Transcript of SFP#8: How to tell my mother that Free Software can cost money?
This is a transcript created with the Free Software tool Whisper. For more information and feedback reach out to podcast@fsfe.org
WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:06.000 Dear listeners, I regularly talk to my mother about software freedom and general misunderstandings 00:06.000 --> 00:11.080 in this area, and this is why we had the idea for this podcast. 00:11.080 --> 00:16.200 We thought about the title and the implications it might have long and hard. 00:16.200 --> 00:22.700 To be clear, we do not believe that mothers or women need an explanation on technical 00:22.700 --> 00:27.280 topics more than fathers or men in general. 00:27.280 --> 00:32.160 For people who do not want to identify with any of those changes. 00:32.160 --> 00:39.000 But we wanted to talk about something real and not something invented just for the podcast. 00:39.000 --> 00:44.240 That's why we decided to do the podcast this way for all of you out there who sometimes 00:44.240 --> 00:49.240 struggle to explain their parents who are not that deep into technology what software 00:49.240 --> 00:50.760 freedom is. 00:50.760 --> 01:10.120 Welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. 01:10.120 --> 01:14.320 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe, where a charity 01:14.320 --> 01:17.560 that empowers users to control technology. 01:17.560 --> 01:20.760 I'm Matthias Kirschner, the president of the Free Software Foundation Europe, and I'm 01:20.760 --> 01:23.720 doing this podcast together with my colleague, Bernie Merring. 01:23.720 --> 01:24.720 Hello, Bernie. 01:24.720 --> 01:25.720 Hello, Matthias. 01:25.720 --> 01:29.120 Today, we are doing a special episode. 01:29.120 --> 01:34.280 We are doing an episode about how to tell my mother that free software can cost money. 01:34.280 --> 01:41.160 This idea came through our conversation because I regularly explain my mother, my passion 01:41.160 --> 01:45.760 about free software, and also talk to her about some calm misunderstandings. 01:45.760 --> 01:51.160 So we decided to do a special podcast episode for everyone out there explaining their parents 01:51.160 --> 01:53.000 how free software works. 01:53.000 --> 01:54.760 And that's what we will do. 01:54.760 --> 01:58.040 The first question was can free software cost money? 01:58.040 --> 02:02.480 How would you explain that free software can cost money? 02:02.480 --> 02:07.840 Hmm, difficult because I mean for myself, the situation was a little bit different. 02:07.840 --> 02:14.240 As when I started with free software was in the late 1990s and early 2000s then, I had 02:14.240 --> 02:17.520 to pay money to get free software. 02:17.520 --> 02:25.160 Like I paid money to get some Knollinux CDs or DVDs and floppies and I pulled some money 02:25.160 --> 02:31.640 with friends and we bought them and then we either gave them around so that one of us can 02:31.640 --> 02:36.920 do the update, the other one can then do the update or when I had then a CD burner, I 02:36.920 --> 02:41.280 could then use that to duplicate the CD images. 02:41.280 --> 02:46.520 So we didn't have to wait till one of us was finished with it or if someone had to reinstall 02:46.520 --> 02:48.040 it again. 02:48.040 --> 02:57.480 So I think my mother, she saw very early that I had the need for money to get those CDs 02:57.480 --> 03:03.720 as we didn't have like fast internet connection at the time and so yeah, but if we go back 03:03.720 --> 03:09.000 and think about like how would I explain the topic now, I always first explain like 03:09.000 --> 03:10.880 what is free software. 03:10.880 --> 03:18.840 So yes, free software costs money and second, what is it that defines free software and 03:18.840 --> 03:24.920 then I always, I would explain like that free software gives you the right to use, study, 03:24.920 --> 03:30.840 share and improve the software and all of that has nothing to do with the costs. 03:30.840 --> 03:37.120 So it's just, it's important that the software enables you to use the software for any purpose 03:37.120 --> 03:44.360 that everybody, your mother, your father, other friends, colleagues and so on that they 03:44.360 --> 03:50.280 can use it for whatever they want to, second, that they can study how the software works. 03:50.280 --> 03:56.800 So if they want to, they could understand that a lot of people from you talk, they might 03:56.800 --> 04:01.600 not be interested in that, but they also benefit from other people looking into this. 04:01.600 --> 04:07.000 So friends of them who are more into technology, they would like to find out something they 04:07.000 --> 04:12.120 can better help others and explain them how technology works. 04:12.120 --> 04:15.800 Then that the, that you can share the software with others. 04:15.800 --> 04:24.880 So if, for example, you got some Knolynux city that you can pass it on to your mother without 04:24.880 --> 04:29.000 having to consider anything else about that. 04:29.000 --> 04:34.880 So you can just do that and that you can also make changes to the software and improve 04:34.880 --> 04:39.360 the software and adopt it to the need of whoever wants to use the software. 04:39.360 --> 04:44.320 So if your mother would like to have something different, you might be able to help her and 04:44.320 --> 04:48.320 make some small modifications to the software so she's able to do that. 04:48.320 --> 04:56.200 If it's a company, that's a bit more you have to do to make, to fit to their needs maybe. 04:56.200 --> 04:59.840 So yeah, but, but that's something which is always possible for the software. 04:59.840 --> 05:02.600 So it's use, study, share and improve. 05:02.600 --> 05:10.440 And none of that is restricting if you can or if you should pay for the software. 05:10.440 --> 05:12.200 This was a really good answer. 05:12.200 --> 05:14.520 I did it a bit different. 05:14.520 --> 05:20.120 I just explained that you could also donate money for a free software and there are loads 05:20.120 --> 05:27.600 of projects out there which do need to help from people using the software and then I also 05:27.600 --> 05:29.080 went to the improved part. 05:29.080 --> 05:32.560 I explained to her, do you want to have a special feature? 05:32.600 --> 05:34.880 And this would be only for you. 05:34.880 --> 05:38.720 You could also pay somebody else to implement it. 05:38.720 --> 05:47.360 Yeah, so yeah, I mean, I, I rather preferred when I, when I explained it to others to talk 05:47.360 --> 05:50.000 about voluntary payment. 05:50.000 --> 05:56.440 If, if you don't have to pay for it, because you, you get quite a lot in return for it. 05:56.440 --> 05:58.200 You, you get, you get a software for it. 05:58.200 --> 06:02.760 It's not just that you donate money and they do something for someone else with it, but 06:02.760 --> 06:04.840 you benefit from it. 06:04.840 --> 06:11.640 And so, so I, I mean, the FSFE from the beginning, when we were founded in 2001, we encouraged 06:11.640 --> 06:15.600 people to pay for free software. 06:15.600 --> 06:21.240 Because we believe that it's important for the further development of free software and 06:21.240 --> 06:25.680 we think it's also for, for each individual out there, it's important that they give money 06:25.760 --> 06:32.680 to those who value their freedom and less money to those programmers who write software 06:32.680 --> 06:35.080 which restricts their freedom. 06:35.080 --> 06:40.480 So it's, whenever you have the possibility to pay for free software and you have the 06:40.480 --> 06:46.080 money to do so, we encourage people to actually pay. 06:46.080 --> 06:52.360 There are some, some other possibilities, like I mean, sometimes we get, we get questions 06:52.400 --> 06:58.560 like, oh, here in this, for example, in, in this app market, you have to pay for the 06:58.560 --> 06:59.560 software. 06:59.560 --> 07:01.280 So this cannot be free software. 07:01.280 --> 07:04.760 Well, that's, that's not the case. 07:04.760 --> 07:10.560 There is free software in app stores and you, you have to pay to download it. 07:10.560 --> 07:14.920 There are also other ways to somehow get the software, compile it yourself, put it on, 07:14.920 --> 07:16.480 on your, on your mobile. 07:16.480 --> 07:21.080 But actually, it's a very easy way for you to support the further development that you 07:21.080 --> 07:24.080 can also benefit from free software in the future. 07:24.080 --> 07:30.920 So I would always encourage people to, to pay for free software if it's somehow possible. 07:30.920 --> 07:39.440 Also for, like, my, for, for parents, it's, it's important to, to understand that, I mean, 07:39.440 --> 07:44.120 when, when I talk about that with my parents or with friends and relatives, I don't want 07:44.120 --> 07:48.120 them to have the impression that I am, I am working for software which everybody can 07:48.120 --> 07:52.640 just use free, of course, that's not, that's not what, what, what I'm working for. 07:52.640 --> 07:57.800 I'm working for software which, which respects the user's freedom, which is important for 07:57.800 --> 08:03.560 our society, which helps us to, to have a more just society in which I want to live 08:03.560 --> 08:09.240 in and not society where everybody gets everything for, yeah, great is. 08:09.240 --> 08:16.000 So that's why I make this point very often in conversations. 08:16.000 --> 08:22.400 As we now have talked about paying for free software, how do I pay the money for free software? 08:22.400 --> 08:24.920 So I mean, there, there are different ways. 08:24.920 --> 08:31.840 So in general, it's, it's not different than, uh, than with proprietary software. 08:31.840 --> 08:36.800 The only difference is that with free software, you don't pay for a license. 08:36.800 --> 08:38.680 But all the other means are the same. 08:38.680 --> 08:45.000 So for example, uh, you can pay for, for the medium, like, I did, uh, when, when I was, 08:45.000 --> 08:49.800 when, when I started with a software that you, yeah, that you, you buy the CDs, you go, 08:49.800 --> 08:55.640 uh, you either buy them online, uh, order them somewhere or, uh, you go to a book shop. 08:55.640 --> 09:00.800 That was also possible and you buy a box with, uh, with a book with the documentation and 09:00.800 --> 09:03.440 then some kind of Linux CDs and floppies. 09:03.440 --> 09:05.600 So, uh, that's something you can do. 09:05.600 --> 09:10.880 Like you could also go out and do the same with proprietary software, just that the software 09:10.880 --> 09:16.440 is then not respecting, uh, your freedom, uh, and with free software, you get the whole 09:16.440 --> 09:21.520 package and you are able to, you study, share and improve everything which is in this box. 09:21.520 --> 09:28.360 So the, the other possibility is that, for example, when you are using a mobile phone, uh, 09:28.360 --> 09:34.760 and you, you go to the, to the, uh, to the software where you install your, your apps, several 09:34.760 --> 09:39.200 of them, they have the possibility to also pay for the software there. 09:39.200 --> 09:41.360 So you pay before installation. 09:41.360 --> 09:47.840 That's, uh, that's true for, for proprietary app, um, app stores where you then can, can 09:47.840 --> 09:53.360 just pay two euros, something or five euros, something and then you can easily install 09:53.360 --> 09:59.840 the software on your, on your mobile and that's also, um, more and more possible with, uh, 09:59.840 --> 10:05.480 free software, app markets, for example, eftroid, uh, they, they had some option in there 10:05.560 --> 10:10.680 which enables you to donate and then now they are at the moment also improving this more 10:10.680 --> 10:16.600 and more that you can have certain payment options to, uh, give back money to, to those 10:16.600 --> 10:23.080 developing those apps. So that's one other part you, you pay before installation because I mean, 10:23.080 --> 10:28.920 you could also somehow, uh, install the software on your mobile phone in another way where you 10:28.920 --> 10:33.800 wouldn't have to pay for it, but you can do it more easily by, by paying for it and thereby 10:33.800 --> 10:40.280 also supporting the software developers in the long run. Then there's the possibility that you 10:40.280 --> 10:47.080 could give money, uh, to someone explaining the software to you like, uh, doing an educational 10:47.080 --> 10:52.920 course, uh, so that you better understand the software, uh, they developed, raise your questions 10:52.920 --> 10:57.720 there. I mean, you, you could go to seminar or an online seminar or an in-person seminar 10:57.800 --> 11:04.280 and pay for this. That they explain you, for example, how to use game and in-scape, uh, for, uh, 11:04.280 --> 11:10.120 improving your, your pictures or creating some graphics. That's something you can, you can do. 11:10.760 --> 11:16.680 There is, uh, of course, and also in the commercial area, you can also, uh, send your employees to 11:16.680 --> 11:24.200 one of those trainings. Then there are, uh, possibilities like that that you pay for, for the hardware, 11:24.200 --> 11:29.080 which is then combined with the software and thereby you also support, uh, the development of 11:29.080 --> 11:36.520 free software. For example, in the past, uh, I, I bought, uh, network attached storage. So one of 11:36.520 --> 11:42.840 those boxes, which you can have at home and then make sure that, uh, the music is shared with your, 11:42.840 --> 11:49.160 with your family again or the pictures you took from, from, uh, from family members is stored 11:49.240 --> 11:55.080 there in a more secure way than if it's just on some USB drive. And, uh, you, you can buy some 11:55.080 --> 11:59.800 out there, which are pre-installed with free software. And by doing that, you also support the 11:59.800 --> 12:06.200 for the development there. Another one is that, uh, when you buy, uh, laptop, which is pre-installed 12:06.200 --> 12:12.520 with, uh, with Linux or another free operating system, you're also supporting this. Or, uh, in the 12:12.520 --> 12:19.400 past, I also bought, uh, like, and it was called the OpenMocco, which was one of the, uh, the first, 12:19.400 --> 12:24.600 uh, free, free software phone out there. And thereby also supporting developers who are working in 12:24.600 --> 12:30.200 this area. So when, when you buy a hard, uh, certain hardware, people might also benefit from that. 12:31.000 --> 12:37.960 The, the other possibility then is that you, you buy certain services, which, uh, are run by the 12:37.960 --> 12:44.920 developers of the software. So, uh, for example, you could also set up your own backup, backup 12:44.920 --> 12:51.560 storage somewhere, install your own server and so on. But that's very complicated. And most likely, 12:51.560 --> 12:56.920 I mean, my parents wouldn't do that. But I could encourage them to, to pay for a backup service, 12:57.800 --> 13:02.440 from, from companies whom I know that they are also involved in free software development. And 13:02.440 --> 13:08.600 they are then providers out there who are also heavily, uh, developing the tools you, you would 13:08.600 --> 13:16.040 also else use to make your backups and encrypt that fashion. So that's one, one thing I, I always 13:16.040 --> 13:24.600 encourage people to do. Um, you could also like, uh, now if, uh, if people want to, to use, uh, like 13:24.600 --> 13:31.960 remote, um, video or audio solutions, uh, you could encourage them to buy this as a service from 13:31.960 --> 13:37.400 someone who, who, who runs this for you and you can, and you can thereby support, uh, the 13:37.400 --> 13:45.720 development of like Chitzi or a big blue button or, uh, or mumble as audio conference or, or 13:45.720 --> 13:51.240 something like for, for remote meetings, you, you could get that from, from, uh, like open slides. 13:51.240 --> 13:56.200 All of this, you, you can also install it on your own and you, you don't pay anyone for it. 13:56.200 --> 14:02.440 But if, if you do and you, you pay someone for it, then they can, uh, they can also make a living 14:02.440 --> 14:08.120 and further continue to, to develop a software which can then be used by everyone and under certain 14:08.120 --> 14:13.080 circumstances, you don't want to buy this service from them and run it on their server, but you, 14:13.080 --> 14:19.880 you would just like to run it in your own company and maybe also do that yourself. But still, 14:19.880 --> 14:25.400 it might be good for you to, to give, uh, money to that, uh, to that company that they can further 14:25.400 --> 14:31.720 develop it, which also brings us to the next, uh, to the next part. I mean, it's often something 14:31.720 --> 14:38.360 which for, for private people is not so easy to do, but for companies, you can also buy, like, uh, 14:38.360 --> 14:44.280 you can pay for support. Um, you, you just say, you give a certain amount of money to a company 14:44.280 --> 14:50.920 and they make sure that the software runs at 24 hours a day, seven, seven days a week. Or, I mean, 14:51.080 --> 14:58.200 in the case of, of your mother that she can, she can pay someone like you. And, uh, and whenever 14:58.200 --> 15:03.880 she has a problem, she knows that, uh, you can come, you can help her and, uh, and by this, she's 15:03.880 --> 15:09.960 then also supporting, uh, free software because you, you do some other work in this area and, 15:09.960 --> 15:14.680 and can further help to improve the software and there. So there are, there are lots of possibilities. 15:15.640 --> 15:25.400 Oh, yes. We conclude there are loads of ways to pay for free software. And what I also did is, 15:25.400 --> 15:33.800 I encouraged my mother to look at the project website and check out which way they would like to get 15:33.800 --> 15:40.520 some money. Yeah. So I mean, often, uh, for, for some smaller software, you often find that under, 15:40.600 --> 15:46.600 like, uh, to make a donation that you, that you can do it that way. But yeah, if, if you have some 15:46.600 --> 15:52.520 way of doing like subscriptions, uh, some, some of them offer subscriptions, um, some others, uh, 15:52.520 --> 15:58.280 as I said, uh, when they are apps, you can, you can pay on the, in the app market for it. So, 15:58.840 --> 16:05.880 also, if you, if you use, like, uh, if you use certain distributions, uh, where you then don't 16:05.880 --> 16:11.960 have to pay in while you install, as you said, it's good to, to then, uh, encourage people to 16:11.960 --> 16:18.040 think about, like, what is it worth? What I am getting here and how can I continue to support it? 16:18.040 --> 16:24.280 And actually, one, one good way is nowadays also that a lot of Linux distributions, when you, 16:24.280 --> 16:31.000 when you download them, you also have a way to, to pay for it. Like you often very voluntarily 16:31.080 --> 16:36.440 payment that we have some slider where you can decide how much you want to, to give to, to them. 16:36.440 --> 16:41.560 And for some of them, also, you can do a decided a little bit where the money should go, uh, 16:41.560 --> 16:48.120 and how much of the money you give them should be distributed. So in the past, 16:48.120 --> 16:53.240 I've also some community next distribution where you could join some, some club and have a membership 16:53.240 --> 16:59.160 fee there. And by that supporting the further development. I think that's very important because 16:59.160 --> 17:03.800 it's, it's, it's difficult to get good software for you as a private person. 17:04.440 --> 17:10.040 If developers don't make money with private people and they share with private users and they 17:10.040 --> 17:16.200 just make money with the, with the companies, then a lot of the software you as a private user 17:16.200 --> 17:21.880 will get is more like, yeah, we developed that for, for companies. And yeah, you can also use it 17:22.600 --> 17:29.000 as on your, on your private computer. As you know, I've mentioned the companies. 17:30.520 --> 17:36.280 How would you explain that are actually companies out there that earn their money with free software? 17:36.280 --> 17:43.400 I mean, very similar to what I just described. So, I mean, you, you have to, to develop software. 17:43.400 --> 17:50.520 And then there are certain ways on how they are paid for that. So either with, with the services, 17:51.480 --> 17:57.560 with, with education about the software, with making changes to the software because others want 17:57.560 --> 18:03.240 to have something a little bit different than what they have or I mean, also the other part that 18:03.240 --> 18:08.840 there isn't any software out there yet solving the problem for others. So someone asked the 18:08.840 --> 18:15.080 company if they could do that. So, and those are always what, how, how companies can then make 18:15.080 --> 18:21.400 money like with all the proprietary software out there as well. And then some companies they 18:21.400 --> 18:27.000 decided that they want to follow an ethical model or that some of their offerings are following an 18:27.000 --> 18:33.800 ethical model and that they do them as, as free software. I mean, that, that's probably also one, 18:33.800 --> 18:39.160 one, one part you should, you should consider there that it's often very difficult to say that one 18:39.240 --> 18:46.040 company is earning their money with free software because you should rather look at certain offerings 18:46.040 --> 18:49.880 the companies are doing and there are some offerings where they make money with free software. 18:49.880 --> 18:56.120 There are others where then they earn money with proprietary software and proprietary offerings. 18:56.120 --> 19:03.240 So there are a few companies out there who are really 100% just making free software offers. 19:04.120 --> 19:10.440 So that's that's something which which you always, which is it's better to to think about 19:10.440 --> 19:14.680 what of those offerings that the companies are doing offering software instead of thinking like 19:14.680 --> 19:22.440 which of the companies earn money just with free software. Do you have some examples of companies 19:23.240 --> 19:31.800 that do have free software products? For the FSV we always try to to be neutral and not make 19:31.800 --> 19:38.120 advertisement for for certain companies but the the things I mentioned at the beginning for 19:38.120 --> 19:43.640 example from from the different from different software out there. There are companies who provide 19:43.640 --> 19:49.480 services for that and with the backup solutions I said there are companies who develop those tools 19:49.480 --> 19:56.200 and when you and who make money who make money with then providing services on the free software 19:56.360 --> 20:07.320 they develop. So you say we should rather focus on the activity and not so much on our company itself 20:07.320 --> 20:13.000 because there are loads of companies out there. Yes exactly. The important part is more the activity 20:13.000 --> 20:18.680 and not the name of a company. Yes. So for example I would not like now to mention like there is 20:18.680 --> 20:24.040 this company and this is a free software company but I would rather say there are companies which 20:24.040 --> 20:29.960 are offering like take an example which is now very very interesting for a lot of people. 20:30.680 --> 20:37.640 There are companies out there who offer you to to run the free software cheatsy on their servers 20:37.640 --> 20:43.000 and when you when you buy this you're also contributing to developers and maintainers 20:43.000 --> 20:49.800 of the software and thereby helping free software offering to continue to exist and to improve 20:50.360 --> 20:55.800 and the same is then true for like if you stay with video conferences like big blue button then 20:55.800 --> 21:04.520 or audio you have then mumble or there is then other software out there for doing other 21:04.520 --> 21:13.720 remote activities. So basically there are many companies out there earning money with free software 21:13.800 --> 21:19.640 sending services for free software or supporting free software in any other way but 21:20.440 --> 21:25.800 there are also ways for individuals as we covered before but are there any other ways 21:26.600 --> 21:31.080 of earning money with free software or to get funding for free software. 21:33.560 --> 21:41.400 So yeah I mean there are there are some some public funds for this. So for example 21:42.200 --> 21:48.920 the FSFE is also involved in some funds there where governments or other institutions 21:49.480 --> 21:57.480 set up funds to pay or to support the development of free software. For example on the European level 21:57.480 --> 22:04.280 there is the NGI zero and so next generation internet research and innovation actions where 22:04.280 --> 22:11.080 there are two different programs where we as the FSFE are involved and you can you can apply there 22:11.400 --> 22:16.920 and you can get funding and then we as FSFE also help you to make sure that your licenses are 22:16.920 --> 22:21.800 compliant and that everything which comes out there is then really free software. So that's 22:21.800 --> 22:27.640 something that you you can apply for funding like this. There's also another program where we are 22:27.640 --> 22:34.200 in the advisory committee which is the NGI zero pointer program. So that's that's programs where 22:34.200 --> 22:41.000 the European institutions set up money to support free software development and on national 22:41.000 --> 22:47.960 basis for example in Germany I was several years in the in the jury of the prototype fund in 22:47.960 --> 22:54.120 Germany where you can apply as an individual or team and then develop a free software prototypes 22:55.560 --> 23:03.640 different areas and now this this program is also set up in in Switzerland and beside that 23:03.640 --> 23:09.640 there are also other grants out there where you can get funding to develop free software but 23:09.720 --> 23:17.640 that the ones I just mentioned they they have a strong focus on either it's it's mandatory that 23:17.640 --> 23:24.120 you publish your outcome as free software afterwards or that's a very very strong criteria. 23:26.840 --> 23:31.160 So do you think this would cover all the questions your parents would ever have about 23:32.840 --> 23:38.920 the cost for free software and how to pay for it and how to earn money with it or do you think 23:38.920 --> 23:42.920 there would be another question what would be a question that you parents would ask you. 23:46.520 --> 23:52.920 Difficult I'm pretty sure there were there were other questions maybe our listeners can can help 23:52.920 --> 23:58.760 us a little bit to remind us about some questions they received there. I think that a lot of the 23:58.760 --> 24:06.280 questions I which which I talked about with with friends and family that that they were mainly covered 24:06.360 --> 24:13.960 there then of course also some some other questions out there like how can you do very large 24:13.960 --> 24:19.480 innovative steps when you would like to do it with free software how does that work and 24:20.840 --> 24:27.800 some some other question about like competition with proprietary software and so on but I think that 24:27.800 --> 24:34.600 that's all that's awesome questions which which would then merit more like to have to talk about 24:34.680 --> 24:44.920 them in more depth so I think on the main level of friends and family conversations I think we 24:44.920 --> 24:52.840 covered most of the things I encounter now. Some people have some questions they often encounter 24:52.840 --> 25:00.040 yeah just send us an email to podcast at fsv.org and we'll see if we can see that we we can talk 25:00.120 --> 25:08.040 about that another time. Perfect so we will do another episode and talk about some deeper questions. 25:10.920 --> 25:16.040 Thank you Matthias for giving me another perspective on how to answer those questions. 25:17.160 --> 25:24.840 You're welcome. This was the software freedom podcast. If you like this episode please 25:24.920 --> 25:30.200 recommend it to your friends and rated. Also subscribe to make sure you will get the next episode. 25:31.400 --> 25:35.240 Thank you Bonnie. This podcast is presented to you by the free software foundation 25:35.240 --> 25:40.520 Europe where a charity that works in promoting software freedom. If you like our work please 25:40.520 --> 25:46.760 consider supporting us with a donation. You find more information under fsv.org slash donate 25:46.760 --> 25:51.560 and as we covered in this episode I would like to encourage you to also make payments to free 25:51.560 --> 25:56.520 software contributors out there to make sure that they can continue to develop free software 25:56.520 --> 26:01.400 which enables you to use study share and improve it for any purpose and thereby respecting your 26:01.400 --> 26:19.000 freedom. Thank you very much. Bye. Bye.