Transcript of SFP#34: Policy and EU: Tech sovereignty debate in the EU
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SFP#034: Policy and EU: Tech sovereignty debate in the EU
1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,640 Before we start with the podcast, we would like to say thank you to all of you who support 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:12,760 the FSFE's work of money, working for software freedom and producing podcasts cost money. 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:18,440 Please consider supporting us with our nation under FSFE.org slash donate and in the show 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:19,440 notes. 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:24,720 As you implement and ultimately what our views are on these questions or what does technological 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:30,600 sovereignty mean to us, what activity needs to be undertaken and what do we want to see 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:36,240 to achieve this European technological sovereignty, but also what do we need to do when we look 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:52,360 at our infrastructure? 9 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,760 Let's get started. 10 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,160 Welcome to the software freedom podcast. 11 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,760 This podcast is presented to you by the free software foundation Europe. 12 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,960 We are a charity that empowers users to take control of technology and I'm Bonnie 13 00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:06,960 Mary. 14 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:10,000 Today I'm here with Alexander Zanda. 15 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:15,320 Alex is the senior policy consultant for the FSFE and as you have already heard in 16 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:20,640 previous episodes in his work for the FSFE, he monitors the current happenings in the 17 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:26,080 European Union and also pushes for the recognition of free software. 18 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:33,800 In this policy and it will episode, Alex and I will talk about the European technological 19 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,040 sovereignty and digital infrastructure. 20 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:38,040 Any? 21 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:44,880 Yeah, Alex, I'm sorry, I'm a bit, I have a bit of a flu or cold, I hope you can bear 22 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:45,880 with me. 23 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,200 At least we are not in the same room, so you can't get together, I'm so happy that you 24 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:51,200 can bear with me. 25 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,600 Yeah, thanks for having me again. 26 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,880 So I had to search in the internet what any is. 27 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,480 Could you explain this to us a bit? 28 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:06,720 I know now that it's own infrastructure procedure, but yeah, it's spelled in capital letters 29 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,880 so it got the feeling there is something bigger behind us. 30 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:15,280 Yeah, it's an initiative procedure and it's an initiative procedure from the European 31 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:16,280 Parliament. 32 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:23,560 The European Parliament can up with discussions, proposals, reports, initiatives, in this 33 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:29,520 case, own initiatives to address topics they want to talk about where they have the feeling 34 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:38,720 that, for example, the European Commission is not working enough on some things or basically 35 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:44,680 these reports are to nudge the Commission to get active and also on the same time to 36 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,600 present the views of the European Parliament towards the Commission. 37 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,880 So since the European Commission is the entity that proposes law in the European Union, 38 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,080 so you can basically say that the European Parliament is asking with this own initiative 39 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:06,080 procedure with this report for lawmaking which then should come from the European Commission. 40 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:13,000 So one could say this is preparatory work from the European Parliament to address a topic 41 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:18,920 in this case, European technological sovereignty and digital infrastructure where they believe 42 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:23,720 that they want to present some views and that the European Commission, like based on these 43 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:29,920 views, then later on should get active and propose law which is going in this direction. 44 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:39,960 So it's first basically a request to get active in a specific area to identify gaps in lawmaking 45 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:46,040 and also second to also already present some positions and tell the Commission the views 46 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:51,880 of the European Parliament in order to allow their majorities afterwards so that the Commission 47 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:57,320 is presenting something which also finds majorities later in the Parliament, for example. 48 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:03,960 So that's the procedure and so one could say so this is happening in the EATRA 49 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:09,480 committee in this case so that's the committee for industry and the members of this committee 50 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:16,120 and the Parliament said we have some issues with sovereignty and our digital infrastructure. 51 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,040 We need to get active here and that's why they decided to write a report. 52 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,560 This was happening now so the report, the Trump report was presented in the European Parliament 53 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:30,600 and now the European Parliament discusses the proposal of the rapporteur and then we come up as 54 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,800 final report and push this towards member states and the Commission to get active in this area. 55 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,000 All right thank you very much one question regarding the any process. 56 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:48,120 Does this often lead to a law then or is this most often then without any effect? 57 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:55,640 No it's it normally leads to something so the latest example we all know is for example the AI 58 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:02,040 Act so the European Parliament started to work on the topic of AI very very early many many years ago. 59 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:07,640 They started to do this with this initiative report they even created their own committee for this 60 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:12,920 just to work on this topic and to present. So the position of the European Parliament 61 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:18,840 already to the Commission while they were working on their own proposal so it's very common 62 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:24,280 that the European Parliament gets active and tells the Commission where they want to see law 63 00:05:24,280 --> 00:05:31,240 however the Commission do not have to react but in terms of goodwill and democracy normally the 64 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:36,680 Commission picks these reports up they are also part of the debate so they are also sitting in 65 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:42,360 the European Parliament giving statements to the report giving their views on the report so they 66 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:50,280 also already interact during this procedure with the European Parliament and normally it won't be 67 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:57,160 the case that the Commission then proposes a law with exactly the same terms or the exactly 68 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:02,680 the same scope but normally they come up with laws where they pick up these demands and requests 69 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:09,560 from the European Parliament and transfer this then into a law proposal so it's it's not that this 70 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:17,400 work is not considered by anyone it's it's definitely a useful procedure so to say first of all to 71 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:22,760 to find already positions in the Parliament and it's also good for the European Commission to 72 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:29,240 already learn before they start drafting a law what could be potential debates in the Parliament 73 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:35,480 what could be potential demands so that they can already pick them up in their specific drafts 74 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:41,320 and if you look at the European Commission's work program and their agenda of the next term 75 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:47,320 so the next five years it's definitely something they also want to work on so they also talk 76 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:53,000 about sovereignty they also talk about digital infrastructure and they also talk a lot about 77 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:58,040 how to protect this how a European answer to this could look like in particular in these changing 78 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:04,600 times and yeah it's to be expected that the European Commission will also propose law on the topic 79 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,320 that the European Parliament works on at the moment so it's it there will be definitely a follow-up 80 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:17,960 I think all right before we dive into the procedure or the report you also mentioned a word 81 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:25,000 little perter and now that this is the person who is active on this but I also guess they're 82 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:33,240 more than one person could you briefly outline who is behind this any now absolutely so every 83 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:38,920 report in the European Parliament be it such a own initiative report or be it a report on a 84 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:44,680 Commission proposal like in the Cyber Resilience Act or in the Copyright Debate so every every 85 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:51,160 file every report gets a so-called repertoire so this is the responsible person in the European 86 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:57,480 Parliament leading the debate for the European Parliament until it gets into the plenary and gets 87 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:04,360 a vote so this is basically the person who comes up with a very first draft so basically if it's 88 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:10,840 a Commission proposal an answer to the Commission proposal so one could say or in this own initiative 89 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:17,320 report so the very first draft the world sees is written by this repertoire so and then this 90 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:23,400 repertoire is coming from a specific group so it could be a social democrat it can be a green one 91 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:30,600 it can be a conservative so every group has so so to say the right to send reperters to reports 92 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:37,160 but as that there can be only one repertoire but the other groups also send so-called shadow 93 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:44,920 reperters the shadow reperters are then the leading persons for this file from a specific group so 94 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:50,600 ultimately what you have you have a leading repertoire coming from a group and then from all the 95 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:55,320 other groups that are in the European Parliament they send a shadow repertoire so that there's 96 00:08:55,320 --> 00:09:00,760 basically one person from each group working on this file and it's being responsible for this file 97 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:07,400 so and these are the most important persons if you want to yeah lobby around these documents or 98 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:13,480 reports and if you want to reach out you normally reach out to the offices of the reperters or shadow 99 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:21,720 reperters because they are the ones guiding with the debate they are coming up with amendments and 100 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,600 negotiate these amendments to come up with so-called compromise amendments they are the ones who 101 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:32,520 prepare the voting list so they advise how the how the whole group should vote on this and this 102 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:38,600 is how basically a position is formed in the European Parliament then the committee votes on it 103 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,760 and from the committee it is transferred to the plenary where then all members of the European 104 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,720 Parliament vote on this and to organize this they have these so-called reperters and shadow 105 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:53,400 reperters who help to find the compromise on the text and to help to find majority so that's 106 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:58,680 basically their role so this means they're very close to the text they negotiate text they come 107 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:04,600 up with new ideas they find majority so that's why these are very important roles and positions 108 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:11,160 in this procedure however also other members of the Parliament and members of other groups can 109 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:17,480 also contribute to these reports by amendments so they can say I want to delete this part I want to 110 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:22,760 add a new word I want to add a completely new idea and all of these amendments yeah they need 111 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,920 to be discussed they need to be analyzed they need to be streamlined and they need to find 112 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:33,960 majorities and this is the work of these reperters so you can basically say it's comparable to a 113 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:41,400 share part in other Parliament or assistance in other Parliament that help to come up with a final 114 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:48,280 text so they have a very important role since they are basically the ones who are thriving a file 115 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:55,160 so one could say so those are the people you talk to when you want to have free software in there 116 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:00,520 absolutely so I definitely talk to them I also talk to others so as said there are sometimes 117 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:05,720 also other members who are active in a specific file so you not only have one person working on 118 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:10,600 digitally topics you have a few and you want to reach out to all of them however the most 119 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:17,720 influential person in a file is normally the rapporteur and so that's why it's so that you should 120 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,200 at least talk to the rapporteurs and the shadow rapporteurs let's say it like this and you might 121 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:27,880 also want to talk to others who contribute and you see this that they take part in the Parliamentary 122 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:33,560 debate so they speak up they present their position so this is a way where you learn about their 123 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:40,040 engagement and but also you see this when amendments are tabled so that they are also 124 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,080 other members other than the rapporteurs who table amendments who want to modify the text who 125 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:50,040 want to improve the text and these are basically normally the people that are involved in the debate 126 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:55,640 and these are the people you want to talk to until the moment there is a vote when there is a vote 127 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:00,200 then this is activity for all members and that's a moment where you might want to talk to all 128 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,520 members and tell them vote in this direction vote in that direction because of this and this reason 129 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:11,800 but until the moment there is a vote you normally talk with this group of people who are we 130 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,360 working on this file and normally do not talk that much with people who are not even in the committee 131 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:23,800 for example all right thank you so much for outlining this now I would say we can dive into the topic 132 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:31,240 directly what's the European technological sovereignty and digital infrastructure any about 133 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:38,440 and yeah who was behind this I mean in in in general one could say the the European Parliament 134 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:44,760 also like many other actors these days came to the conclusion that we talk a lot about 135 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:51,080 sovereignty we talk a lot about technological sovereignty also we talk a lot about our infrastructure 136 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:57,000 and the question is like what does it mean so how does this sovereignty should look like so we 137 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,320 have some views and we already presented them quite often on what we do believe what 138 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:06,840 sovereignty means digital sovereignty but there are also others that have other views on this term 139 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:13,320 so this term is not defined it's very vague and we are using it quite often but we do not really 140 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:18,520 know what it means and this also means we do not know as European Union and what to do precisely 141 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,960 so we do some piecework here some piecework there we might label as as something towards 142 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:29,080 sovereignty but if this is really the case we don't know since it's a lot of piecework and there's 143 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:36,520 not really a streamline concept for what is digital sovereignty and how do we achieve it what kind 144 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:42,600 of actions do we need this does it need slow making does it need funding all of these questions 145 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:48,600 they are not really addressed by these days however we have many actors who fill this world with 146 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,560 ideas and maybe already activities but nothing is streamlined in particular if you look at the 147 00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:59,800 European Union 27 member states 27 opinions on something so there is definitely the need 148 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:05,160 to define this term a bit more and also to come up with dedicated actions towards this 149 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:12,840 so and these are questions that always arise when we talk about sovereignty and the European 150 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:20,040 way these days towards digitalization so are there things we need to watch out for in this 151 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:27,480 changing world and what does it mean for us so and in this and as part of this huge debate this 152 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,520 industry committee and that's also important so they come specifically with a few from industry 153 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:38,760 policy so that's why it's in the industry committee right they want to address these questions 154 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:45,240 this their specific point of view and so they decided as a committee for all groups 155 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:51,240 proceeding together and they decided we want to give an answer to this question so from our 156 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:56,600 perspective from the perspective from the industry and research committee we want to tell 157 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,680 as you can parliament and ultimately what our views are on these questions or what does 158 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:09,080 technological sovereignty mean to us what activity needs to be undertaken and and what do we 159 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:15,000 want to see to achieve this European technological sovereignty but also what do we need to do when we 160 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:21,880 look at our infrastructure so and it's a pretty planked paper in the beginning since as it's the 161 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:27,560 own initiative there's nothing where they respond to but where they pretty much fill a plank 162 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:33,880 paper with their ideas and this is organized now we are coming again to the to the procedures and 163 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:40,600 the rapporteurs might so important this is organized by giving to report to one rapporteur 164 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,800 and this rapporteur then writes a draft and based on the draft the other groups and meant to this 165 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:52,120 report so they they say are we this one is missing or this one is over the top we need to change 166 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:59,000 this and we want to have I don't know improvements here and there and this is then how normally 167 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:04,040 such a report is formed however since we have new majorities in the European parliament since the 168 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:10,760 last term we also have seen that these procedures are not used as they have been used in last 169 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:17,800 terms since we have this far right majority if the EPP goes with them and that's something yeah 170 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:25,080 we as FSFE here but also I mean members in the parliament try to come up with majorities that 171 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:31,960 are not formed with far right members or extremist members so and the thing is however since they 172 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:37,960 are elected they also get reports and in this case the rapporteur for this report for this own 173 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:45,560 initiative procedure is a French fascist so and this leads to the problem that's basically 174 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:55,160 from the procedure wise this person it's she's she's called knafos are knafos from the ESN 175 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:03,080 group she presented a report and so now the question from a procedure wise is do we really want to 176 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:10,120 amend to this report basically if we are for example liberal screens or left ones so and that's 177 00:17:10,120 --> 00:17:15,960 I can imagine that would be the normal procedure but nobody wants to do this so what happened is 178 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:23,720 that they let the summer person write a report and then in the meantime the other groups came 179 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:29,880 together these shadow rapporteurs I was just referring to and the progressive ones came together 180 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:36,360 and thought how can we find a majority without her and how can we still work on the topic since 181 00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:40,840 the topic is important and since the questions that come from from this report are important and 182 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:47,880 need to be addressed what can we do so and their solution is that they basically came up with 183 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:55,640 amendments that say to every point what summer says delete and proposed new text so what they do 184 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:02,120 basically is to say to whatever she said we want to delete this and we want to replace this with 185 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:08,040 other text so and this needs to be ultimately voted and could let to a situation that ultimately 186 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:15,480 there will be a report which is still under the name of Zara Knafo but that's not a single word 187 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:21,000 from her still in this report so that could be a solution and then the question is so from a 188 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:27,960 procedure wise what could happen is that she then says this is far away from what I think and so 189 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:35,640 I will list for my name from the report and then it's an unnamed each report coming from the 190 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:41,480 each committee with a majority without far right so that's basically the political game what's 191 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:48,280 happening in this specific file we are addressing that also addresses pretty much many topics we 192 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:54,360 are working on and that's why it's not a very normal procedure so to say so first of all it's 193 00:18:54,360 --> 00:19:01,560 this own initiative procedure certainly we have this new majorities so we had a far right member 194 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:07,400 as a repertoire so in the from the procedure already a lot is different than to 195 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:15,400 normal finds files we worked on in the past and that's why next to content related questions like 196 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,480 that's an open source for example play a role in this sovereignty question or not 197 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:27,080 is basically also in the middle of some other questions that are around for example 198 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,280 who is a repertoire for this report and how do we find maturity so and that's something one needs 199 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:37,320 to know when we talk about this report so it's not just about content here but it's also about 200 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:43,160 how do we find majorities and will there be on the topics we work on for example the topic of 201 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:48,680 sovereignty this is a topic where there will be a progressive majority or will there be a far 202 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:55,480 right majority so there are a couple of questions that are not content related but that are really 203 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:01,720 important for the future of the questions of sovereignty but also on Europe in general I think 204 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:09,640 yeah I can imagine like I now I have to question why was she handed this any why was it passed 205 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:16,200 on to her do you know that by any chance so I mean a set of these are elected members so they 206 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:22,840 have the same rights than any other group and this also means that workload is distributed 207 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:28,680 between the members of the parliament so basically they are all equal and I think that's a good 208 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:35,160 thing for a parliament in general but this also means that they yeah if they want to work they 209 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:42,680 are allowed to work so and this also means it can't be that reports are only going always to the 210 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:48,680 big groups because that would mean the majority always get all the reports and that's a bit unfair 211 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,320 also if you look for example to the Greens or the Liberals or smaller groups that also want to have 212 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,600 a saying the back in the days we remember the data protection reform was the repertoire was a 213 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:06,440 green repertoire so it's definitely important and needed that also smaller groups get fired and 214 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:14,840 they do this by betting points so normally it is the case that yeah based on the strengths of a 215 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:22,200 group you you get some points to bet on reports so and by thus you can basically say as a group 216 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:27,560 I'm particularly interested so for example take the Greens it's very obvious they want to work 217 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:33,320 on topics of environmental questions so they will use a lot of their points to to get reports 218 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:40,040 that are related to their topics they work on I understand topics that are important for the party 219 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:47,240 like they use their points they have to get to get these kind of reports I'm not able to get 220 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:53,480 every report for themselves exactly so and it's so it's it's to bring some balance and to let 221 00:21:53,480 --> 00:22:00,280 others also the chance to work on topics they are interested in so and in this case the far right 222 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,720 group here sent they want to bet some points and they want to get this report and work on this 223 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:10,840 topic of solidarity and I also think that something we have seen in other countries for example 224 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:18,280 in the in the hearing in the German Bundestag where there's also the AFD so a far right party that 225 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:25,640 also showed their strong interest in the question of sovereignty, technical sovereignty and they 226 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,120 I mean have a completely different view than us on the topic but they see it as definitely as a 227 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:34,840 topic they want to work on so and that's something we see in the far right in general they want to 228 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:42,200 work on digital topics and they want to talk about sovereignty and so this makes it slightly 229 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:49,080 difficult for us so to say since they are an important actor since they can bring a majority at 230 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,760 least in the European Parliament and that's something we fear and that's something we should have 231 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:59,480 on the radar and I do believe we don't want to talk about sovereignty in a nationalism way but 232 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:05,080 more in a European and global way and this is yeah a fundamental question we are discussing at 233 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:10,040 the moment and that's why it's so important where my priorities are going and one could also say 234 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:15,560 this is basically a test one we see here since this is the very first file in the European Parliament 235 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:23,000 where we see a fashion stripper tour it's also happening in our space and there will be law-making 236 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,920 upcoming by the European Commission in this direction and so this file is basically a very 237 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:36,280 important test run in order to see where majorities goes and in these majorities how they value 238 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,240 open source for example if we then talk about our topics so I mean worst case is that the 239 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:51,080 fascists come up with proposals for open source that are very national-centric while the so-called 240 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:56,440 progressive majority don't come up with anything on open source but they talk about for example 241 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:01,560 openness or something like this so and this is what I mean so it prints us often in situations 242 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,440 where we have to be very fine tuned in our activities also in our lobby activities and where we have 243 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:14,200 to be very careful whom we support when and why and what this then ultimately means so it's 244 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:20,680 definitely not a good idea to go for short wins in this term so to say but to have a long term 245 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:26,200 vision on where to go with whom we want to go and why we want to go there and so this is 246 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:34,200 so to say other than in other files where we could basically say we go with the majority we get 247 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,320 I do believe that in this term it will be definitely different and we have to watch out 248 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:46,920 for majorities very more than we did in the last term all right so thank you so much for the 249 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,880 background and thank you so much for yeah giving us some introduction there how is 250 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:57,960 open source seen in this report because actually I could not find a term at all I mean that's a 251 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:06,360 thing so I mean the knuckle person so the repertoire did not propose anything on open source so she 252 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:12,600 seems to not have this on the radar or she seems not to to see open source as a enabler for 253 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:19,400 sovereignty however if you then check the amendments there you can see that there are people 254 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:26,040 having open source on the radar and that they also want to bring it in this report so but here 255 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:33,080 again we see that there is so to say a slight shift so in the in the past we have already seen 256 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:39,880 that in particular conservatives and liberals they have a hard time to use the word open source 257 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:46,600 and promoted in a way that it's better than proprietary software for say in easy words 258 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:52,360 so they want to go with terms that don't discriminate towards others one could say 259 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:59,000 and with this they do believe that giving advantages to open source that this would be 260 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:04,360 unnecessary interference with the market for to say and that's my day I hesitate to come up with 261 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:09,640 these kinds of sayings so even if you have from the German conservatives for example a strong 262 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,440 statement a party statement where this is going in the direction of public money public codes 263 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:22,360 we don't see this reflected European might so they value open source they do believe that open source 264 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:29,080 is good however they won't go into the market and give somehow advantages to open source by 265 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,880 coming up with sayings like public money public code however they see the benefits so that's 266 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,920 that's something we also need to see so and for example you could also see in the cyber resilience 267 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:44,360 act so they don't want to harm this market so they came up with exemptions for open source so 268 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:49,960 this is what they do but they they are hesitant in order to they're over promoted so to say 269 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:56,680 in from from their perspective from their view so and this also means we had also in the past 270 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:04,040 other majorities social democrats decrees also the left ones that are very progressive when 271 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:09,640 it comes to to our ideas and that mainly follow our ideas on public money public code for example 272 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:15,480 right and that would they would be happy to to come up with such amendments and proposals 273 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:21,560 and we have also already seen in the past that these votes goes in this direction but EPP is hesitant 274 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:28,760 together with them so they abstain or even vote against so but since there are these new 275 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:34,600 majorities the EPP can decide with whom they go basically they can go with far right majority or 276 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:40,440 they can go with the progressive majority but this also means that they can bring in a lot of pressure 277 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,880 into this progressive group since they can always say if you don't want then we go to another 278 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:51,480 group where we already have a majority and the progressive part on the other hand don't have 279 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:57,400 this option so they can't create pressure on the EPP for example and say look if you don't 280 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:03,640 vote with us we find another majority since it is not there anymore so and this gives a very very 281 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:11,400 strong position to the EPP coming up with like a lot of texts that they want and they are the 282 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:17,080 progressive parts of the parliament have to eat it so to say since else they would go to a 283 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:23,000 fascist majority so and that's the that's a piggy point what I what I meant in the beginning 284 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:29,640 where I said we have to yeah watch out and see where majorities can go so and sometimes it might 285 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:37,240 be the case that we lose open source to not have open source in a fascist majority all the 286 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,280 other way around right so and this is this is quite difficult and it's challenging however 287 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:49,720 also from the amendments what we can see is and that's already also something where we can see 288 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:58,120 that the EPP is not only pressuring this progressive majority but also basically talking to them 289 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:04,440 and and value this input so what the what the EPP does and this so they came up with with a group 290 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:10,440 of SMD and Liberals so the the Conservatives the Social Democrats and the Liberals together 291 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,960 as a group amended to this report and by thus they also already show that they have a majority 292 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:22,600 so and they amended in a way that they talk about openness and interoperability and common 293 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:28,680 standards so what they don't compromise us basically it's about compromises also in words 294 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,440 so it's pretty much compromising in words so I mean if you take openness in the 295 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:38,040 availability and common standards it's very unlikely that you will achieve this without open source 296 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:44,280 or free software right or open standards it's it's it's it's it's it's nearly impossible I'd say 297 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:51,720 however they are afraid of using the term open source the only ones bringing up 298 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:58,040 amendments with the term open source are the greens and the left ones so these those groups also 299 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:05,160 precisely added amendments on the term open source and and want to be clear on this so to say 300 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:12,200 and that's a situation where we are so on the one hand we could bend the the terms openness 301 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:18,440 interoperability and common standards to a way that we say that this is basically open source 302 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,800 or we nudge them as long as possible that they say it and I do believe that's important that 303 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:30,200 they say it and this is definitely something we do but it could be that the the the EPP 304 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:37,640 won't take this and this is then also what I meant with the test one right so if this test 305 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:46,520 one we can see how far they go with the wording where the problems with the wording so what could 306 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:53,000 be potential outcomes and majorities and where are so to say red lines for them and this will be 307 00:30:53,000 --> 00:31:00,600 particularly interesting in the in the next weeks to see if the term of open source 308 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:06,840 can find its way in this report because I do believe if we talk about European technological 309 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:13,000 sovereignty we have to talk about open source at the same time you see a debate at the moment 310 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:20,200 it's just called by European and this is also something what we fear is that people do not 311 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:25,640 understand that open source is global so and it's good that it's global and there is no European 312 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,920 open source or US open source or Chinese open source but there's only global open source 313 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:37,800 and this is also something I think for the next term what we need to explain is sovereignty is 314 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,760 only possible with free software and free software is global and it's good that it's global 315 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:48,440 so and I think these are the two main pain points so to say in the debate we need to discuss 316 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:54,600 in the next five years and then we need to find majorities and for this precisely this report but 317 00:31:54,600 --> 00:32:00,360 we are discussing now is a very good test run where we can see a lot and then also adapt our 318 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:06,840 strategies and ideas how we talk to the people how we convince them once we once we bring in some 319 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:14,520 lighting this is a short break for our own cause thank you for listening to the software 320 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:22,120 podcast working for software freedom and producing podcasts costs money please consider supporting 321 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:33,640 us with a donation on the fsfe.org slash donate and then the show notes I see so this is very 322 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:39,800 interesting to watch over the next weeks will you care when I own this absolutely absolutely and 323 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:46,520 we try to influence it yeah so that's that's also important and I mean I'm sure we will put the 324 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:51,560 information to the file in the in the show notes so feel free to also reach out to the members 325 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,600 of the parliament so you can see the repertoire and the shadow recorders the amendments are also 326 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:02,200 linked so you can also see who tabled what and you are absolutely free to reach out to them 327 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:09,320 email addresses are easy to find and ask them to add open source to the report and to connect the 328 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:15,240 topic of serenity with the topic of open source and be more clearer on the terms of openness in 329 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:22,280 the availability and standards so it needs to be open source in the availability and open standards 330 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:28,280 that are compatible with open source so I think if we have this then we have a good report 331 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,600 even if you see it's going in the right direction and they understood that inner 332 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,120 availability is key in particular when we talk about European administrations 333 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,360 but the only thing I'm asking myself why don't you then just clearly say in the availability 334 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:47,880 is only possible with this open source because else I mean how should this happen I don't know 335 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,280 that's what I'm asking myself as well I'm like why are they so afraid of the spread but the 336 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,320 important thing is that we reach out to them and tell them that we as people think that this is 337 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:04,360 very important absolutely and as if we will follow this file and also like continue 338 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,160 than the work on this serenity terms so it's really just a starting point for the next five years 339 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:16,040 so we this the topic will also be done about funding about how do we support movements 340 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:20,680 and this is then also important where the money goes for example right so even if you have this 341 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:26,040 report there will be a way more questions that need to be addressed in the next five years and 342 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:32,120 we will be around and keep you updated in this podcast but also on fsfe.org and other channels 343 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,760 thank you so much for your time thank you so much for walking us through this report 344 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:43,000 thanks for having me this was the software freedom podcast if you like this episode 345 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:48,920 please recommend it to your friends and rate it stay tuned for more inspiring conversations 346 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,640 that explore the importance of software freedom and its impact on our digital lives 347 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,960 this podcast is presented to you by the free software foundation europe we are a charity 348 00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:05,800 that works on promoting software freedom if you like our work please consider supporting us 349 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:12,840 for the nation you find more information under fsfe.org slash donate thank you so much for listening 350 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:29,640 thank you so much for your time