Transcript of SFP#33: Policy and EU: Coalition treaty in Germany and its role for Free Software
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SFP#033: Policy and EU: Coalition treaty in Germany and its role for Free Software
1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,120 If we then look at a U.P. level, we have a commissioner for tax opportunities or also make sense 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:11,000 to have a ministry in Germany that is, so to say, account the part to this. 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,840 So I think the time is now to come up with something like this, that's for sure. 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,480 But it's absolutely unclear how strong this ministry will be, what's the scope and 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:26,120 accept the person and this also something important, you need somebody who is not only 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:47,560 becoming the needed knowledge, but also with the engagement and power to come up with change. 7 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:52,720 Welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast, this podcast is presented to you by the Free Software 8 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:53,720 Foundation Europe. 9 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:58,480 We are a charity that empowers users to take control of technology. 10 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:03,000 I'm Bonnie Mehring, and today I'm here with Alexander Sander. 11 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:08,880 Alex, who has now been a regular guest on this podcast, is the Senior Policy Consultant 12 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:10,760 for the FSFE. 13 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:17,120 And in his work for the FSFE, he monitors the happenings in the European Union and also pushes 14 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,760 for the recognition of Free Software. 15 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:25,480 Together, we will cover the latest developments at Germany in regard to the policy and 16 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,320 the Coalition Treaty in Germany. 17 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:35,000 This treaty was formed by the Conservative parties, CDU and CSU, and the social democrats 18 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,320 called SPD in Germany. 19 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:39,840 Thank you, Alex, for being here. 20 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:45,200 Thank you so much for making the time and to walking us through the Coalition Treaty and also 21 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:46,200 the latest developments. 22 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:47,200 Thank you very much. 23 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,120 Yeah, thanks for having me. 24 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:56,920 So Alex, this treaty has now been out for around a week, as far as I remember. 25 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,240 What is your first take on this treaty? 26 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,440 I guess it might have some spill over effect on the European Union as well. 27 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,640 How do you think that this looks like? 28 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:15,280 Yeah, so I mean, we studied the treaty and there are definitely some things that most likely 29 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:22,440 will also have an impact on the European Union and its Germany as a large member state 30 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:23,440 of the European Union. 31 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,440 It's also important to learn what the Germans are about to do in the next four years. 32 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,440 And that's why this Coalition Treaty is not only important for Germany, but also for the 33 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:33,440 European Union. 34 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:38,040 In particular, then there are also some references to the European Union, how they want 35 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,040 to collaborate on the topic of Free Software. 36 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,800 And yeah, for example, coming up with a shared deck and stuff like this. 37 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,680 And yeah, let's dive into this and discuss a bit what we will see in the next four years 38 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,520 in Germany, but also in the European Union. 39 00:02:53,520 --> 00:03:03,400 And yeah, what to expect this will be pretty interesting as the devil is Austin in the 40 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:04,400 detail. 41 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:12,960 I can imagine, and there are over 140 sides to this whole treaty. 42 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:19,400 But how many sides are specifically on digital policies and the new digital minister? 43 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,640 Well, I mean, it's for us it's not that important how many sides it's more on what 44 00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:25,640 they say. 45 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:32,920 And here there are just a few sentences that shed light on the topic of Free Software. 46 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:40,160 And there are some also some other topics or words they use that also can contribute 47 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:41,160 to this topic. 48 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,720 And this is what we are going to analyze now. 49 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,800 I mean, also you mentioned that there will be a new ministry. 50 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:53,480 And that also sort of important, but also here, it depends on like what the scope of this 51 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:59,280 ministry, how strong will the ministry be, also in the context to other ministries. 52 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:08,040 And then ultimately, who is leading this ministry and how ambitious is this person towards 53 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:13,920 the goals that are not only in the treaty, but also in general, the knowledge and ambitions 54 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:20,880 of this person that are also something which should be recognized by analyzing and analyzing 55 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:21,880 this treaty. 56 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:29,160 That let's start with what's in it on Free Software, in the treaty, they talk about open 57 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:30,160 source. 58 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,800 And I mean, it's first of all, what's interesting is that they want to collaborate with 59 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:43,400 private and public actors in order to promote open source ecosystem, which is quite okay, 60 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,120 I'd say, and it's also a reasonable goal. 61 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,360 I mean, that's something we have seen in the past. 62 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,800 Not only in private actors, we also need public actors, we need public funding, for example, 63 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,520 we need procurement, all of these topics we already discussed in the podcast on funding, 64 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,680 but also on the procurement rules. 65 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:07,920 We have the campaign public money, public code, which is asking government basically to release 66 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:14,720 everything under Free Software Light and as soon as you invest public money in software. 67 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:22,640 So there are already some step forward in the last years that also the German government 68 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:29,920 understood that Free Software plays an important role to reach digital sovereignty to have 69 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:38,400 a resilient IT infrastructure to be independent and to come out, for example, out of 70 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:39,400 vandalizing. 71 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:46,320 So that's what also the upcoming government understood that also what is reflected in the 72 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:52,480 treaty, in the coalition treaty, however, if we then look at what they want to do 73 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,680 precisely, then it's getting a bit vague. 74 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:03,280 So for example, they say that they want to define ambitious goals on the topic of open source, 75 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:05,920 which means that they didn't define it yet. 76 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:11,520 So the only thing that they agreed on is that they want to be ambitious and that this needs 77 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:12,720 to be defined. 78 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,800 So we can already see that they are like upcoming work for us. 79 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:19,840 I can't imagine. 80 00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:25,840 So this is something that is in the whole treaty, as far as I have here and rat in all of the 81 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:33,120 upper resources, that this is something which is a lot in this coalition treaty that there 82 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:40,720 are not specific goals or specific details, but that's more of a let's talk about this later 83 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,240 attitude and we will just kind of like do this. 84 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,200 How do you see this in regard to Free Software? 85 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:53,600 Do you think that Free Software has a strong stand in the treaty or will be undermined? 86 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,040 That's actually in regard to open washing as well. 87 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,800 Yeah, I mean, in general, that's why it's such a long treaty, I think. 88 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:07,120 So since they didn't manage it to precisely agree on things, they had to describe things a lot. 89 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:14,160 So that's why I also think there's upcoming work for us. 90 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,920 I mean, the good thing is that they say they want to be ambitious. 91 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:25,520 So that's something that we can also follow up and where we can or where we need to follow up and see 92 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:27,920 what this means in practice. 93 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:35,280 Also, they give already some insights for example that they say they want to work with the sender 94 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:41,520 of digital sovereignty, for example, or the surrender agency, they also want to collaborate 95 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:46,880 a U.P. and why they also want to come up with a so-called German stack which should be 96 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:52,480 somehow collaborate and be embedded in the U-Stack initiative in Europe. 97 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:58,080 So we can also already see that they have important actors on the radar and that they also 98 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:03,840 see that they need to collaborate. So that's something which is very, very good and very, very useful 99 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:09,440 and also needed. So in this regard, I'd say they found the right spot where they need to work 100 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:17,520 on what is missing is concrete goals. So for example, we want to see that 20% of the budget 101 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:25,440 is to be invested in Free Software, for example, or that we want to remove and 30% of our 102 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:31,280 window looking for something like this. So this is what's missing. The only reference we have 103 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:37,920 is that it needs to be ambitious. So if you look at this word, I think it's fair to say 104 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:43,920 we should compare it to what we're done in the past. So this means it needs to be better than the 105 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:50,800 last government. So else it wouldn't be ambitious, right? So it's not about keeping the status quo, 106 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:56,400 but they say want to be ambitious, it needs to be better than before. So I think that's somehow 107 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:03,360 the threshold what we are looking for and so this is at least the bare minimum what we can expect 108 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:10,400 or what we should expect from the next government and this is then also I do believe something for 109 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:17,520 as soon as we have the new government where we need to follow up is then to make sure that the goals 110 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:23,360 that are defined are becoming one of the priorities of the next government. So as you also said 111 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:29,520 if you look at the coalition treaty in general, it's not only in the topic of Free Software 112 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:35,680 but in many other topics as well that they are remaining very vague and that they are not very 113 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:41,600 clear on their priorities. So it's absolutely unclear if they want to be ambitious in the beginning 114 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:48,480 of their legislative firm or in the end for example. So and this is on us as the whole Free Software 115 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:55,440 community to make sure that this topic is becoming a priority and if you look at the other 116 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,880 member states in the European Union and the European Union itself it also makes sense to bring 117 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:06,640 pressure to it since the others are also working on this and it doesn't make sense to be the last one 118 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:12,560 in the party but to join the party early and in particular for Germany it makes sense since they 119 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:18,160 already came up with solution like open desk and open code with the center of digital sovereignty 120 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:27,200 in the past to continue this path and to at the needed resources for this to go there and this is 121 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:34,320 another very important thing it's about budget. So also they talk about budget for these activities 122 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:40,560 and here they say they want to provide the needed resources but they don't say anything on how much 123 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:48,240 and when. So and this is also a huge problem also here in general for the whole coalition treaty 124 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:54,400 and they didn't talk about money they just say we want to do this we want to do this we want to do this 125 00:10:54,560 --> 00:11:01,440 if there is the money for this so and this makes it absolutely complicated since it's also not 126 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:07,200 clear again where they put their priorities to and also it's not clear where the money should come 127 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:14,800 for so it could be easy for them to say for like every topic they have in the coalition treaty 128 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:20,080 yes always sorry we don't have the money and this is again on other countries they put in this 129 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:25,760 very important sentence that I would also like to highlight because this is like this is 130 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:35,360 saying that will define the whole work of this coalition is to sentence if we have the money for it 131 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:40,400 and I find this very fascinating because this puts a lot of power to define an actual ministry 132 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:47,280 you're not only to the financial ministry but it's pretty clear that there will be huge discussions 133 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:52,480 between the ministry itself right so it's not then that the ministry of finance just distributed 134 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:57,520 to the money as he likes but there will be also discussions between the ministry the ministry of 135 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:04,800 economics the fight the ministry of environment for simply for resources and this also means that 136 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:11,280 there is a completely new ministry as you at in the beginning right this ministry of digital things 137 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,360 let's say it like this so it's also not I have you don't know the name exactly yeah 138 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:21,440 it's a country yeah so let's say the digital ministry so we don't know the name we don't know who is 139 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:27,680 going to run it and even worse we don't know the scope of this ministry so and it's also pretty 140 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:34,880 unclear how much power it will have how important it will be and how strong they can fight or defend 141 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:40,720 topics they work on so this is all very unclear at the moment and this is also where we 142 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:47,920 have huge debate or whether it's the huge debate and I mean you can pretty much compare with the 143 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:55,680 this German Bundestag so there two terms ago they introduced the committee for digital affairs 144 00:12:55,680 --> 00:13:01,120 so where they want to discuss digital topics in a specific committee but this was not a leading 145 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:06,960 committee but just like a consulting committee so it didn't have the needed power to really 146 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:13,840 have a stance on digital topics so they have been absolute expert in this committee and they 147 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:19,600 talked about the right things I think however they didn't have the power to make that much change 148 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:26,400 also there was a missing ministry on the other hand this is now added I think that's a good thing 149 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:32,240 so that we have basically in the parliament a committee and we are also on the other hand have a 150 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:38,880 ministry also again if we then look at the U.P. level we have a commissioner for tax opportunities 151 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:45,360 or also make sense to have a ministry in Germany that is so to say account the part to this so I 152 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:51,280 think the time is now to come up with something like this that's for sure but it's absolutely unclear 153 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:57,440 how strong this ministry will be what the scope and accept the person and this also something important 154 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:04,560 you need somebody who is not only coming with the needed knowledge but also with the engagement 155 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:12,400 and power to come up with change and so therefore it's difficult to say at the minute where all of 156 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:18,960 this will end and land at one point and as you said on the other hand we have this issue of 157 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:26,080 finding things all of this and so it's the worst case is that we end up with these nice words but 158 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:32,000 then they say we are sorry there is no money but on the other hand I do believe that there's also 159 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:38,080 a huge pressure coming from other member states and the U.P. union also like from external partners 160 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:43,920 we see how important it is to have independent infrastructure we can rely on and the only 161 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:50,240 answer to this is setting up such infrastructure which is software and I also do believe that more 162 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:56,960 and more decision makers understand the need for software and I mean that this is basically the only 163 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:03,440 solution since they also and this is interesting they talk about open standards for example 164 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:09,440 and that they want to define them so and also they use words like indoor mobility, 165 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:16,160 U.P. in collaboration around software also we have some things on education that we talk about 166 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:24,240 resilience, digital sovereignty and all these words has been also used heavily in debate about 167 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:32,400 the attacks of our energy about like how we can independent from in particular external partners 168 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:38,880 that are not coming from the U.P. union and how we can make sure that there is so to say proper 169 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:45,920 U.P. in IT market so and if you look at all this description they come up so how this market 170 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:53,600 should look like and and how for example public administrations should use IT then you can only 171 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:59,600 come up with the is the saying that this is only possible with software or so you can't have an 172 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:05,920 interoperable U.P. in administrations so to say without Free Software so since you always want 173 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:13,440 into close standards you run into vendor not in if you don't use Free Software so if you 174 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:20,480 as you are as we have seen in the past using this proper territory solution so then you are stuck 175 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:27,520 and you can't collaborate you can't be interoperable and for this so even if they don't 176 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:33,440 precisely talk about Free Software open source they want to collaborate they want to be 177 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:38,800 interoperable and this I say is only possible with Free Software and this is then also something 178 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:44,800 where we as Free Software community need to step in and make sure that this is reflected once they 179 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:51,440 start working on this so they give us also some ideas some things where they want to 180 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:57,840 for example collaborate on U.P. in level on this on this stack so there are some some ideas 181 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:05,120 some are called one stack a U.S. stack then we have national stacks so in the coalition treaty 182 00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:11,200 they talk about a German stack but they also recognize that it's absolutely meaningless to do this 183 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:17,520 in silos but to collaborate on this and this collaboration so to come up with a U.P. in stack 184 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:25,040 where member states and different actors, private and public actors contribute to such a stack 185 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:31,760 this could only be done with the software since the four freedoms to use study share and improve 186 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:38,720 allow this collaboration any other property thing wouldn't allow this wouldn't allow 187 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:45,920 interoperability and therefore the path could only be Free Software solution to work with and it's on 188 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,880 the other hand important for us to to discuss this things we also see other discussions happening 189 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:57,760 on the U.P. in the moment that are coming with slogans like by European or things like this 190 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:05,280 which is also a something in particular if you look at the software market or not over there 191 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:13,120 the Free Software market there is nothing like a national IT right so our IT is global 192 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:20,240 it was global it will remain global so else we can't run our infrastructure without open standards 193 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,200 we wouldn't have the internet for example and this is then also true for every other system so we 194 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:31,120 need to have open standards and for interoperability and collaboration we need a global approach 195 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:37,760 however if you look at the market you will also see that in in particular if you invest in 196 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:46,560 Free Software you will often end up with SMEs and if you procure in Europe Free Software you will 197 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:54,560 also most likely end up with European SMEs so you don't need this slogan by European if you say 198 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:59,760 we want to invest in Free Software and that's something where I fear that decision makers 199 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,480 haven't understood this correctly at the moment but this is then something we need to work on 200 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:10,960 and the term in the next term in the next four years on the national level but also on a European level 201 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:17,760 to make clear that if you want to have like a European stack where the European commission 202 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:23,920 together with the member states collaborate on such a solution that this is only possible with 203 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:29,840 software and if you do this you will also most likely end up with a lot of European SMEs which 204 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,800 just then also good for the European market but also we have spill over effect in the topics 205 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:43,360 the coalition treaty also talks about namely skills resilient consumers since they then will get 206 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:51,120 also the tools which are developed for public administration and can reuse them for example 207 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:59,920 in the civil society organizations but also this is what I highlighted in a Bundestag theory in December 208 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:07,600 think about fire fighters think about hospitals they also need infrastructure and we should also 209 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:14,480 give them resilient infrastructure and not a proprietary software coming from non-European countries 210 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:23,440 absolutely absolutely so to put a phrase on this all there are a lot of possibilities basically 211 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:29,600 for Free Software industry but none of it is yet sure and it's definitely a task for the 212 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:37,680 digital civil society to take a careful eye on this to watch this and to see what actually 213 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:43,920 happening and to also push for Free Software. Absolutely we can feed the coalition treaty as a 214 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:49,920 starting point to fight for goals like public money public code to fight for funding and 215 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:56,880 publicly discuss in a recent podcast together but also to make sure that educational resources or 216 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:03,440 that education in general has an eye on Free Software and that all of these words like 217 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:09,360 interoperability and so on and so forth are filled with Free Software so these are the tasks so 218 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:15,280 even if they are just a few mentions of the term open source in the coalition treaty there are 219 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:21,520 still many other points where if you read it correctly you the answer could only be Free Software 220 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:26,080 and this is what we need to make sure that decision makers understand if you want to have 221 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:31,440 digital sovereignty you can only do this with Free Software as exchange to the 222 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:37,680 nature of the free ones and that will be the most challenging task in the next four years and then 223 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:45,600 I've metly putting money to this. Yes this of course I also have another question now 224 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:54,080 not I found really interesting the recently had as symposium for public money public code 225 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:59,760 and a lot of people were invited to this and a lot of people showed up what is your feeling 226 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:06,080 currently is the understanding of Free Software and especially to need to invest public money 227 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:14,000 in public code what's your feeling there how is this moving ahead and how is it going and what 228 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,760 are the latest happenings here yeah so with this event public money public code in practice we 229 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:28,080 brought together mainly local administrations regional administrations with players from national 230 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:37,360 level and civil society to discuss how we can collaborate and how we can learn from collaboration 231 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:44,320 of others how we can network what is already out there where we can build on and I think this is 232 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:50,240 all to something which we can reuse for the next four years so as the coalition to it it talks 233 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:56,080 about public and private collaboration I also do believe that we should have the layer of civil 234 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:03,440 society to this and research since there is already also a lot of experience on how to collaborate 235 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:11,280 on and yeah using a strategies and ideas as proof print and this is something we need to make 236 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:17,200 way more use out of it so the benefit of using Free Software is that we don't have to reinvent the 237 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:23,680 wheel and this is not only true for the code itself but also for processes and how we get there 238 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:31,120 so in this is something where we I think waste a lot of resources since public administrations from 239 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:40,080 time to time try to yeah or are used to work in silos and they have to adapt their workflows, 240 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:47,520 their style of working towards a way more collaborative attitude and this is something where we 241 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:53,040 can learn from others so and this is also nice that the coalition treaty talks about this collaboration 242 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:58,480 so that they want to collaborate with other member states with other public administrations and 243 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:05,680 here I think this was shown in this symposium that there is already a lot out there which we can 244 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,640 reuse where we can build on and this is something which we can bring into the debate and show 245 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:18,320 pace so how well all of this is already established in some areas and for us it's important 246 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:24,000 that we shed light on these actors that has been always disrespectful and that we learn from them 247 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:31,360 and I do believe that this symposium brought together these people and shed some light on this 248 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:36,960 and this is something what we learned we need more and not only in Germany but also in 249 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:42,080 other member states and we need to make sure that these people interact and I think that will be 250 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:50,160 also key for the next five or four years depending on the Europe Germany is to make sure that 251 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:56,560 the actors that want to get active collaborate talk to each other and learn from each other 252 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:03,040 and in this regard these events help and this is also something where I do believe that 253 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:08,400 some money should go so if we talk about resources we do not only talk about technical 254 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:14,720 solution in the end we should always also look at the community around and this community I 255 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:22,720 do not necessarily mean the community we talk about but also the community's other talks about so 256 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:28,960 if you look for example at the center of digital reality their community is mainly companies 257 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:35,840 why so they need to bring together different companies that had to develop this open desk solution 258 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:44,160 if you look at Munich for example they collaborate with consul which is a tool which allows 259 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:51,840 participation for citizens and here they came up with a sponsorship since this is a foundation 260 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:57,280 and since you can't easily procure from them and this is also something we learn so 261 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:04,640 other than classical procurement procedures we need also to go other ways to work together with 262 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:10,320 the different communities and to come up with good solutions and it's not like that we if you 263 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:16,000 I don't know go on a market for chairs or something like this you just go there by the best chair 264 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,440 and then pull stop right so and you have right basically one vendor you talk to and then this is good 265 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,400 but if you talk about Free Software you can't just go to a market and procure something 266 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,120 sometimes you have to come up with other solutions you have to think about sponsorship you have to 267 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:38,400 think about giving the nation or just like a small amount of money into communities 268 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:45,520 to make something happen so and this needs a rethinking and for this rethinking we should learn 269 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:51,600 from strategies of others who already had good experience with this and where we don't have to 270 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:58,880 reinvent the wheel so to say not in the IT itself but in how we collaborate with the Free Software 271 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:04,560 ecosystem and this is something where the symposium shed a lot of light on and where we basically 272 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,760 where there was also a lot of agreement that you need to go other paths of collaboration 273 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:16,800 yeah that we know from the past for the fact all right that sounds very interesting and like 274 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:26,480 something we should have visited yeah so but we try to do more of these kind of events and also 275 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:34,240 I mean we have around public money public code it's easy to to get around and to like learn what 276 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:39,600 we are doing in this area and to collaborate with us so yeah join us in these kind of events 277 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,800 contribute to this and also do believe that this is something more or less everyone can do so 278 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,840 if you talk about Free Software it's not that much anymore that you need to explain people 279 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:56,320 the concept of Free Software but whether or not like that there is way more than code and 280 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,640 I mean we also have seen this with the corona tracing at the very site so 281 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:06,400 ultimately it was not that much about the code it was about the different communities that came 282 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:12,480 together to come up with a ultimately technical solution yeah but it was not only technically 283 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,680 people coming together and this is something what we can learn and more for that one absolutely so 284 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,080 and this is basically where we are today and what we need to explain so if you talk about 285 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,760 European interoperability we should not talk about technical communities coming together 286 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:34,960 but communities that are needed to come up with a good solution no in regard to who was there 287 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:40,160 at this symposium I would love to talk a bit more about Sanders because Sanders is also mentioned 288 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:47,360 in the coalition treaty and there has been the first personal decision made there can you 289 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:54,560 shed some light on yeah so this is basically the first very sad story also this is also 290 00:28:54,560 --> 00:29:00,960 a bit strange so to say so during this event we we had the CEO of the Center of the Children's 291 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:08,400 Organities of the 10th and 30th of a limited in German and Jutta Horstmann she also gave a very good 292 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:14,400 keynote and she also was on the panel with us discussing all of these questions I was just 293 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:22,880 referring to and now she was removed from this position just the very next day after our symposium 294 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,040 so we do believe that there is no direct connection to what she was saying there 295 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:35,440 I do have some but I mean in general we yeah just learn about this the very next day after 296 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:42,240 she was at our event that yeah she was removed from this position or to there is not anyone 297 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:49,120 new to be assigned to this position and also it was a bit unclear why she was removed so there 298 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,960 has been statements from the Ministry of Interior who basically sent the CEO to this 299 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:01,920 Center of the Children's Organities and they were just saying like since we need to re-structure 300 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:10,000 we need to remove her which as we then go back to the beginning of this podcast doesn't make too 301 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,600 much sense since he still don't know the scope of everything right so and I doubt that the 302 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:22,720 Ministry of Interior is the one who comes up with the cabinet and will learn about how all of these 303 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:28,480 structure will look like so it rather looks like that they yeah use this moment to all by the 304 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:37,600 remove people that are not fully in line with what they are planning to do and this definitely 305 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:44,800 fears us so I think Jutta has done a very good job the University of the Children's Organities 306 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:50,880 she was also in the hearing in the German Bundestag explaining all the challenges that the 307 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:58,000 Center is facing at the moment however what we learn is that the new to the new formed Ministry 308 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:06,080 of the Children's whatever and so it's going to the Conservatives so the city will and since Jutta was 309 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:13,680 also a Queen Party member it might be that it was rather a political decision but what's happening 310 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:24,960 here then one based on what she has done and what she was planning to do so and in this regard we 311 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:31,360 definitely fear that Jutta will be replaced by someone who's not that much of an expert so we didn't 312 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:38,480 learn from from today on who will be the new person or the new CEO for for tennis and this 313 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:45,520 also looks a bit to me that it was a rather a very quick decision that was taken then a very 314 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:54,400 reflected decision and in particular as a such an important topic we also need stable decisions 315 00:31:54,480 --> 00:32:04,800 we need a continuation of things rather than people politics and power politics so and here it will 316 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:11,600 be definitely interesting to see if this change of the of the CEO position will also then 317 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:17,600 automatically come with changes in structures so until now we didn't learn anything about it 318 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:23,280 and also who's who's the next CEO of tennis and what will be the priorities of this person 319 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,720 so and for us it's important that we continue the good path that the tennis continues the 320 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,760 good collaboration they already started this European partner I think that something that they 321 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:39,920 just recently kicked off so that they are not working in the silo but that they collaborate not only 322 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:46,320 with in Germany with several public administrations on several levels what they are already 323 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:51,760 doing but that they also collaborate this European partner I think that's very important 324 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,560 and here we need to make sure that they don't lose ground and that they don't lose power 325 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:03,600 that they get the needed resources and also that they still do this good Free Software work 326 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,720 and that they don't start open motion so because this is also something we fear so if you go 327 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:14,400 through the coalition treaty and if you see a set is by European initiatives 328 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:20,480 the auto fear that there will be a lot of open motion around this and this is also why we need to 329 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:28,240 be still active in our watchdog roads this is a short break for our own cause thank you for 330 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:34,000 listening to the software feed-in podcast working for software feed-in and producing podcasts 331 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:40,960 cost money please consider supporting us with a donation on the fsfe.org/donate 332 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:48,640 and then the show knows and this is also why we need to be still active in our watchdog roads 333 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:54,720 we have seen this with data port phoenix back in the days in Germany so the very first attempt to 334 00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:00,160 come up with a so-called open source solution for public administrations we have eaten 335 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,240 checked for the licenses and figured out that this is not really open source what they are doing 336 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:13,760 but rather open motion so we hope we don't have to do this for for other solutions that the 337 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,040 German government so to say is coming up for so but that we make sure that this is really 338 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:24,000 Free Software what they are coming up with and that they continue the good past they just started 339 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:30,400 and that these ambitious goals that it needs to be set up are really ambitious and not watered 340 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:37,520 down in any way or that they end up with doing power politics and discussing people instead of 341 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:44,560 topics so this is something we need to make sure in this regard so this very first decision 342 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:50,080 basically so to remove yourself from this position was what's very strange to say 343 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:56,240 yeah absolutely I absolutely can understand especially in light that as you already mentioned 344 00:34:56,240 --> 00:35:02,160 we do not really know what will be happening and we will only find us out doing the 345 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,920 coalition of those three parties and doing the formation of the German government so 346 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:14,400 it's really curious to see what what are the next steps what is the scope that will be there 347 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:19,120 for the digital ministry and also how Free Software will stand be as Free Software 348 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:25,280 foundation Europe and especially you will probably pay a lot of attention there is this correct 349 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,520 can we say this to our listeners that you will be there and you will watch that 350 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:38,960 yes absolutely also I will do this together with my colleague Johannes who is also very 351 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:45,280 actively working in Germany on all of these topics so and we also organized this symposium in 352 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,560 in essence Germany on the public money public code topic again and he also follows a lot 353 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:56,480 the topic of open washing he also already gave a lot of talks on this so he is also an absolute expert 354 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:04,560 on this so and in this regard also that this is a continuous call to our community if you see 355 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,680 these cases of open washing or if you see any cases where you say well this is against the 356 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:15,120 goals of the software foundation Europe or the Free Software ecosystem let us know right 357 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:21,280 of the email to contact us if it is or reach out for us directly on social networks or when 358 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:28,080 we are on conferences so help us to shed light on on these topics so because this also helps us 359 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:35,840 explaining and the issues to decision makers and making sure that they come up with these ambitious 360 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:41,680 goals that are really contributing to a Free Software ecosystem and not something which is 361 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:48,800 like basically open wash Alex thank you so much for your work thank you so much for your time here 362 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:54,400 in the podcast and explaining the truth to us walking us through there this was really enlightening 363 00:36:54,400 --> 00:37:01,440 thank you very much thank you also thank you to our listeners for listening to this software 364 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:07,440 freedom podcast episode this was the software freedom podcast if you like this episode please 365 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,800 recommend it to your friends and write it stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that 366 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,800 explore the importance of software freedom and its impact on our digital life this podcast is 367 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:24,240 presented to you by the Free Software foundation Europe we are a charity that works on promoting 368 00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:31,200 software freedom if you like our work please consider supporting us with the nation 369 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:40,000 we depend on your support you find more information under fsfe.org/donate thank you so 370 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,240 much bye bye