe and Germany. 179 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:34,000 Thank you so much for pointing this out yeah look I'm sorry to you in order to to give a concrete example what Alex was saying about the difference between having nice words in law and then checking. 180 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:43,000 Implementation and then monitoring you know for the decision if a lot of money I would like to put it in very concrete example. 181 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:59,000 Yes please please this is right so so I read to you guys article three one from the open internet regulation from 2015 which for me sounds good but then why it took. 182 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:09,000 Jove years eleven years to get a fine decision right as Alex said so what happened what happened is that. 183 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:30,000 There was in 2020 after the latest reform of telecom law in Europe because there are several tracks as Alex was saying right so we we had a discussion on that neutrality but the privatization of the telecom sector in in Europe has been. 184 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:43,000 And pushing forward for a bunch set of rules that usually matches the decade so every 10 years there is a major law or a group of laws in Europe. 185 00:36:43,000 --> 00:37:04,000 Reforming further the the telecom sector in relation to to the privatization so in the 90s we had the opening up of the land lines and then we had the privatization for structures and then came the internet and then we had the the privatization of the cables and and so on right and. 186 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:17,000 And in with the the net neutrality we had also then this possibility to to to give up and use the possibility for them to choose their own equipment smart phones or rotors. 187 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:34,000 The good thing is and I would like this to contextualize here how good position actually even your opinion is in relation to other countries including the US I mean because that the natural neutrality has been also a very difficult. 188 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:49,000 I don't want to get much into details because I'm not super into it but I will give some examples look in other countries when you're using your smartphone. 189 00:37:49,000 --> 00:38:07,000 You are not for example, if you connect to the 4G right you are not able to to turn your smartphone as a hotspot so you cannot share the internet that you're using for you with other device right. 190 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:22,000 If the network operator detects it can it can even cancel your contract with them or stipulated or stipulated a fine for you using a hotspot on on your smartphone. 191 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,000 Before in some years in the beginning of 2010s. 192 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:49,000 Some telecom operators they even sold some models of smartphone without Wi-Fi because they wanted you to use only the the 3G at the time and they sold the the smartphones without Wi-Fi right or they didn't allow you to use Bluetooth to connect to the internet. 193 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:59,000 So network operators they always try to find ways to to limit user actions in order to connect to the internet to give full access to the internet. 194 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:06,000 And when this open internet regulation came inside look people should have the right to connect the internet in dispute. 195 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:13,000 You know it was a hugely forward because then nowadays the type of rights that we have run on our day. 196 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:18,000 I wanted to connect the internet via Bluetooth nobody does this anymore but if I want I can do this. 197 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,000 I want to use the Wi-Fi to connect to a public network I can do this. 198 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:35,000 I wanted to share my internet using my phone as a hotspot whatever I can do this but this is not for granted this is an outcome of civil society engagement asking for more freedom. 199 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:45,000 And as Alex correctly point out there was always a back selection security so what happened the latest batch of telecom reform in 2018. 200 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:51,000 Introduce a loophole into this very nice article three that we're talking about here. 201 00:39:51,000 --> 00:40:01,000 So they said look I think in order for users to use their own routers the terminal equipment I think we needed to set up some technical rules. 202 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:09,000 Not legal rules but technical specifications in order to safeguard the integrity of the network. 203 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:19,000 And then this law it was a directive in 2018 called a European electronic communication code set up this. 204 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:29,000 Testing barrack barrack is a association of the European association of telecom regulators right so each country has a telecom regulator. 205 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:42,000 So in Germany we have a Bundesnet second tour in France we have the RCAP in Italy we have article and the umbrella organization of all these regulators are called barrack. 206 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:57,000 And this law task barrack to define the technical specifications for the regulators to assess if this right could be implemented or not in each jurisdiction. 207 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:10,000 We were very wary against it at the time we are saying look this will fragment the market and we need to consolidate this this right on the entire market. 208 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:32,000 And of course we managed that the time I was not super involved but I followed historically this debate and the compromise at that time was that barrack set a tree layer approach saying the default approach is that end user should should have the right to use their routers and smartphones to connect the internet. 209 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:50,000 However, if in the term jurisdiction in Italy, France, Austria, Germany, Poland, whatever the telecom operator not operator regulator determines there is some technical. 210 00:41:50,000 --> 00:42:09,000 Necessities that our exception should be put forward then there is a list of specifications that the telecom should take care about and there is privacy elements security elements you know. 211 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:26,000 The condition of the market so there is a list of specifications that the regulator should analyze in order to to the term right so since this happened 2020 there was already a law before that. 212 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:34,000 In Germany as Alex put explain us in 2016 there was already a law of saying and users should use it can use their own routers right. 213 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:56,000 But then what happened in 2021 Germany had to implement this directive international legislation because this is how it works in the European Union right and then they had to reimplement this specific rule about this tree layer approach by barrack right. 214 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:17,000 And there was only one article in the telecommunications is gazettes take a gay here in Germany right sorry if I didn't pronounce it correctly but so what happened it was that they said okay we will do this but if we do this we have to take into consideration. 215 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:34,000 Yeah the views of stakeholders at the time we said we already have a law on this so if you want to do this this is the moment that you can consolidate right now in 2021 and say we will adopt the point A from barrack. 216 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:51,000 In order to determine where the network of the operator ends so basically all the specifications from barrack is to determine where the network of the operator ends and at the time so barrack said. 217 00:43:51,000 --> 00:44:05,000 If end users should have the right to use their own routers it means like that everything that inside their apartments is network of them users so any type of device that end users are using. 218 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:21,000 And they will plug into the wall socket it's their own devices everything away from the wall outside of the home is property of the telecom operator and then we said at the time we submitted a position saying. 219 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:38,000 This is the time to say that everything inside the wall from the end user premises so any users apartment is property of the end users everything that is out is property of the telecom operator however unfortunately we we didn't manage it to to put that in the law. 220 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:57,000 As I said okay fine at least we we have this tree layer approached by barrack but then as I'll explain to the telecom operators they are constantly pushing back and 2022 they came up with this and say okay since now we have this specification from barrack now it's time for us to argue for our will for an exception. 221 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:15,000 Saying that there is indeed this objective technological necessity is in Germany for us to conclude there is an a security exception in relation to fiber therefore we need to consider that the network of operators didn't. 222 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:36,000 Doesn't end on the wall but can even go into the consumer premises and end up on this optical network termination point that operators can then put their own devices inside the home of the consumers and they can do this by law basically right. 223 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:48,000 And and I'm happy to see that one of the steps again through was not sensitive by by that and they sticked with the the the standard position that barracks suggested that is point A saying no. 224 00:45:49,000 --> 00:46:05,000 The network of the operators and on the wall socket everything that is inside from the consumer apartment and premises they belong to the consumers so just to to give some illustration on the complexes that Alex was mentioned. 225 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:19,000 I can imagine and what I had with me doing this conversation now is that I find this a fascinating because it touches so many levels that I did not think about before. 226 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:29,000 So like the examples you mentioned because I find them so fascinating also with the history back from the 50s I think this is amazing how. 227 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:43,000 In how much intertwined router freedom is with our daily lives and how far it reaches back into the history and yeah how many resources we have already spent on this. 228 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,000 But to wrap it up a bit as the time is moving for us. 229 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:56,000 Could you also you already mentioned that barracks European organization and that barracks has some guidelines here could you give us an overview for. 230 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:04,000 Yeah, wrapping this whole conversation up how it looks in Europe currently in other countries and if there's something that. 231 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,000 People from our listener base could do to support here. 232 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:27,000 I just wanted to to point that about this fragmentation of the approaches from different regulators right and I found this incredible because. 233 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:34,000 It's not alone on this right and other regulators have decided very similarly. 234 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,000 To to boom this next. 235 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:49,000 Prioritizing consumer rights consumer protection on this debate which I found this is the correct position to take right so at your answer your question so. 236 00:47:49,000 --> 00:48:06,000 So I've heard said that the assessment whether the regulator can determine there is a necessity for an exception to router freedom right they should take in consideration the interoperability between the public network and the the router itself. 237 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:16,000 The simplest of operation for the network security data protection and some other elements but Bonnie if. 238 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:28,000 Every telecom regulator would have taken the they step in order to implement this guidelines because this guidelines are not legally coercive. 239 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,000 That's why I said it's a loophole because. 240 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,000 The the losses the the tele the national authorities. 241 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:56,000 Has to to take into consideration but they they have a descriptive power to to decide against it right so it's a it's a loophole and I would be personally happy if every telecom operator in Europe regulator I'm sorry the national authorities they would. 242 00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:12,000 Given some efforts in order to analyze this guidelines and implement this in order to decide against party favor of router freedom because this has been a fight for it as well so not only to protect router freedom but we need to convince. 243 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:21,000 A national authorities to follow the law to to say look there is already specifications for you to decide a favor against a router freedom and I will give an. 244 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:32,000 An example very shortly I don't want you to get into which into details but Alex we work together on this it was in Austria and also in Austria we had. 245 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:47,000 And state code conversations we had public events we had a coalition together with digital rights groups in Austria in order to convince the national authority to decide on router freedom based. 246 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,000 All the specifications by barrier indeed didn't. 247 00:49:51,000 --> 00:50:13,000 So they took a decision even without considering that the barric guidelines on this right and they did they provide a five page document in comparison to the 70 pages document reproduced by both is that second to her saying yeah we we want to do this right now and we don't think there is a need to investigate this for in Austria another example is friends. 248 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,000 friends they consider that. 249 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:26,000 routers are property of the the telecom operators and they they don't even want to to open this and to check if there's this there is a necessity. 250 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:36,000 an exception for for for this and and to take and to tackle the bear guidelines so this is very complex you know and now we are in. 251 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:47,000 invoked in Italy right now because Italy they even step further for a complex on this evolving competition issues but again this is a topic for another another opportunity. 252 00:50:47,000 --> 00:51:13,000 but just to to wrap up on this I'm very happy that boom does not second to listen to to to stake holders you know to our position and they they gave it a effort to implement the bear guidelines and this is super cool because together with Belgium together with the Netherlands they concluded there is no necessity for an exception and router freedom should be they standard on the market. 253 00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:22,000 maybe maybe to at here what what our community can do is since you since you maybe understood is that we that we fight this fight. 254 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:33,000 27 times in every member state you can you can help us if you are in one of those member states and point to us if debates in this directions are starting. 255 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,000 27 times if regulators if these. 256 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:46,000 Microsoft's well is also a key step in if consultations take place so normally we have a good monitoring for this but yeah that would be helpful and and also. 257 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:57,000 I stand up and speak up so in your in your member states so this is super helpful I think what we learned from the past in particular around this fight but also in general. 258 00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:06,000 for for our work in the pre software foundation Europe is speak up and continue to speak up even if it takes 10 years. 259 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:26,000 continue this fight and for this in particular you can help us with donations since it's it's look as it's me but it's it's also other people who are getting paid by NGOs to be able to work on those topics to be able to follow those topics for decades and to to monitor it to stay up to stand up and speak up. 260 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:50,000 and and this is so important and and this wouldn't be possible without our community without the continuous support of people constantly monitoring and working on this topic in the member states but also donating to us supporting us that we can fight for them and that's that's basically how you can support us in this is support us. 261 00:52:51,000 --> 00:53:06,000 I like that I think that's a very nice closing word Alex so happy that you talked to me about this that you made the time to join me here and to also give us all the insights because as I already said it's a very. 262 00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:35,000 brought topic actually there are 27 different takes on it and I find also the history already said so fascinating and yeah I'm really really grateful that you gave us the insights and I also want to say thank you to you and I'm really happy that at least in Germany we now have a very positive story and a very positive take out and that's thanks to your support here thank you very much. 263 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:41,000 Thanks a lot for helping us this was a great fun thanks for discussing this important topic. 264 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:55,000 All right due to the time I want to wrap it up and I would say we talk about this further I hope in the next episode and yeah maybe there's also some new stories then from other European countries. 265 00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:02,000 Thank you so much this was the software freedom podcast if you liked this episode please recommend to your friends and write it. 266 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:13,000 Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance of software freedom and of course it's impact on our digital life as we just learned there are a lot of impacts. 267 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:21,000 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe we are a charity that works on promoting software freedom. 268 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:26,000 If you like our work please consider supporting us with further nation. 269 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:33,000 You find more information under FSE.org slash donate thank you so much bye bye. 270 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,000 Thank you.