SFP#38: Policy and EU: Free Software Software Stack(s)
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SFP#38: Policy and EU: Free Software Software Stack(s)
WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:26.000 All right. You ready? Yes. Perfect. Then let's dive into this. Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. 00:26.000 --> 00:32.000 This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. We are a charity that 00:32.000 --> 00:38.480 empowers users to take control of technology. I am Bonnie Mehring and I am here with my colleague Alex 00:38.480 --> 00:47.520 today. Hello Bonnie. Nice to be here again. Nice to have you. So we have done this several times now. 00:47.520 --> 00:53.440 You want to tell us what the topic is today? Yes, we want to talk about Free Software stacks in Europe. 00:53.440 --> 01:06.400 You forgot a Free Software software stacks. Indeed. Okay. I am sorry. Not, just Free Software stacks. Yes. 01:07.600 --> 01:17.520 That's how we would call them the whole episode. That will be fun. Yes. Okay. But before we dive 01:17.520 --> 01:25.120 into this whole debate surrounding the Free Software software stacks, I would love for us to cover 01:25.120 --> 01:31.280 a bit of the framework and the background around them. Can you give us some idea what we are talking 01:31.280 --> 01:38.560 about when we are mentioning the word Free Software software stacks? Sure. So a couple of years ago, 01:38.560 --> 01:46.000 a debate about digital sovereignty started. And this digital sovereignty debate also came with some 01:46.000 --> 01:52.640 practical solutions, implementations, and one of those are software stacks. So all our administrations 01:52.640 --> 02:01.680 across Europe do need, let's say, core infrastructure and also on the other hand, software stacks that 02:01.680 --> 02:08.800 help them to follow their administrative tasks. So an office solution. And those kinds of office 02:08.800 --> 02:17.680 solutions are part of such a so-called software stack. So it comes with several solutions. You 02:17.680 --> 02:23.040 want to have video calls. You want to have a writer. You want to have a calendar and so on. 02:23.760 --> 02:30.160 And all of these solutions need to be like in the upper rebel. They need to be integrated so that you 02:30.160 --> 02:36.720 can from your calendar directly send the email or start a voice call with your colleagues. And this 02:37.440 --> 02:44.240 basically or could be basically such a software stack. And all of these software stacks in 02:44.240 --> 02:50.960 light of digital sovereignty are discussed in member states of the European Union as well as 02:50.960 --> 02:55.520 in the European Union itself by the European Commission as well in the parliament in the institutions. 02:56.480 --> 03:04.880 So and the institutions itself, but also administrations, EU, national, regional, local level, 03:04.880 --> 03:12.960 do need such office solutions. And they want to have digital sovereign solutions. And for this, 03:12.960 --> 03:19.840 we do recommend to use Free Software for obvious reasons. What French Free Software stack? 03:21.200 --> 03:26.880 The example for this, how this could look like as this is already very much implemented, 03:26.880 --> 03:31.280 can you give us some background here as well and maybe make this a bit more practical? 03:31.760 --> 03:38.960 Sure. So again, so the debate about digital sovereignty is not very new. It started with 03:38.960 --> 03:45.520 final lines first term. And there we started to debate this digital sovereignty and also already 03:45.520 --> 03:51.200 at this time, we have seen that there are initiatives in several member states where they started to 03:51.920 --> 03:58.880 develop or procure Free Software solutions, particularly made for administrations to allow them 03:59.520 --> 04:07.440 to work in a sovereign environment. And yeah, basically using their own solutions tailored to 04:07.440 --> 04:14.080 their own needs. And for this, they often used Free Software. And also at the same time, 04:14.080 --> 04:20.000 code repositories emerged. So we have seen, for example, in Italy that they came up as a free 04:20.000 --> 04:27.040 software code repository dedicated for administrations. So we are administrations that came up as a 04:27.040 --> 04:33.360 Free Software solution for a specific need, shared those solutions in such repositories that other 04:33.360 --> 04:39.760 administrations could pick them and also reuse them. Obviously, this needs to be Free Software 04:39.760 --> 04:45.680 since the four freedoms of Free Software to use study, share and improve, allow in the 04:45.680 --> 04:52.320 availability, allow sharing and allow that it could be used in as many workstations. Yeah, one 04:52.400 --> 04:59.200 one, for example. So, but also we have seen initiatives in France, in Germany and in other member 04:59.200 --> 05:06.080 states. However, all of this is mainly piecework. It's not really connected to each other. So Italy 05:06.080 --> 05:11.360 does it, France does it, Germany does it, but they do not really collaborate. So and that's one of 05:11.360 --> 05:17.920 the main issues we see that there are initiatives in member states that are quite okay, let's say it, 05:18.560 --> 05:23.840 but the thing is that they, yeah, they basically in their silo, they work on their own, 05:24.640 --> 05:31.600 and for this they are also practical reasons. The very first one is a language thing, but in general, 05:31.600 --> 05:38.640 I'd say a writer, if translated, could be used by every administration, right? So the needs 05:38.640 --> 05:44.640 and the back end is basically always the same. It's just about like making the front and 05:44.640 --> 05:52.160 the translated end to the language. Exactly, and also like it's also about design, so you want to 05:52.160 --> 05:57.280 change logos and stuff like this, right? So, but in general, the solution is always the same. 05:57.920 --> 06:03.520 So, and this is basically where we are. So in Germany, for example, the Center for Digital 06:03.520 --> 06:09.360 Sovereignty (ZenDiS), this is basically a company founded by the government itself, started to come up as 06:09.840 --> 06:14.640 office solution, which is called OpenDesk. We see similar approaches in France, 06:15.600 --> 06:22.240 last week is a call over there, and yeah, and as said, we see piece work here and there and every 06:22.240 --> 06:28.240 member state. We see in particular discussions in every member state, and these discussions have 06:28.240 --> 06:37.040 been speed up since the Trump administration and for obvious reasons. However, it often remains on 06:37.040 --> 06:45.520 such a discussion level, and also in particular, the collaboration cross-border remains more of an 06:45.520 --> 06:53.280 idea instead of like a practical approach at this stage. So, and here a debate, I'd say, one 06:53.280 --> 07:00.080 one and a half year ago, started in the U.K. Parliament, where the so-called EuroStack was 07:00.080 --> 07:07.200 debated initiative by Francesca Prier, for example, who came up with this idea to have such 07:07.200 --> 07:13.200 a European approach towards this, right? So, to like, let these member states initiatives 07:13.200 --> 07:20.080 collaborate and to come up with, yeah, obviously, a European stack, which is then available and 07:20.080 --> 07:26.640 usable and also useful for administrations across Europe, no matter if it's a European, 07:26.640 --> 07:32.400 national, regional, local level. And here the question is, how should such a stack look like? 07:33.120 --> 07:39.440 And here we can see that in the beginning of the debate, it was very much attached to the idea 07:39.440 --> 07:43.680 of coming up with a Free Software solution towards this. Since it's obvious, again, the four 07:43.680 --> 07:50.800 freedoms, you study share and improve, allow us that it's very easy and also basically the only 07:50.800 --> 07:57.680 practical approach towards allowing collaboration across border. However, in the last years, 07:57.680 --> 08:04.960 the debate slightly shifted away from the Free Software idea towards more like European 08:04.960 --> 08:11.200 ideas, let's say it, and there was like a slogan which came up just recently by European. 08:11.840 --> 08:18.160 So, and with this idea, it's more going into the direction that digital sovereignty is everything, 08:18.160 --> 08:24.640 but it's coming from Europe. And not that much if it should be Free Software anymore. So, and that's 08:24.640 --> 08:30.800 one of the main issues we see, but also on the other hand, again, that there is not really 08:30.800 --> 08:36.880 collaboration happening. So, we see in some parts, collaboration, for example, France and Germany 08:36.880 --> 08:42.960 try a collaboration with the last wheat and open desk, so these are solutions. And they want to come 08:42.960 --> 08:51.040 up as a right on solution, which is then shared between both steps, so to say, and could be 08:51.040 --> 08:56.400 integrated in open desk as well as in last week. But again, we see here only two member states 08:56.400 --> 09:02.720 collaborating. And we do not really know how this collaboration should further be enlarged. And 09:02.720 --> 09:10.160 also, we do not really see if it's going out of this like bilateral collaboration. And if it's 09:10.160 --> 09:15.440 we are going to more towards the European approach. This is the state of the debate at the moment. 09:16.000 --> 09:23.760 And what we are trying and also like in procurement and funding debates is to work towards the idea 09:23.760 --> 09:31.520 to stimulate and not subsidize and collaborations across Europe so that the European Union should see 09:32.320 --> 09:39.920 and analyze where in Europe we see developments of Free Software solutions and how they could 09:39.920 --> 09:45.840 collaborate with others doing something similar or who have similar needs at the same time, 09:46.480 --> 09:53.360 bringing them together and making them collaborate. Because this is the advantage of Free Software 09:53.360 --> 09:58.320 that we can collaborate, that we can share resources. And by that, not only come up with the best 09:58.320 --> 10:03.760 solution, but also like particularly on the mid and long run, this is how we can save money. 10:03.760 --> 10:09.600 And this is also how we can be ultimately digital sovereign, right? When we have our own free 10:09.600 --> 10:16.080 software solution, which we can adapt at any time, which we can make it available to every 10:16.080 --> 10:22.480 administration. And by that, we have the control over our own technology or administrations have 10:22.480 --> 10:29.520 the control over their own technology and are able to like change it and adapt it to the specific 10:29.520 --> 10:35.680 needs. So, and this is basically what we want to try to advocate for at the moment. The 10:35.760 --> 10:42.000 this collaboration is stimulated by the European Union and also that member states initiatives are 10:42.000 --> 10:47.680 not being closed down since we have a European solution for this. No, we want these initiatives 10:47.680 --> 10:53.760 in member states, but we want them to collaborate with others in order to have an indoor operable, 10:54.480 --> 11:01.280 European software stack. And that would be our idea of such a Free Software, 11:01.920 --> 11:08.880 software stack on the European level. I was so happy that you mentioned the word Free Software, 11:08.880 --> 11:18.240 software stack. Anyway, okay. So, you mentioned several arguments. Basically, it all comes down 11:18.240 --> 11:28.080 to that we are asking or demanding an coordinated effort. So, I do believe the coordination 11:28.080 --> 11:35.600 should be stimulated. So, it's not that we should start this, I don't know, an approach, 11:35.600 --> 11:41.280 where we say the next five years, we do this and this and this and this. It should still remain 11:41.280 --> 11:48.880 flexible. Also, member states should be able to do whatever they need at the moment. However, 11:49.600 --> 11:56.400 the core idea always must be that it's an indoor operable and that they at least know what's 11:56.400 --> 12:01.520 happening in other member states and that they try to collaborate whenever there is a need to 12:01.520 --> 12:08.160 collaborate. So, let's assume Germany and Italy are working on the same thing. Let's say a video 12:08.160 --> 12:13.200 conferencing tool at the moment and then the European Union knows about this and goes there and say, 12:13.200 --> 12:18.000 look, Italy, Germany, you are both working on the same thing. Don't you want to collaborate? 12:18.000 --> 12:23.360 So, why do you want to come up with two solutions that are different? Let's collaborate here. 12:23.920 --> 12:29.840 Like, if there are good reasons, for example, for Italy and France to say, on this, we 12:30.640 --> 12:37.200 don't want to collaborate that there's no force to do so. That's the one thing, but also, 12:37.200 --> 12:43.280 let's use the example of Jitsi and Big Blue Button. So, we want that Jitsi and Big Blue Button 12:43.280 --> 12:48.320 are out there for administrations and then administration can pick whatever they do believe is 12:48.320 --> 12:53.520 the best solution for them. However, it is important that both video conferencing solutions work 12:53.520 --> 13:00.640 together. So, there is a possibility for the ones using Big Blue Button also being able to 13:00.640 --> 13:06.640 communicate with the ones using Jitsi without any major issues, right? So, it should be easy 13:07.280 --> 13:12.720 to collaborate cross-border with other administrations even if they use other Free Software solutions. 13:12.720 --> 13:18.080 So, it's not, and this is, I think the core idea here, it's not about this one stack so that 13:18.080 --> 13:24.720 everyone uses this one and only solution. It's more about that we integrate all the existing 13:24.720 --> 13:30.640 solutions out there and making them in the upper level that both of them can communicate. 13:30.640 --> 13:37.280 And for this, we need open standards, we need open APIs, and ultimately Free Software in order to 13:37.360 --> 13:43.600 allow this collaboration. And this is what I mean, it's like stimulating it and making it happen 13:43.600 --> 13:50.640 that this cross-border collaboration could happen. And this means, let's say, Germany and France 13:50.640 --> 13:55.040 are working with the Jitsi solution Italy and Spain are working with Big Blue Button. 13:55.600 --> 14:00.000 Those two countries should come up with their Big Blue Button or Jitsi solution. 14:00.000 --> 14:04.800 And then the union should step in and make sure that both of these solutions can talk to each other. 14:04.800 --> 14:17.040 Now, I think I understood the thing or the frame. Let's say the idea. Now, I understood the idea. 14:17.040 --> 14:22.640 You have to be behind this argument of collaboration and stimulating collaboration. 14:23.360 --> 14:29.280 So, it's more about that there's still a wide choice, but that we can actually still work 14:29.360 --> 14:36.000 together and have the interoperability. Exactly. So, we don't procure this one European stack for 14:36.000 --> 14:45.520 every administration across all over Europe. We still allow national or regional or local ideas 14:45.520 --> 14:52.160 and also like depending on their needs, whatever they need. So, they should have, ultimately, 14:52.160 --> 14:58.080 every administration should have software tailored to their needs. However, this software still needs 14:58.080 --> 15:05.360 to be interoperable with other solutions of other administrations that have another focus, 15:05.360 --> 15:10.320 let's say. So, and for this, it's very important to not say like this is the one and only 15:10.320 --> 15:18.800 solution for everyone, but we want to have several solutions being able to compete, to be innovative 15:19.360 --> 15:25.920 and to allow also like further development. And then administrations can say, I am going to 15:25.920 --> 15:30.480 migrate my system now over to a GT because I've seen this is working way better for me. 15:31.200 --> 15:36.480 And this should be easy so they should be able to go to a code repository, for example, 15:36.480 --> 15:41.200 and say, let's integrate this and remove the big to button or the other way around. 15:41.200 --> 15:46.480 Or they say, I am totally happy with my big to button. However, I acknowledge that the people 15:46.480 --> 15:51.280 over there are using GT because they started the development, I don't know, five years ago. 15:51.360 --> 15:56.240 Why should they now switch everything? So, for this, they need to be interoperable. So, 15:56.240 --> 16:05.200 it needs to be able for them to still communicate via several software solutions. And this should 16:05.200 --> 16:13.280 be all part of the stack. So, now we talked about a bit about the arguments that VZ and the points 16:13.360 --> 16:21.760 that we demand or give voice to. How is this received and what's the current, how do you think 16:21.760 --> 16:26.960 it's going? Because we already talked about the current debate surrounding all of this by European 16:26.960 --> 16:33.040 dimension and all of this. Let's bring this together. Where are we heading Alex? 16:33.920 --> 16:38.720 So, and that's yeah, that's basically one of the issues I see at the moment. So, while it was like, 16:38.800 --> 16:46.080 let's say a couple of years ago, the idea to have such a European solution was very received. 16:46.080 --> 16:51.600 People understood why there is a need for this. But this also at the same time led to national 16:51.600 --> 16:56.800 debates. And we can see this very clearly in Germany at the moment where they want to come 16:56.800 --> 17:04.480 up with a German stack. So, and here I fear that we end up in silos instead of like collaborating. 17:05.200 --> 17:12.000 So, I said it's a good idea if every member state has their own approach to things. However, 17:12.960 --> 17:19.200 again, if someone is working on such a stack, let's say France and Germany need a writer, 17:19.200 --> 17:25.920 so why shouldn't they collaborate on this? So, and the more we go towards this, the more we can 17:25.920 --> 17:31.280 collaborate, the more we can have shared procurement, even cross-border shared procurement, 17:31.280 --> 17:37.440 and by thus we can build on the benefits of Free Software and, for example, save money on the 17:37.440 --> 17:48.000 mid and long run. But if we now go and say, we come up with 27, sorry, if we now start to come 17:48.000 --> 17:54.080 up with a own software stack in each member state, then it's very more difficult to achieve this 17:54.080 --> 17:59.680 collaboration, to achieve this interoperability, because then everyone is going back to the silo, 18:00.560 --> 18:06.240 working on their own, saying like, now we have this shiny national stack, but how is this 18:06.240 --> 18:12.000 interoperability with others? Why didn't you collaborate on the procurement or development of 18:12.000 --> 18:18.560 bits of these stacks where you see like other member states have similar needs at the moment? 18:18.560 --> 18:24.800 And this is what I fear at the moment, so this is shifting away from like this European idea, 18:24.800 --> 18:31.440 this European software stack, which is coming with several solutions. However, this could end up in, 18:31.440 --> 18:37.760 yeah, national software stacks that are maybe nice to have for this member state, 18:38.400 --> 18:44.480 but not too nice for like a European approach towards this, also the Buy European debate. 18:44.480 --> 18:50.640 So decision makers more and more want to be independent from in particular US tech, 18:50.720 --> 18:57.440 which is reasonable, and which is also good idea, I do believe. However, if we then just switch 18:57.440 --> 19:04.720 the vendor lock in from US to European union companies, that won't help us. So the simple idea of 19:04.720 --> 19:10.560 buying European doesn't mean that it's interoperable, but doesn't mean that it is Free Software. 19:10.560 --> 19:16.240 So and this is something which we see in the debate that there is a shift from a way of this 19:16.240 --> 19:23.120 Free Software thing towards a general by European idea. So and this by European doesn't mean that 19:23.120 --> 19:27.680 there is collaboration, it just means pick something from European company. And there are also 19:27.680 --> 19:34.480 European companies that do not really value the idea of Free Software, for example. So this means 19:34.480 --> 19:40.400 you can easily end up in another vendor lock in, which is a European vendor lock in, 19:40.480 --> 19:46.400 which won't help you in the mid and long run. It might help with some problems, for example, 19:46.400 --> 19:52.720 that it's hosted in the European union, which is a good idea, but however, it's not coming with 19:52.720 --> 19:59.280 four freedoms to use that to share and improve. But just this idea of like whatever comes from 19:59.280 --> 20:05.520 Europe is at the same time so right. And this is not the case. And this is something which we try to 20:05.520 --> 20:12.400 counter in the debate saying first Free Software as something global. Second, you do not want to run 20:12.400 --> 20:19.040 in a European vendor lock in. And for this, ultimately, you always have to say it needs to be free 20:19.040 --> 20:25.680 software. So best case is you buy Free Software in Europe. However, if the Free Software is coming 20:25.680 --> 20:33.520 from somewhere else, also fun. As there are the four freedoms and they guarantee the access to the 20:34.080 --> 20:40.320 software. Precisely. And also here we need to say we need to enlarge our capacities step by step. 20:40.320 --> 20:46.000 So it's also not that we have millions of companies in Europe that have competitive solutions. 20:46.000 --> 20:51.360 We have to stimulate that market in order to come up with Free Software companies in Europe. 20:51.360 --> 20:56.960 That can provide such solutions. And for this, we need to invest in Dutch companies and not 20:56.960 --> 21:02.560 in random European companies that bring you basically in another vendor lock. 21:05.360 --> 21:12.480 Do you have the feeling that those arguments are paid attention to or what do you think it's happening 21:12.480 --> 21:21.680 here? So this is it's very hard to say. I see that there are more and more arguments and more 21:22.160 --> 21:29.920 decision makers shifting away from the, let's say, openness towards the u-p-ness of something. 21:29.920 --> 21:35.680 So it's a slight shift at the moment. It's not that there is a majority for this already. 21:36.240 --> 21:41.600 At the same time, there's also not a majority for the Free Software idea. So this is our fight. 21:41.600 --> 21:46.240 We will definitely have this fight in the upcoming procurement reform. We also have this 21:46.240 --> 21:52.640 find around precisely those stacks. And also here, maybe this is a very interesting point. 21:53.360 --> 22:01.520 I think a couple of weeks ago, we discussed the NGI funding case where the funding for 22:01.520 --> 22:08.160 Free Software was removed to benefit AI. And this is also such a shift. However, here in the 22:08.160 --> 22:13.760 European Commission, they say we don't want to support Pittsburgh, but rather contribute to such a 22:13.840 --> 22:19.840 stack. So and then at the same time, we see that they are shifting money away from Free Software 22:19.840 --> 22:28.160 towards AI. So this is not to another thing that we often see mass births driving such debates 22:28.160 --> 22:34.560 from quite a while. So we have the bio-pinsing, we have everything needs to be AI. And by 22:34.560 --> 22:40.480 thus Free Software is pushed more and more out of the debate. So and this is something which we 22:40.480 --> 22:48.400 need to counter. And this is also why we whenever we talk about the stacks tell everyone it needs to be 22:48.400 --> 22:54.240 Free Software to end up in this one to basically one. So if you if you go to decision makers and talk 22:54.240 --> 23:00.320 to them what they basically want, they talk about Free Software. So they don't name it Free Software, 23:00.320 --> 23:04.880 but basically they want to have it in the upper levels. They want to have a server and solution 23:04.880 --> 23:10.320 and so on and so forth. However, they are more and more shifting away from the Free Software 23:10.320 --> 23:16.160 wording in this debate going towards other direction. And this could then ultimately mean if it's 23:16.160 --> 23:22.960 text that you then if you in administration that wants to procure something is ending up with something 23:22.960 --> 23:28.240 which is not Free Software, but coming from Europe and by thus it's all fine and they proceed. 23:28.800 --> 23:34.480 So here we need to be very close in the debate and make sure that these criteria 23:35.040 --> 23:40.320 at least always end up in a Free Software solution. So that it's not possible to procure 23:40.320 --> 23:46.320 something else, but that you need to procure or develop Free Software in order to come up as such 23:46.320 --> 23:52.960 as a rune solution. So we debate around the terms of Renate but it ultimately needs. And here we 23:52.960 --> 23:58.560 try to make sure that it's always connected to for freedoms and that's that the procurement always 23:58.560 --> 24:02.800 ends up in a Free Software solution. This will be a hard debate. I mean there are also players on the 24:02.800 --> 24:09.680 other side who have other ideas. In particular, we see that decision makers that are 24:11.040 --> 24:19.760 I'd say more familiar with the digital topics, more eager to understand our arguments. 24:20.400 --> 24:25.040 However, it's also debated on high level at the moment, right? So as said, 24:25.040 --> 24:29.280 also our final line commission president debates this in member states president, 24:30.080 --> 24:35.200 president and chancellor's debate about sovereignty. And here we have seen in the in the 24:35.200 --> 24:42.640 recent years we have seen shifts and these are coming basically from other lobbyists removing 24:42.640 --> 24:49.760 those Free Software words, bringing in more loopholes in order to allow procurement of other non 24:49.760 --> 24:55.520 Free Software solutions. And this is basically a problem and this will be a strong fight which we 24:55.600 --> 25:03.360 will take I guess for the next years. This is a short break for our own cause. Thank you for 25:03.360 --> 25:09.040 listening to the software freedom podcast, working for software freedom and producing podcasts 25:09.040 --> 25:16.240 costs money. Please consider supporting us with a donation on the fsfe.org slash donate and 25:16.240 --> 25:24.160 then the show notes. This will be a strong fight which we will take I guess for the next years 25:24.160 --> 25:30.640 and this is where we are also very close to like the developments of sorts such stacks so we 25:30.640 --> 25:36.400 closely follow what's happening in Germany for example or in France or in Italy to see 25:36.400 --> 25:41.440 what the ultimately come up with. And at the moment we have seen that they found a practical 25:41.520 --> 25:47.120 approach towards this. So they connected pretty much to their code repositories. So they say 25:48.400 --> 25:54.720 it needs to be procured and needs to be ultimately in the code repository available. And those 25:54.720 --> 26:02.560 code repositories then say look you can only bring in your solution if it's one of these licenses 26:02.560 --> 26:08.720 for example and all of them are Free Software licenses. So but what happens if those rules of 26:08.800 --> 26:14.320 these code repositories are changed. So it's a smart idea in the first place but it could also 26:14.320 --> 26:22.160 easily end up in oh now we see that there's a solution it's not fully Free Software but how do we 26:22.160 --> 26:27.520 print this in the code repository are we change the rules of the code repository. So if you attach 26:28.560 --> 26:35.440 software only to the code repository without coming up with further criteria then you might end up 26:35.440 --> 26:42.320 in a world where those code repositories might in the future also allow other non-Free Software 26:43.040 --> 26:48.000 in these repositories and that would be a problem. So and this is the level of detailed 26:48.000 --> 26:54.640 fight we are picking at the moment. So there are smart ideas to close loop holes but we also have 26:54.640 --> 26:59.920 to think about the future and make sure that those loop holes are closed forever. So and these are 26:59.920 --> 27:05.280 the debates we are running at the moment. So it's a lot of needy-queasy. We type over words we 27:05.280 --> 27:12.640 fight over ideas and trying to again go to decision makers and make them understand that Free Software 27:12.640 --> 27:20.960 is the only way how to come up is basically what they want. So this sounds like a lot of work to 27:20.960 --> 27:26.880 be honest to follow up and to safeguard Free Software. I mean that's the basic argument you 27:26.880 --> 27:32.560 brought forward is that we want to safeguard Free Software in all of those Free Software 27:32.560 --> 27:39.200 software stacks and make sure that the loop holes are closed and not celebrating small steps but 27:39.200 --> 27:45.840 being those who say stop. There is a potential weakness and we really need to pay attention 27:45.840 --> 27:51.760 to this and as you already said there are several debates and several member states going on. 27:52.400 --> 28:01.520 So well have fun Alex. Yeah yeah I do have. In this regard this is also a call to our listeners. 28:02.000 --> 28:08.080 If you see stack debates ongoing in your member states where you say here are upcoming loop holes 28:08.720 --> 28:15.040 please share them with us so that we can address them. So for us it's not too easy to follow 28:15.040 --> 28:20.720 like every minus step in every member state we try to do so but for this we always need the help 28:20.720 --> 28:26.000 of you guys and also our volunteers and for this please whenever you see something like this 28:26.080 --> 28:33.280 please share this with us. So because this helps us to address those issues and to also like yeah 28:33.280 --> 28:38.480 try to to modify those attempts. Also at the same time what we are doing is to look for best 28:38.480 --> 28:45.760 practices. So if you see a very good idea in your member state how a loop hole is addressed and fixed 28:45.760 --> 28:50.400 this is also something which is of high importance for us because then we can use this as a 28:50.720 --> 28:56.160 best practice for other member states and tell them look this could be a solution how you can fix 28:56.160 --> 29:03.600 this loop hole in your strategy in your law and make sure that you ultimately do come up as a free 29:03.600 --> 29:13.520 software software. I also have a call for action in this regard as it nicely fits in with our 29:13.520 --> 29:19.360 public money public code campaign. If you have not signed our open letter there please feel free 29:19.360 --> 29:25.120 to do so you find the link in the show notes. Alex you want to talk about why it fits in with 29:25.120 --> 29:30.640 public money public code. Sure I mean it's obvious it's with our public money public code initiative 29:30.640 --> 29:38.320 we try to convince decision makers, administrations across Europe to come up with rules and in particular 29:38.320 --> 29:45.040 also implement those rules that whenever taxpayers money is used the solution should be available 29:45.120 --> 29:53.760 for everyone and for us obviously again Free Software is the way to go and this initiative is 29:53.760 --> 30:01.840 very successful we even see references in laws and strategies towards this and I think it's also a 30:01.840 --> 30:09.520 good idea to follow these principles of public money public code in order to come up with a digital 30:09.520 --> 30:14.960 sovereign solution which is then not only tailored to your needs but where you have to control 30:14.960 --> 30:22.640 over technology and with this campaign it's an umbrella initiative if you like which is used to go 30:22.640 --> 30:30.480 in several different than precise debates around the stack but also about procurement funding 30:30.480 --> 30:36.640 even in the cyber resilience act we are using those kinds of arguments so and this initiative helps 30:37.280 --> 30:43.360 to first of all make it understandable for decision makers what this concept of Free Software means 30:43.920 --> 30:50.960 what are the benefits and then once they understood this go into the details of specific laws 30:50.960 --> 30:58.240 strategies whatever and try to come as close as possible towards those ideas of public money 30:58.320 --> 31:06.880 public code however we see that there are often rules with loopholes and now it's on us to close those 31:06.880 --> 31:16.080 loopholes so often it sets Free Software should be procured if there are not I don't know security 31:16.080 --> 31:22.000 reasons for example so it's very hard to get away from this wording however what we propose is 31:22.720 --> 31:29.120 if there are such security reasons then they should be explained in writing and should 31:29.120 --> 31:35.680 be checked by another institution if they are valid and also should be it should be possible to 31:35.680 --> 31:42.240 counter those and for this for example we can bring in the court of auditors who check if there is 31:42.240 --> 31:48.160 a really a need to not procure Free Software and this is what I mean this closing those loopholes 31:48.160 --> 31:53.760 so maybe we need to attach other loopholes so that we are going to this Free Software first approach 31:54.400 --> 32:00.880 and then if administrations for whatever reason do not procure or develop Free Software then they 32:00.880 --> 32:07.600 need to explain why they are not doing this and this this paperwork they will also understand step 32:07.600 --> 32:12.160 by step that there are not really those kind of arguments around and going more towards the 32:12.160 --> 32:16.960 direction of public money public code and this is why this campaign is so important and also a 32:16.960 --> 32:23.040 nice benefit for you if you sign it you can also register for email updates and but as we will 32:23.040 --> 32:29.360 keep you updated about our progress and also to push for public money public code across Europe. 32:30.400 --> 32:35.440 Perfect thank you very much I like thank you very much for the time I really hope that we 32:36.000 --> 32:42.560 get loads of best practices but I also know it's very important that we get a report of the 32:42.560 --> 32:48.640 programs and all but yeah maybe we have some very very positive news the next time hopefully 32:49.520 --> 32:57.760 we are working towards it yes you are okay in light of the time I would say we close it thank you 32:57.760 --> 33:02.880 so much for being here thank you so much for taking the time and yeah walking us through the free 33:02.880 --> 33:11.840 software software stack thanks for all these a pleasure all right this was the software freedom 33:11.840 --> 33:17.200 podcast if you liked this episode please recommend it to your friends and rated it 33:18.320 --> 33:22.800 stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance of software freedom 33:22.800 --> 33:29.120 and its impact on our digital lives this podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation 33:29.120 --> 33:36.480 Europe and we are a charity that works on promoting software freedom if you like our work like 33:36.560 --> 33:44.000 us following up and safeguarding Free Software in the Free Software stack so please support us 33:45.120 --> 33:53.360 you can do so by donating to us you find more information under fsfe.org/donate and if this 33:53.360 --> 33:58.560 is financially not possible for you you can share the podcast on social media rated or 33:58.560 --> 34:05.440 contribute to the fsfe.org as a volunteer by for example sending us best practice examples 34:06.240 --> 34:12.240 or reporting programs you see the Free Software software stack in your country thank you so 34:12.240 --> 34:18.480 much for listening to us and we will be back in your ears next month bye bye 34:18.480 --> 34:28.720 hi I am Øjvind I help out as one of the producers of the software freedom podcast 34:29.600 --> 34:34.480 along with Bonnie I work on the audio and editing for the software freedom podcast and try to make 34:34.480 --> 34:41.600 it as nice and shiny as possible for you all using Free Software tools of course I am doing this 34:41.600 --> 34:47.600 as a volunteer for the FSFE this is one of the ways I've found i can help with getting the message 34:47.600 --> 34:54.080 of software freedom out there I am dropping by here to encourage you to do the same volunteer your 34:54.080 --> 34:59.840 particular set of skills to the FSFE and help further the course of software freedom along with a great 34:59.840 --> 35:06.080 group of helpful and kind people you can find more information on how to contribute as a volunteer 35:06.080 --> 35:25.760 under fsfe.org/contribute see you out there