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Transcript of SFP#8: How to tell my mother that Free Software can cost money?

Back to the episode SFP#8

This is a transcript created with the Free Software tool Whisper. For more information and feedback reach out to podcast@fsfe.org

WEBVTT

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Dear listeners, I regularly talk to my mother about software freedom and general misunderstandings

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in this area, and this is why we had the idea for this podcast.

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We thought about the title and the implications it might have long and hard.

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To be clear, we do not believe that mothers or women need an explanation on technical

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topics more than fathers or men in general.

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For people who do not want to identify with any of those changes.

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But we wanted to talk about something real and not something invented just for the podcast.

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That's why we decided to do the podcast this way for all of you out there who sometimes

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struggle to explain their parents who are not that deep into technology what software

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freedom is.

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Welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.

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This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe, where a charity

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that empowers users to control technology.

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I'm Matthias Kirschner, the president of the Free Software Foundation Europe, and I'm

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doing this podcast together with my colleague, Bernie Merring.

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Hello, Bernie.

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Hello, Matthias.

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Today, we are doing a special episode.

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We are doing an episode about how to tell my mother that free software can cost money.

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This idea came through our conversation because I regularly explain my mother, my passion

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about free software, and also talk to her about some calm misunderstandings.

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So we decided to do a special podcast episode for everyone out there explaining their parents

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how free software works.

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And that's what we will do.

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The first question was can free software cost money?

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How would you explain that free software can cost money?

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Hmm, difficult because I mean for myself, the situation was a little bit different.

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As when I started with free software was in the late 1990s and early 2000s then, I had

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to pay money to get free software.

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Like I paid money to get some Knollinux CDs or DVDs and floppies and I pulled some money

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with friends and we bought them and then we either gave them around so that one of us can

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do the update, the other one can then do the update or when I had then a CD burner, I

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could then use that to duplicate the CD images.

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So we didn't have to wait till one of us was finished with it or if someone had to reinstall

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it again.

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So I think my mother, she saw very early that I had the need for money to get those CDs

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as we didn't have like fast internet connection at the time and so yeah, but if we go back

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and think about like how would I explain the topic now, I always first explain like

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what is free software.

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So yes, free software costs money and second, what is it that defines free software and

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then I always, I would explain like that free software gives you the right to use, study,

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share and improve the software and all of that has nothing to do with the costs.

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So it's just, it's important that the software enables you to use the software for any purpose

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that everybody, your mother, your father, other friends, colleagues and so on that they

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can use it for whatever they want to, second, that they can study how the software works.

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So if they want to, they could understand that a lot of people from you talk, they might

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not be interested in that, but they also benefit from other people looking into this.

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So friends of them who are more into technology, they would like to find out something they

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can better help others and explain them how technology works.

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Then that the, that you can share the software with others.

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So if, for example, you got some Knolynux city that you can pass it on to your mother without

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having to consider anything else about that.

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So you can just do that and that you can also make changes to the software and improve

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the software and adopt it to the need of whoever wants to use the software.

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So if your mother would like to have something different, you might be able to help her and

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make some small modifications to the software so she's able to do that.

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If it's a company, that's a bit more you have to do to make, to fit to their needs maybe.

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So yeah, but, but that's something which is always possible for the software.

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So it's use, study, share and improve.

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And none of that is restricting if you can or if you should pay for the software.

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This was a really good answer.

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I did it a bit different.

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I just explained that you could also donate money for a free software and there are loads

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of projects out there which do need to help from people using the software and then I also

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went to the improved part.

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I explained to her, do you want to have a special feature?

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And this would be only for you.

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You could also pay somebody else to implement it.

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Yeah, so yeah, I mean, I, I rather preferred when I, when I explained it to others to talk

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about voluntary payment.

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If, if you don't have to pay for it, because you, you get quite a lot in return for it.

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You, you get, you get a software for it.

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It's not just that you donate money and they do something for someone else with it, but

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you benefit from it.

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And so, so I, I mean, the FSFE from the beginning, when we were founded in 2001, we encouraged

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people to pay for free software.

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Because we believe that it's important for the further development of free software and

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we think it's also for, for each individual out there, it's important that they give money

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to those who value their freedom and less money to those programmers who write software

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which restricts their freedom.

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So it's, whenever you have the possibility to pay for free software and you have the

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money to do so, we encourage people to actually pay.

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There are some, some other possibilities, like I mean, sometimes we get, we get questions

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like, oh, here in this, for example, in, in this app market, you have to pay for the

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software.

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So this cannot be free software.

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Well, that's, that's not the case.

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There is free software in app stores and you, you have to pay to download it.

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There are also other ways to somehow get the software, compile it yourself, put it on,

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on your, on your mobile.

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But actually, it's a very easy way for you to support the further development that you

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can also benefit from free software in the future.

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So I would always encourage people to, to pay for free software if it's somehow possible.

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Also for, like, my, for, for parents, it's, it's important to, to understand that, I mean,

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when, when I talk about that with my parents or with friends and relatives, I don't want

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them to have the impression that I am, I am working for software which everybody can

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just use free, of course, that's not, that's not what, what, what I'm working for.

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I'm working for software which, which respects the user's freedom, which is important for

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our society, which helps us to, to have a more just society in which I want to live

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in and not society where everybody gets everything for, yeah, great is.

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So that's why I make this point very often in conversations.

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As we now have talked about paying for free software, how do I pay the money for free software?

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So I mean, there, there are different ways.

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So in general, it's, it's not different than, uh, than with proprietary software.

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The only difference is that with free software, you don't pay for a license.

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But all the other means are the same.

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So for example, uh, you can pay for, for the medium, like, I did, uh, when, when I was,

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when, when I started with a software that you, yeah, that you, you buy the CDs, you go,

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uh, you either buy them online, uh, order them somewhere or, uh, you go to a book shop.

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That was also possible and you buy a box with, uh, with a book with the documentation and

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then some kind of Linux CDs and floppies.

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So, uh, that's something you can do.

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Like you could also go out and do the same with proprietary software, just that the software

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is then not respecting, uh, your freedom, uh, and with free software, you get the whole

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package and you are able to, you study, share and improve everything which is in this box.

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So the, the other possibility is that, for example, when you are using a mobile phone, uh,

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and you, you go to the, to the, uh, to the software where you install your, your apps, several

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of them, they have the possibility to also pay for the software there.

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So you pay before installation.

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That's, uh, that's true for, for proprietary app, um, app stores where you then can, can

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just pay two euros, something or five euros, something and then you can easily install

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the software on your, on your mobile and that's also, um, more and more possible with, uh,

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free software, app markets, for example, eftroid, uh, they, they had some option in there

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which enables you to donate and then now they are at the moment also improving this more

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and more that you can have certain payment options to, uh, give back money to, to those

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developing those apps. So that's one other part you, you pay before installation because I mean,

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you could also somehow, uh, install the software on your mobile phone in another way where you

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wouldn't have to pay for it, but you can do it more easily by, by paying for it and thereby

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also supporting the software developers in the long run. Then there's the possibility that you

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could give money, uh, to someone explaining the software to you like, uh, doing an educational

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course, uh, so that you better understand the software, uh, they developed, raise your questions

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there. I mean, you, you could go to seminar or an online seminar or an in-person seminar

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and pay for this. That they explain you, for example, how to use game and in-scape, uh, for, uh,

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improving your, your pictures or creating some graphics. That's something you can, you can do.

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There is, uh, of course, and also in the commercial area, you can also, uh, send your employees to

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one of those trainings. Then there are, uh, possibilities like that that you pay for, for the hardware,

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which is then combined with the software and thereby you also support, uh, the development of

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free software. For example, in the past, uh, I, I bought, uh, network attached storage. So one of

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those boxes, which you can have at home and then make sure that, uh, the music is shared with your,

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with your family again or the pictures you took from, from, uh, from family members is stored

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there in a more secure way than if it's just on some USB drive. And, uh, you, you can buy some

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out there, which are pre-installed with free software. And by doing that, you also support the

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for the development there. Another one is that, uh, when you buy, uh, laptop, which is pre-installed

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with, uh, with Linux or another free operating system, you're also supporting this. Or, uh, in the

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past, I also bought, uh, like, and it was called the OpenMocco, which was one of the, uh, the first,

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uh, free, free software phone out there. And thereby also supporting developers who are working in

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this area. So when, when you buy a hard, uh, certain hardware, people might also benefit from that.

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The, the other possibility then is that you, you buy certain services, which, uh, are run by the

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developers of the software. So, uh, for example, you could also set up your own backup, backup

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storage somewhere, install your own server and so on. But that's very complicated. And most likely,

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I mean, my parents wouldn't do that. But I could encourage them to, to pay for a backup service,

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from, from companies whom I know that they are also involved in free software development. And

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they are then providers out there who are also heavily, uh, developing the tools you, you would

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also else use to make your backups and encrypt that fashion. So that's one, one thing I, I always

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encourage people to do. Um, you could also like, uh, now if, uh, if people want to, to use, uh, like

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remote, um, video or audio solutions, uh, you could encourage them to buy this as a service from

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someone who, who, who runs this for you and you can, and you can thereby support, uh, the

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development of like Chitzi or a big blue button or, uh, or mumble as audio conference or, or

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something like for, for remote meetings, you, you could get that from, from, uh, like open slides.

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All of this, you, you can also install it on your own and you, you don't pay anyone for it.

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But if, if you do and you, you pay someone for it, then they can, uh, they can also make a living

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and further continue to, to develop a software which can then be used by everyone and under certain

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circumstances, you don't want to buy this service from them and run it on their server, but you,

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you would just like to run it in your own company and maybe also do that yourself. But still,

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it might be good for you to, to give, uh, money to that, uh, to that company that they can further

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develop it, which also brings us to the next, uh, to the next part. I mean, it's often something

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which for, for private people is not so easy to do, but for companies, you can also buy, like, uh,

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you can pay for support. Um, you, you just say, you give a certain amount of money to a company

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and they make sure that the software runs at 24 hours a day, seven, seven days a week. Or, I mean,

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in the case of, of your mother that she can, she can pay someone like you. And, uh, and whenever

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she has a problem, she knows that, uh, you can come, you can help her and, uh, and by this, she's

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then also supporting, uh, free software because you, you do some other work in this area and,

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and can further help to improve the software and there. So there are, there are lots of possibilities.

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Oh, yes. We conclude there are loads of ways to pay for free software. And what I also did is,

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I encouraged my mother to look at the project website and check out which way they would like to get

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some money. Yeah. So I mean, often, uh, for, for some smaller software, you often find that under,

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like, uh, to make a donation that you, that you can do it that way. But yeah, if, if you have some

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way of doing like subscriptions, uh, some, some of them offer subscriptions, um, some others, uh,

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as I said, uh, when they are apps, you can, you can pay on the, in the app market for it. So,

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also, if you, if you use, like, uh, if you use certain distributions, uh, where you then don't

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have to pay in while you install, as you said, it's good to, to then, uh, encourage people to

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think about, like, what is it worth? What I am getting here and how can I continue to support it?

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And actually, one, one good way is nowadays also that a lot of Linux distributions, when you,

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when you download them, you also have a way to, to pay for it. Like you often very voluntarily

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payment that we have some slider where you can decide how much you want to, to give to, to them.

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And for some of them, also, you can do a decided a little bit where the money should go, uh,

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and how much of the money you give them should be distributed. So in the past,

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I've also some community next distribution where you could join some, some club and have a membership

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fee there. And by that supporting the further development. I think that's very important because

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it's, it's, it's difficult to get good software for you as a private person.

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If developers don't make money with private people and they share with private users and they

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just make money with the, with the companies, then a lot of the software you as a private user

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will get is more like, yeah, we developed that for, for companies. And yeah, you can also use it

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as on your, on your private computer. As you know, I've mentioned the companies.

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How would you explain that are actually companies out there that earn their money with free software?

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I mean, very similar to what I just described. So, I mean, you, you have to, to develop software.

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And then there are certain ways on how they are paid for that. So either with, with the services,

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with, with education about the software, with making changes to the software because others want

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to have something a little bit different than what they have or I mean, also the other part that

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there isn't any software out there yet solving the problem for others. So someone asked the

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company if they could do that. So, and those are always what, how, how companies can then make

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money like with all the proprietary software out there as well. And then some companies they

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decided that they want to follow an ethical model or that some of their offerings are following an

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ethical model and that they do them as, as free software. I mean, that, that's probably also one,

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one, one part you should, you should consider there that it's often very difficult to say that one

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company is earning their money with free software because you should rather look at certain offerings

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the companies are doing and there are some offerings where they make money with free software.

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There are others where then they earn money with proprietary software and proprietary offerings.

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So there are a few companies out there who are really 100% just making free software offers.

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So that's that's something which which you always, which is it's better to to think about

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what of those offerings that the companies are doing offering software instead of thinking like

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which of the companies earn money just with free software. Do you have some examples of companies

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that do have free software products? For the FSV we always try to to be neutral and not make

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advertisement for for certain companies but the the things I mentioned at the beginning for

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example from from the different from different software out there. There are companies who provide

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services for that and with the backup solutions I said there are companies who develop those tools

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and when you and who make money who make money with then providing services on the free software

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they develop. So you say we should rather focus on the activity and not so much on our company itself

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because there are loads of companies out there. Yes exactly. The important part is more the activity

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and not the name of a company. Yes. So for example I would not like now to mention like there is

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this company and this is a free software company but I would rather say there are companies which

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are offering like take an example which is now very very interesting for a lot of people.

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There are companies out there who offer you to to run the free software cheatsy on their servers

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and when you when you buy this you're also contributing to developers and maintainers

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of the software and thereby helping free software offering to continue to exist and to improve

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and the same is then true for like if you stay with video conferences like big blue button then

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or audio you have then mumble or there is then other software out there for doing other

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remote activities. So basically there are many companies out there earning money with free software

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sending services for free software or supporting free software in any other way but

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there are also ways for individuals as we covered before but are there any other ways

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of earning money with free software or to get funding for free software.

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So yeah I mean there are there are some some public funds for this. So for example

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the FSFE is also involved in some funds there where governments or other institutions

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set up funds to pay or to support the development of free software. For example on the European level

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there is the NGI zero and so next generation internet research and innovation actions where

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there are two different programs where we as the FSFE are involved and you can you can apply there

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and you can get funding and then we as FSFE also help you to make sure that your licenses are

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compliant and that everything which comes out there is then really free software. So that's

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something that you you can apply for funding like this. There's also another program where we are

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in the advisory committee which is the NGI zero pointer program. So that's that's programs where

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the European institutions set up money to support free software development and on national

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basis for example in Germany I was several years in the in the jury of the prototype fund in

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Germany where you can apply as an individual or team and then develop a free software prototypes

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different areas and now this this program is also set up in in Switzerland and beside that

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there are also other grants out there where you can get funding to develop free software but

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that the ones I just mentioned they they have a strong focus on either it's it's mandatory that

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you publish your outcome as free software afterwards or that's a very very strong criteria.

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So do you think this would cover all the questions your parents would ever have about

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the cost for free software and how to pay for it and how to earn money with it or do you think

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there would be another question what would be a question that you parents would ask you.

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Difficult I'm pretty sure there were there were other questions maybe our listeners can can help

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us a little bit to remind us about some questions they received there. I think that a lot of the

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questions I which which I talked about with with friends and family that that they were mainly covered

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there then of course also some some other questions out there like how can you do very large

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innovative steps when you would like to do it with free software how does that work and

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some some other question about like competition with proprietary software and so on but I think that

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that's all that's awesome questions which which would then merit more like to have to talk about

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them in more depth so I think on the main level of friends and family conversations I think we

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covered most of the things I encounter now. Some people have some questions they often encounter

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yeah just send us an email to podcast at fsv.org and we'll see if we can see that we we can talk

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about that another time. Perfect so we will do another episode and talk about some deeper questions.

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Thank you Matthias for giving me another perspective on how to answer those questions.

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You're welcome. This was the software freedom podcast. If you like this episode please

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recommend it to your friends and rated. Also subscribe to make sure you will get the next episode.

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Thank you Bonnie. This podcast is presented to you by the free software foundation

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Europe where a charity that works in promoting software freedom. If you like our work please

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consider supporting us with a donation. You find more information under fsv.org slash donate

25:46.760 --> 25:51.560
and as we covered in this episode I would like to encourage you to also make payments to free

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software contributors out there to make sure that they can continue to develop free software

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which enables you to use study share and improve it for any purpose and thereby respecting your

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freedom. Thank you very much. Bye. Bye.

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